EF masses today

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I’ll be going to my first solemn high mass this coming sunday in St. Louis, so I’ll post then what I find. I went to a low mass in Springfield MO at noon, the day before thanksgiving. It was in a small side chapel, but about 20 people were there, with a number of little kids and people in their 20’s-30’s.
 
Generally, when a parish is set up (like an FSSP or ICRSS parish) for the EF exclusively, they do very, very well.

I’ve noticed that bi-ritual parishes are hit or miss with attendance. If it’s the type of parish where the schedule goes something like: “Every third Sunday at 8 PM except in November and March, and also except in every other leap year beginning with 1988 except if that leap year is 1996 and when the vernal equinox and the big dipper…,” etc., then those don’t really do very well. I’ve noticed that in bi-ritual parishes where there is a strong, consistent schedule, such as every day or at least on all Sundays and Solemnities and usually some weekdays, then attendance is also usually strong.

Take a parish here in SC, Prince of Peace in Taylors, for example. It is a bi-ritual parish served by a very young, bright Spanish-American man (under 30) as pastor and an older priest (50 or so) as parochial vicar. They are both very recently ordained men and there is a daily EF and OF, and also one EF (many times two) on Sundays alongside the OFs. The daily masses are low masses and the Sunday masses are high or solemn masses, and if there are two on a Sunday, one is also a low mass. Basically, there are EFs every single day of the week, and whenever there is a Solemnity on a weekday, be it a Holy Day of Obligation or not, there is also an EF high or solemn mass. The reason it works here is because there is very strong support from the priests (they are not on the fence about it at all) and the bishop, HE Robert Guglielmone, has given his full support. The two parish deacons are also on board and they are actively learning the ropes themselves right now. At first, there was a moderate amount of backlash from some of the parishioners, but that has pretty much gone away. I hear that they regularly do EF requiems with chant and/or polyphony, and have also done some nuptial EFs as well lately. It’s really the model diocesan parish for the EF in the South, IMO. They offer practically all of the sacraments in the EF except confirmation, for now at least, until the bishop learns the EF. They also do extremely good OFs. They are the model parish regarding liturgy for the entire state, IMO. Their liturgies, whether EF or OF, are always extremely beautiful. Voraciously smoking censers, polyphony and chant (although not excluding regular hymns), theologically-rooted yet accessible homilies, energetic priests.

So, it depends, really. They don’t always do well, but they usually do or there wouldn’t be one in the first place.
 
YTC,

Glad to hear it!

The daily Masses I go to in the EF easily have as many, or more, than the daily OF Mass at a much larger parish where I attend RCIA.

The kicker isn’t raw numbers though, but, the percentage those numbers offer in relation to the whole.

Percentage being factored, the EF here is exploding in comparison to the dwindling to dying OF daily Mass.

I’m sure there are many factors for this, but just between the two parishes the comparison is very positive for the EF. The community which is OF only is actually 3 parishes together, with the main parish having a lackluster turnout- the smaller parishes in that community are similarly suffering in attendance and offerings. The FSSP parish seems to be growing quite well with no sign of stopping, from what I understand of its history.

Here’s a sad fact: the Diocese of Colorado Springs only ordained 4 new priests last year. It is my hope to see that number grow, and if it means I end up finding myself called to step up to the plate in search of this dream’s fruition, well, I gave up the ego trip of Protestantism, so who knows. I can say this, if I end up being called to the Priesthood, it will be with FSSP if I get a choice in the matter.

Being that our parish is relatively new, only a few years old, I’m hoping the younger guys who are doing an excellent job as Altar boys will be called to be priests to continue the access to the EF Mass.

That being said, the parochial vicar of the tri-community has personally told me that if the FSSP parish was not in town, he would get trained up on the EF and offer it as he would feel it his pastoral duty. So, while I have certain personal issues with the OF, it’s men like him that keep me going back to work through those issues.

I guess I’ll put it this way: no matter which form you attend, try to grow it! If people like myself can’t find worship in the OF, there’s the EF. If the EF is just impossible for someone, there’s the OF. What there shouldn’t be is rivalry. I think this would best be accomplished through Bishops instructing their flock, as well as the priests, as well as the Bishops reimplementing their knowledge of the EF. To have the diocesan flock see the Bishop celebrating the EF can only send a positive message which in no way detracts from the OF.
 
Hi,

I go to a High Mass once and a while at Sleepy Hollow. It is a smallish church and was well attended. Families with several or more children, young adults and senior citizens. I found it encouraging. I love this Mass and try to get there at least once in 6 weeks. It is a fair distance from me and the closest one.
 
I assist at a diocesan TLM once a month-usually around 100 in a Cathedral that seats 375 [Raleigh Cathedral smallest in the lower 48]

An FSSPX Mass twice or thrice per month-around 100 in a chapel that seats 125

Novus Ordo once per month-around 50 in a church that seats about 300.
 
jonbhorton said:
The daily Masses I go to in the EF easily have as many, or more, than the daily OF Mass at a much larger parish where I attend RCIA.

The kicker isn’t raw numbers though, but, the percentage those numbers offer in relation to the whole.

Percentage being factored, the EF here is exploding in comparison to the dwindling to dying OF daily Mass.

I’m sure there are many factors for this, but just between the two parishes the comparison is very positive for the EF. The community which is OF only is actually 3 parishes together, with the main parish having a lackluster turnout- the smaller parishes in that community are similarly suffering in attendance and offerings. The FSSP parish seems to be growing quite well with no sign of stopping, from what I understand of its history.
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A few things you didn’t consider in here:
  1. The EF Crowd averages out to be older, and older people have a better mass attendance rate in both the OF and the EF.
  2. Those who cling to the EF tend to be the zealously conservative element of the church, which means their personality is more likely to influence their attendance at mass than their chosen rite.
  3. There is only one parish offering the EF, and three offering the OF. That means that on weekdays, the OF parishoners are split up and the EF are not. This is compounded during the weekend, when there is likely 1 EF mass at 1 parish, while there are probably multiple masses held at each OF parish in your diocese.
  4. OF mass attendance is actually on the nationally, while the EF’s attendance varies by region. This is because the youngest age group of adults (18-30) attend mass more devoutly that any other age group short of the 65+ crowd. It’s simple social dynamics.
Here’s a sad fact: the Diocese of Colorado Springs only ordained 4 new priests last year. It is my hope to see that number grow, and if it means I end up finding myself called to step up to the plate in search of this dream’s fruition, well, I gave up the ego trip of Protestantism, so who knows. I can say this, if I end up being called to the Priesthood, it will be with FSSP if I get a choice in the matter.

Being that our parish is relatively new, only a few years old, I’m hoping the younger guys who are doing an excellent job as Altar boys will be called to be priests to continue the access to the EF Mass.
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I blame this largely on the fact that families are having so few children today. When there is only one son to “carry on the family name”, it’s HIGHLY unlikely that parents (especially fathers) will want to encourage a child to go into the priesthood. Same goes with daughters, as they too fall into the scale of gene survival.
I guess I’ll put it this way: no matter which form you attend, try to grow it! If people like myself can’t find worship in the OF, there’s the EF. If the EF is just impossible for someone, there’s the OF. What there shouldn’t be is rivalry. I think this would best be accomplished through Bishops instructing their flock, as well as the priests, as well as the Bishops reimplementing their knowledge of the EF. To have the diocesan flock see the Bishop celebrating the EF can only send a positive message which in no way detracts from the OF.
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Thank you for this, very well stated.
 
promethius said:
A few things you didn’t consider in here:
  1. The EF Crowd averages out to be older, and older people have a better mass attendance rate in both the OF and the EF.
  2. Those who cling to the EF tend to be the zealously conservative element of the church, which means their personality is more likely to influence their attendance at mass than their chosen rite.
  3. There is only one parish offering the EF, and three offering the OF. That means that on weekdays, the OF parishoners are split up and the EF are not. This is compounded during the weekend, when there is likely 1 EF mass at 1 parish, while there are probably multiple masses held at each OF parish in your diocese.
  4. OF mass attendance is actually on the nationally, while the EF’s attendance varies by region. This is because the youngest age group of adults (18-30) attend mass more devoutly that any other age group short of the 65+ crowd. It’s simple social dynamics.
I blame this largely on the fact that families are having so few children today. When there is only one son to “carry on the family name”, it’s HIGHLY unlikely that parents (especially fathers) will want to encourage a child to go into the priesthood. Same goes with daughters, as they too fall into the scale of gene survival.

Thank you for this, very well stated.
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This is a very well thought out and lucid post.

My comments in the past stating that contraception was the root cause of decline in vocations to the priesthood was, to put it politely, not well recieved by some.

Congratulations on an excellent post.

-Tim-
 
promethius said:
  1. The EF Crowd averages out to be older,
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Satistic?

Since the TLM is a deliberate choice, as opposed to a default option or learned habit, it stands to reason that only mature persons are capable of making that choice; therefore, we should expect to find informed and older persons at the EF. Again, the TLM is an issue that requires i) pompting and provision of necessary initial information and, finally, ii) deliberation and determination on the part of the person before attendance even becomes a possibility (in most cases assumed).

Further, it usually requires (above mental labour) additional physical labour or at least time investment and monetary expense to attend the EF, as it is not, on average, as accessible as the OF. Naturally younger people are more liable to lack the means to be able to religiously attend the Old Mass; therefore, we should not be surprised if older persons, who are more likely to enjoy the means to attend the EF, also predominate at the EF.

The EF, it can and should be argued, under present policy, is prejudiced against young persons and teenagers by reason of its lower accessibility especially. The fact that, in spite of these obstacles to the EF that it has, nonetheless, grown and expanded is a credit to the zeal it either attracts or inspires and potentially confirms.
promethius said:
  1. Those who cling to the EF tend to be the zealously conservative element…
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This comment is loaded with prejudice and inuendo and therefore needs not be addressed. The word “cling” gives the impression that they are fighting against some natural law; the word “element” suggests an intention to marginalize, while the addition of the political label “conservative” suggests divisiveness or a political inuendo (on their part) that has been by no means substantiated with any evidence.
promethius said:
  1. There is only one parish offering the EF, and three offering the OF. That means that on weekdays, the OF parishoners are split up and the EF are not. This is compounded during the weekend, when there is likely 1 EF mass at 1 parish, while there are probably multiple masses held at each OF parish in your diocese.
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As was already demonstrated above, this observation can be argued as much in favour for the EF as it can be used to relativize it.
promethius said:
  1. OF mass attendance is actually on the nationally, while the EF’s attendance varies by region. This is because the youngest age group of adults (18-30) attend mass more devoutly that any other age group short of the 65+ crowd. It’s simple social dynamics.
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Statistic?

This remark does not seem to make sense. We would assume that all regions (i.e., the nation) have 18-30 year olds and persons above the age of 65. Are you suggesting that the alleged peculiarly EF regions have more senior citizens?
promethius said:
I blame this largely on the fact that families are having so few children today.
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Assuming you mean Catholic families, then the usual observation that Catholic families attending the EF tend to have more children suggests a relationship between that attendance and adherence to Church teaching in regards to the family. We can, therefore, expect more young persons attending the EF and also the increased likelihood of religious vocations; regardless, the power of nature being what it is, we can expect a dispraportionate increase in attendence at the EF if the observation that those who attend the EF tend to have more children (than their OF counterparts) is true. In time, of course, we can logically expect even a majority.
 
promethius said:
A few things you didn’t consider in here:
**
  1. The EF Crowd averages out to be older, and older people have a better mass attendance rate in both the OF and the EF. **
At the daily EF, I am often amongst the company of similarly aged people. The daily OF, however, I am basically 2 generations away from all attendees.
  1. **Those who cling to the EF tend to be the zealously conservative element of the church, which means their personality is more likely to influence their attendance at mass than their chosen rite. **
Political/social viewpoints do not necessitate attendance. There are many liberal types in the Social Justice section of CAF which I understand attend Mass a lot. The only way I can literally read your statement is that it infers the EF crowd are more devout by default of their personality in the Latin Rite than the OF crowd of the same rite. Is that what you’re stating? How so? Instead, I would argue it is much less likely for an attendee of the EF to be poorly catechized, thus leading to more devotion through the realization of the gravity of the situation we all face.

3)** There is only one parish offering the EF, and three offering the OF. That means that on weekdays, the OF parishoners are split up and the EF are not. This is compounded during the weekend, when there is likely 1 EF mass at 1 parish, while there are probably multiple masses held at each OF parish in your diocese.**

The main parish within the community, the one which is in the geographical heart of the community’s boundaries and demographic focus, has less to equal attendance in raw numbers than the daily EF, a form which has a much smaller percentage of parishioners total, based on the average experience. Even more so, the attendance percentage of the daily versus Sunday vs total parish population is heavily in favor of the EF. Of course, this goes back to the argument in #2. Again, this is actually damning of the main parish in the tri-community in light of the EF. The satellite parishes have even more dismal numbers based on what I have seen over the past few months. The only exception to this, which I cannot speak on due to no experience, is up Ute Pass in another town entirely. The main parish in the community is my focus as it should indicate the community health. Daily attendance is dismal, vigil mass/once a month youth (read: entertainment) Mass is high in attendance, and the Sunday morning masses bring em out in droves. Again, the percentage of the whole in attendance is the issue, not the raw numbers. However, when comparing raw numbers to the percentage of the whole they represent, the EF is the clear winner in the area, both in numbers and percentage. I would think that the daily attendance is more of an indicator than Sunday of the devotion which grows the community focused on a particular form. Kinda like how you never to rarely see pogues jogging down the main PT route with a heavy ruck on their back, on Saturday. You do see this happening with grunts training up for SFAS, or just because they’re grunts and they like to do things like that, or because they realize how weak and ineffective the regular training schedule is for the mission they face. We see the same in cops. Some fire their weapon ONLY when departmental regs say they have to do annual training; some fire their weapon a lot because they chose to go SWAT and the training dictates it, as does the necessity, and some fire a lot because, despite not being SWAT, or even wanting to be, they realize the situation they face. The “rite” (law enforcement) is not to be confused with the forms that rite may be composed of (SWAT/or just cops with their noggin on point). There exists within many forms the same rite, as applies to the LE/military examples. It’s not damning of the rite or even the form, that some would be more “devout” in their preparation for the reality they face. The forms exist within the minimal standard of the rite. That EF types are “going to the range” more is a conclusion I’ll leave to inference of the individual so as to not give Thomas Casey a reason to do more work.
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promethius said:
  1. OF mass attendance is actually on the nationally, while the EF’s attendance varies by region. This is because the youngest age group of adults (18-30) attend mass more devoutly that any other age group short of the 65+ crowd. It’s simple social dynamics.
So… how does this reflect your statement in #'s 1 and 2? Particularly since it is less likely that an older person would be less than conservative. Further, given that the OF is the main form which is promulgated and practiced, it would only be correct to view the situation on the basis of percentage. By percentage, mohammedanism dominating Catholicism worldwide. By percentage, there are very few mohammedan practitioners in the US. However, they are actually the fastest growing “religion” in the world according to stats I’ve read, and while there may only be scant numbers in my area, that does not mean the national reality is the same. In terms of the OP’s question, the answer can only be addressed in terms of the parish census and daily attendance statistics to work that out. Certainly there are tons of other factors, but those factors only have weight once the percentage of attendees is weighed against its individual whole, and the general whole.

I blame this largely on the fact that families are having so few children today. When there is only one son to “carry on the family name”, it’s HIGHLY unlikely that parents (especially fathers) will want to encourage a child to go into the priesthood. Same goes with daughters, as they too fall into the scale of gene survival.

A fault of the influence and submission to: secular society, liberal/marxist clergy, and the effect of true social dynamics at play; particularly in the case of society being so sexualized and selfish, and the Church (at levels below the highest earthly authority, the Pope) tolerating it in practice, though not in theory. Pope Paul VI, Humanae Vitae, the fallout of contraception as a divisive issue at the levels below the Pope… must I go on?

If a father has only one son who goes into the priesthood, yes, the physical genetics cease, but it doesn’t decrease the spiritual grandfathering the dad now experiences through his son’s extension of his family into that which is now universal. In other words, the sacrifice of a father is experienced in some regard to the sacrifice of the son, or daughter, though the son makes the physical sacrifice himself in many ways. This sounds about… well, like the illustrative symbolism of the priest’s role as a type of Christ. Isn’t that the point? Does not a father experience spiritual satisfaction of such a great sacrifice? Again, the problem is largely as you described and is an issue of selfishness. It is also an issue amongst the boys who might become priests because they’re often times so poorly catechized and so poorly led in an example of just how manly the priesthood actually is. Despite all the love a father may give a child, there comes a time when, unfortunately, the father needs to raise his voice. The child won’t like this. Parishioners don’t like this, and many priests, like many protestant pastors, are willing to let things slide at the harm of parishioners in search of financial reasons. These are not individually selfish most times, but the institutional selfishness which is incorrectly foisted upon the Church by those who don’t trust Christ in practice, despite all their preaching to the contrary.

Let me put it this way: I don’t know if I’m enough of a man to be a priest. That so many effete wrist-flickers occupy the pulpit/confessional from which they spew liberal diatribes and unCatholic advice which furthers marxist/socialist ideas just exacerbates the terrible situation in which the priesthood finds itself.

**
Thank you for this, very well stated.**
My pleasure.
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1AugustSon7 said:
Assuming you mean Catholic families, then the usual observation that Catholic families attending the EF tend to have more children suggests a relationship between that attendance and adherence to Church teaching in regards to the family. We can, therefore, expect more young persons attending the EF and also the increased likelihood of religious vocations; regardless, the power of nature being what it is, we can expect a dispraportionate increase in attendence at the EF if the observation that those who attend the EF tend to have more children (than their OF counterparts) is true. In time, of course, we can logically expect even a majority.
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I can’t speak for other EF congregations, but the vocations ours seem to push out are traditional vocations like the FSSP.
 
Sometimes when I make to Ogden, Utah (I mean when I have the money to pay for gas to drive something like 70-miles over the mountains) for the Extraordinary Form during the weekdays… I’ll find only myself, a priest, and an assitant present; that is, inside the church.

In the parking lot there is normally like fifty cars loaded with parents picking up their children from some afterschool program of some sort. I once asked around if an when Mass was starting and nobody even knew about it. That’s kind of a kill-joy witnessing that even though it’s a regularly scheduled weekly event.

I’m thinking that most of the families who use the daycare or whathaveyou probably aren’t Catholics, but rather non-LDS folks who have found a refuge.where they don’t have to worry about their children being excluded.
 
JimmytheButcher said:
Sometimes when I make to Ogden, Utah (I mean when I have the money to pay for gas to drive something like 70-miles over the mountains) for the Extraordinary Form during the weekdays… I’ll find only myself, a priest, and an assitant present; that is, inside the church.
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Oh my, that’s so sad! We get about 50 at the Sunday EF mass that I attend.
 
a83192 said:
Are EF Masses usually well attended nowadays?
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I live in probably one of the most “liberal” dioceses in the US and my diocese has sponsored an EF for the past 15+ years, in one of our most beautiful churches. It takes place at 1:30pm every Sunday.

Average attendance is about 150 out of a diocese comprised of nearly 300,000.
 
It depends on the church I go for the EF. Some will have about 50 people others a few hundred. I tend to see more for Sunday Mass compared to the weekday. Keep in mind, I must travel at least 30 to 40 miles to another diocese one way for an EF Mass as my diocese does not yet offer them.
 
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