Effectiveness of reparative therapy

[goofyjim]

Since I don’t want to “derail” other threads I figured I would start my own. Does reparative therapy for homosexuality really work? In my opinion it does not. It can only help eliminate behavior. The attraction for most will never go away. To insist that it must is simply calling for the impossible. God expects abstinence. He does not require we change what we feel.

 

[dafalax]

goofyjim, i think it may depend on the individual. I know of some groups who claim great success with helping individuals overcome same sex attractions. One group was started by a “recovering” homosexual man who married a former lesbian. They share their ministry together, trying to help people who want to “change” do so. Given that there are many practicing homosexuals with children from a past marriage, i think there are people who engage in homosexual acts who can be helped with reparative therapy. I don’t expect that everyone could be “cured” with reparative therapy and, as you say, it’s not like God requires it. He just asks you not to sin in word, thought, or deed.
I think, too, it might be damaging to take the attitude that everyone could be cured of SSA because i think some people might feel pressured to enter into a heterosexual relationship they felt nothing for in order to “prove” they were cured. A focus on chastity according to station in life truly seems the best route. The “why” of same sex attraction is a biological matter that the Church will never make an official ruling on; all she can do is tell you how to deal with sinful impulses.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

If it is condemned by every major medical association odds are it does not work.

Edit
please see

ama-assn.org/apps/pf_new/pf_online?f_n=browse&doc=policyfiles/HnE/H-160.991.HTM

psych.org/psych_pract/copptherapyaddendum83100.cfm

apa.org/pi/sexual.html

 

[RWMorris]

I think reparative therapy could work on many people. When I was studying psychology in my master’s program, I found in my studies that reparative therapy based on behavioral modes of change as well as gender identity awareness seemed to be quite effective for many types of behavior, not just homosexual. Human beings are quite susceptible to societal change and will eagerly conform to change once society demands it. Here I could place many historical examples but will not unless asked.
Also, as a former bisexual person, I know for a fact people can change their desires.

 

[Transformer]

Since I don’t want to “derail” other threads I figured I would start my own. Does reparative therapy for homosexuality really work? In my opinion it does not. It can only help eliminate behavior. The attraction for most will never go away. To insist that it must is simply calling for the impossible. God expects abstinence. He does not require we change what we feel.

Goofyjim, I do not believe that the position that same-sex attractions can never, under any circumstances, be shed to some degree through theraputic means is defensible. Thousands of individuals claim to have experienced lessening or elimination of their same-sex attractions by theraputic means, and only the tinest fraction of those have experienced a reinvigoration of their same-sex attractions; to claim that such a change is objectively impossible amounts to saying “I know all of you thousands of people believe that you have experienced a real change in your same-sex attractions, but I know from my knowledge of psychology that such change is impossible. Every last one of you is either lying to himself or lying to the rest of the world.” I don’t think any individual in the world has such certain knowledge of psychology (or of other people’s hearts!) that he can reasonably make that claim; I know I certainly don’t.

No, I think there is no doubt that “reparative therapy,” so to speak, does accomplish its purpose to at least some degree, at least some of the time. However, that still leaves a huge number of important questions:

Can reparative therapy affect anyone with same-sex attractions if carried out properly? Is a re-orientation of sexual desires simply a matter or trying hard enough or of having enough faith? How reliable is the data we have about reparative therapy, on both sides of the argument? Does reparative therapy cause more harm than good in people who do not experience some lessening of their same-sex attractions? Does reparative therapy cause more harm than good in people who do experience some degree of re-orientation in their sexual desires? Would the further refinement of reparative therapy do more harm than good? Could reparative therapy ever be refined and improved enough that it consistently does more good than harm?

In defense of your position, Goofyjim, I do not think we can ever say that a re-orientation of sexual desires is simply a matter of trying hard enough or of having enough faith. That position is both incredibly uncharitable towards those wonderful Christian men and women who struggle with same-sex attractions, and also inconsistent with the data we have on the subject. I also don’t think we can claim that those who experience same-sex attractions are required to seek reparative therapy; we know that reparative therapy (at the very least, in its current form) can cause psychological harm, and the USCCB has said quite clearly before that Catholics who struggle with same-sex attractions are not required to seek therapy to actually shed their attractions. Such Catholics are, of course, still called to acknowledge that their same-sex attractions are neither defining of their identity nor intended by God, but mandating that they seek reparative therapy is out of the question.

As to our other difficult questions, I really don’t know the answers. Could reparative therapy be reformed to the point that it is effective at least a significant portion of the time, but no longer causes psychological harm? I have no idea. For the time being, I would say a Catholic should defer to his conscience as it is already formed in light of the Truth.

God bless.

 

[Newbie2]

Since I don’t want to “derail” other threads I figured I would start my own. Does reparative therapy for homosexuality really work? In my opinion it does not. It can only help eliminate behavior. The attraction for most will never go away. To insist that it must is simply calling for the impossible. God expects abstinence. He does not require we change what we feel.

“In (your) opinion…”

Exactly.

And that’s OK to have such an opinion, except that it ignores many testimonials that it does work, at least for some.

Beg to differ that God does not expect us to change how we feel. The command to “be holy” includes thought, word and deed. That doesn’t mean that we will accomplish what we intend to do, but doesn’t God expect at least a good go at it?

Point taken, though, that some feelings are very difficult to change. By ourselves, impossible. And there are undoubtably those who’s SSA feeling they will not overcome, with or without divine or other guidance. For what reason??? We dunno.

Outright rejection of the potential benefits of reparative therapy? Not a well-researched position, I’d say.

 

[goofyjim]

The Church accepts the idea of a chaste homosexual. Why can’t we? Why must one feel the necessity to fit societal norms of heterosexuality as long as they are not practicing?

 

[Penitus]

Just as Cognitive Behavioral Therapy works with some people who are depressed and some who are not, Reparative Therapy is works for some, and not for others.

 

[Transformer]

Beg to differ that God does not expect us to change how we feel. The command to “be holy” includes thought, word and deed. That doesn’t mean that we will accomplish what we intend to do, but doesn’t God expect at least a good go at it?

This is a difficult question. Let me begin here: if there were a button that individuals who experience same-sex attractions could press which would re-orient their desires instantly, painlessly, and ethically, would they be morally obligated to press it? I would have to say yes, they would be. If same-sex attractions really are objectively disordered; that is, if they really are a disorientation from God’s plan and intention, then I can’t imagine why a Christian, who is called radically to conform himself to Christ’s perfection, could justify not taking that step.

Now, if re-orienting one’s same-sex attractions were a long and difficult process, but a well-developed, well-documented one that has been shown to be possible in all cases and that does not cause any kind of significant psychological harm, would all Catholics with same-sex attractions be required to walk that path? I don’t know the answer to that question.

However, despite the above two examples, I would say that, specifically in the case of reparative therapy, we know (and the USCCB said) that Catholics who struggle with same-sex attractions are not required to seek such therapy for very good reason. This reparative therapy is in its infant stages, and could potentially cause more harm than good. We don’t know how possible or helpful re-orientation of desires is in any individual case; we don’t truly know just how effective we can expect such therapy to be, or whether or now it will be effective with a given person. We know that reparative therapy can cause psychological harm; there are testimonies attesting to that, too.

The bottom line is, even if Christians who experience same-sex attractions would be required in all cases to seek reparative therapy if such therapy were nearly flawless, they are certainly not required to seek it now because it is not at all flawless. A lack of clear knowledge/data about the therapy, the possibility of psychological damage, and potential lack of effectiveness are all factors to be considered. No, the USCCB is wise to leave the matter of whether or not to seek reparative therapy as it exists now up to individual conscience.

God bless.

 

[goofyjim]

It only works for those who have the money. I don’t see any justification for making anybody else’s pockets full. I accept myself as I am and so does God.

 

[rlg94086]

It only works for those who have the money. I don’t see any justification for making anybody else’s pockets full. I accept myself as I am and so does God.

You aren’t being clear. If it “only works for those who have the money,” then you are saying it works.

As far as justification, who is requiring that you go for reparative therapy. As you said, the Church doesn’t. If someone tells you that it is required, they are wrong.

More than likely, it is being recommended to you by a) someone who has gone through it and wants the same joy they have experienced OR b) someone who has no idea, but they want the best for you. Either way, just tell them “no thanks” and move on.

 

[goofyjim]

You aren’t being clear. If it “only works for those who have the money,” then you are saying it works.

As far as justification, who is requiring that you go for reparative therapy. As you said, the Church doesn’t. If someone tells you that it is required, they are wrong.

More than likely, it is being recommended to you by a) someone who has gone through it and wants the same joy they have experienced OR b) someone who has no idea, but they want the best for you. Either way, just tell them “no thanks” and move on.

What joy is there if you can’t be yourself? From the NARTH reports I have seen only one third of those who try it are completely successful. The other two thirds at best just stop the behavior. Well I have been able to do that for free. But I have never been able to rid myself of the attractions. My personal story is that I attempted suicide because I was afraid of rejection for having the feelings only. A society that puts that sort of burden on someone is not being just. And I am sure there are many more successful suicides over the same thing. If I was to counsel someone I would tell them there is nothing wrong with them. They are okay. They are called to be chaste but this all God asks of us.

 

[Riley259]

The Church accepts the idea of a chaste homosexual. Why can’t we? Why must one feel the necessity to fit societal norms of heterosexuality as long as they are not practicing?

The Church does not require that you change your sexual orientation but does require that you be chaste and not engage in sexual relations with anyone except in a sacramental marriage. However, I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there is reparative therapy out there that has been very effective with at least 30-60% of the people who try it. Of course, there needs to be motivation and committment on the part of the individual seeking change otherwise it will probably be a wasted effort. I know that Dr. Joseph Nicolosi has received alot of criticism from gay activists and many of his collegues in the field of psychology for his psycho-sexual theories of the origins of homosexuality and for his claims of success with reparative therapy. He also has stated that homosexuality is not a choice and that there is indeed some likely biological predispositions evident in a child early on that could potentially lead to same-sex attractions but nothing hard-wired that would always definitively lead to same-sex attractions. If you read his stuff (look on NARTH) and look at the evidence he has to back up his claims (peer-reviewed and empirically sound research studies) then it would be hard to ignore his claims. He just had a show on Catholic Answers Live at the end of August and once again he makes very credible claims against the APA for their obvious political motivations in their attempts to normalize homosexuality. I suggest you listen to that show and seek out the witness of those who make convincing claims of change in sexual attraction (ex, Steven Bennett). You are not obligated to seek this therapy and if you’re ok and doing fine with your current chaste status then thank the Lord and continue to be the strong witness that you are. God Bless.

 

[goofyjim]

The Church does not require that you change your sexual orientation but does require that you be chaste and not engage in sexual relations with anyone except in a sacramental marriage. However, I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there is reparative therapy out there that has been very effective with at least 30-60% of the people who try it. Of course, there needs to be motivation and committment on the part of the individual seeking change otherwise it will probably be a wasted effort. I know that Dr. Joseph Nicolosi has received alot of criticism from gay activists and many of his collegues in the field of psychology for his psycho-sexual theories of the origins of homosexuality and for his claims of success with reparative therapy. He also has stated that homosexuality is not a choice and that there is indeed some likely biological predispositions evident in a child early on that could potentially lead to same-sex attractions but nothing hard-wired that would always definitively lead to same-sex attractions. If you read his stuff (look on NARTH) and look at the evidence he has to back up his claims (peer-reviewed and empirically sound research studies) then it would be hard to ignore his claims. He just had a show on Catholic Answers Live at the end of August and once again he makes very credible claims against the APA for their obvious political motivations in their attempts to normalize homosexuality. I suggest you listen to that show and seek out the witness of those who make convincing claims of change in sexual attraction (ex, Steven Bennett). You are not obligated to seek this therapy and if you’re ok and doing fine with your current chaste status then thank the Lord and continue to be the strong witness that you are. God Bless.

So if even Dr. Nicolosi believes there may be an element of biological predisposition I would assume that means some are born that way and not influenced by psychological factors. More research should be done here. Then maybe we will identify those and not require any of them to do anything but stop the behavior.

 

[rlg94086]

What joy is there if you can’t be yourself? From the NARTH reports I have seen only one third of those who try it are completely successful. The other two thirds at best just stop the behavior. Well I have been able to do that for free. But I have never been able to rid myself of the attractions. My personal story is that I attempted suicide because I was afraid of rejection for having the feelings only. A society that puts that sort of burden on someone is not being just. And I am sure there are many more successful suicides over the same thing. If I was to counsel someone I would tell them there is nothing wrong with them. They are okay. They are called to be chaste but this all God asks of us.

My point is that no one is forcing anyone to go through reparitive therapy. Some people who live the gay lifestyle probably tell you that you should tell the Church to buzz off and live a gay lifestyle. What do you tell them? Well, tell people who recommend reparitive therapy something similar. For other people who are struggling with those decisions, give them your testimony. Be there as a support for them.

You are being overdramatic. I know SSA is a tough burden to bear, but you are doing it. Be happy.

 

[blessedtoo]

This is a difficult question. Let me begin here: if there were a button that individuals who experience same-sex attractions could press which would re-orient their desires instantly, painlessly, and ethically, would they be morally obligated to press it? I would have to say yes, they would be. If same-sex attractions really are objectively disordered; that is, if they really are a disorientation from God’s plan and intention, then I can’t imagine why a Christian, who is called radically to conform himself to Christ’s perfection, could justify not taking that step.

This is a profoundly important point. Gay activists have said that if a “gay” gene were discovered and it was found that homosexuality could be “cured” in utero, they would refuse that cure. The profound understanding that the homosexual orientation is, in and of itself, disordered (which is the Catholic view) would likely compel one to take the “cure” should there ever be one available.

Those who refuse to believe or accept that the inclination, WHILE NOT A SIN, is disodered and who continue to link their entire identity solely upon their sexuality, would resent such a cure and refuse it outright.

 

[Bennie_P]

Reparative therapy is only impossible if people are convienced that is impossible. Any dysfunctional or disordered behavior has a chance to be corrected or at least controled. But first it has to be acknowledge to be disordered and not justified as being normal, no matter the root cause, rather it be genetic, psycological, enviromental and any combination of root causes.

Gay politics does those that have SSA grave harm by trying to sell the lie that all homosexual behavior is inborn and those that suffer with SSA to shut up, embrace it and act on it as normal behaviour, when in fact to act out on the impulses will most likely do grave harm to the individual with SSA healthwise physically, pschologically and spirtually. In the end shorten thier life span by 30 to 40 years.
The majority of the naysayers are those that don’t want to see others change, for if others change then they are going to have to take a deeper look at themselves and possible recognize that thier behavior may be wrong. otherwise they want to live in denial that there may be something wrong with themselves when they would rather think they are in control- especially those that might have been lead into the lifestyle when someone else took advantage of them when they were vulnerable and confused.
And continued denial is now leading us to go down an even more dangerous road which will have even more devastating affect on society and our children.

The 1973 victory of “gay” politics over scientific objectivity in the American Psychiatric Association had far-reaching consequences. After the fall of the APA’s medical standard against the normalization of homosexuality, “gay rights” activists made tremendous gains in public acceptance of, or at least tolerance for, open homosexuality. This fact is especially alarming when we consider that the APA has now taken action which some construe as “normalization” of pedophilia as well. The September, 1994 issue of “Regeneration News,” the newsletter of a homosexual recovery group in Baltimore, features an article about this change. Regeneration Director, Alan Medinger compares the new set of criteria for diagnosing pedophilia with the prior standard:
In the earlier DSM-III-R [Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Psychiatrists], pedophilia was diagnosed as a disorder if “[t]he person has acted out on these urges or is markedly distressed by them*…but the new standard defines pedophilia as a disorder only if the fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning” *(Medinger, reprinted in Stop Promoting Homosexuality Hawaii Newsletter, November, 1994
The APA has taken a step which can be interpreted to imply that adult sex with children is normal as long as the perpetrators are not unhappy with their sexual orientation. The APA has taken exception to this interpretation. The Pink Swastki

How far down the wrong road do we have to travel before we figure out it is a dead end?
Need help or Support? Don’t go it alone, Find what works best for you to live your life for Christ. National Gay Recovery Groups

 

[Transformer]

Reparative therapy is only impossible if people are convienced that is impossible. Any dysfunctional or disordered behavior has a chance to be corrected or at least controled. But first it has to be acknowledge to be disordered and not justified as being normal, no matter the root cause, rather it be genetic, psycological, enviromental and any combination of root causes.

Be precise with the vocabulary you use; by “disordered behavior,” are you refering to same-sex attractions themselves, or to homosexual sexual acts and the social behaviors that go with them? You cannot equivocate between the two; on this thread we’re only discussing people who experience same-sex attractions but who do not act them out.

The majority of the naysayers are those that don’t want to see others change, for if others change then they are going to have to take a deeper look at themselves and possible recognize that thier behavior may be wrong. otherwise they want to live in denial that there may be something wrong with themselves when they would rather think they are in control- especially those that might have been lead into the lifestyle when someone else took advantage of them when they were vulnerable and confused.
And continued denial is now leading us to go down an even more dangerous road which will have even more devastating affect on society and our children.

Are you certain there is data to back this up? I know that it is absolutely clear that this therapy has worked in some cases. I know that the opposition to it by the APA and other psychological associations is and always has been based primarily on pressure from homosexual lobbyist groups, and from a secular agenda within the organizations, rather than any particularly sound data or science. I know that the fact that there are few or no peer-reviewed studies supporting reparative therapy may simply be due to the fact that in the area of psychology, there are simply not enough honest peers who don’t have pro-homosexuality agendas who would be willing to verify such a study, no matter how sound it is.

However, I still don’t think you have the data to back up the claim that all nay-sayers are simply in denial about the nature of same-sex attractions and don’t want other people to see change. It is clear that reparative therapy, at the very least in its current form, does not work with everyone. It is equally clear that it can and has caused significant psychological harm to some individuals. Don’t dismiss Catholic who experience same-sex attractions, live totally chastely, but still oppose reparative therapy; their position is not baseless.

God bless.

 

[goofyjim]

I must reiterate that even Dr. Nicolosi said there is likely some biological predisposition towards same sex attraction. That would mean you are born with it. While you can change behavior why is it necessary to change something you are born with? There is and never will be any harm in same sex attraction. There is an irrational fear on the part of those who don’t understand it and they can make up all the excuses they want as to why it should be changed. I expect to be fully welcomed into Jesus embrace w/o ever changing my attractions.

 

[Maria1212]

I must reiterate that even Dr. Nicolosi said there is likely some biological predisposition towards same sex attraction. That would mean you are born with it. While you can change behavior why is it necessary to change something you are born with? There is and never will be any harm in same sex attraction. There is an irrational fear on the part of those who don’t understand it and they can make up all the excuses they want as to why it should be changed. I expect to be fully welcomed into Jesus embrace w/o ever changing my attractions.

Dear GoofyJim,

You are right. Jesus loves you 100 percent just the way you are. If you had reparative therapy, and it worked, Jesus would still love you the same amount. His love is infinite and it is not based on anything we do on our part. He loves us plain and simple.

Gods love for you and the decision to have reparative therapy (whether successful or not) are two completely separate issues. It seems that in some cases, reparative therapy is gift, because when successful, it lifts a huge burden and temptation off ones shoulders. You are not required to try this. But it can be a tool and gift for some individuals, enabling them to be happier than they were beforehand.

If you are happy the way things are, that is wondeful. But it can be a gift for someone else. It is just that though. and no one is forcing you to change. You are right that God loves us just the way you are, and you are right that all individuals are called to live chaste lives.

I will keep you in my prayers. My best friend has SSA but is not committed to chastity. Please pray for my friend if you don`t mind.

Through your committment to chastity, you are an inspiration to many people.

Sincerely,

Maria1212