S
Sure
Guest
That might be the way you are but that doesn’t mean anyone with SSA is the same. And no, your life isn’t normal in the sense that it is an aberration from the way God the Father designed humans to be.
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G
goofyjim
Guest
And this is what I grow weary of. My life is NORMAL. I don’t care what anyone else says.
M
manualman
Guest
I think the catechism excerpt needs to be read closely. It seems to me that it says that the INCLINATION is inherently disordered, right?
I tend to agree that this area of psychology is so new and so muddied by politics that nobody should be compelled or pressured to enter that kind of treatment.
On the other hand, the church’s reasoning for opposing homosexual sex and marriage in the first place is because it is innately incompatible with God’s plan for man and woman as evidenced in their very bodies. Morality is not an arbitrary set of rules God made up to constrain us, but a set of helps intended to assist us in avoiding damaging who we are and our ability to know and love God.
I have sexual predelictions that are inherently disordered as well. Me, I tend to view women as objects before realizing that they are PERSONS, created uniquely by God to be imortal. Instead I tend to see body parts first. I’m not satisfied that I have resolved not to act on these disordered inclinations. I am praying that God will HEAL me of them and I’m convinced that my sorry back end will have to sit in Purgatory until I’ve matured to the point where I can look at a perfectly shaped nude woman and not have a moment of lust. I’m not seeing a therapist for this, mind you, but I pray for purity and confess when I have failings inside.
Jim, you’ve got a tough path ahead of you and I pray you will continue to ask God to show you the way and conform you to Himself however that may turn out.
I tend to agree that this area of psychology is so new and so muddied by politics that nobody should be compelled or pressured to enter that kind of treatment.
On the other hand, the church’s reasoning for opposing homosexual sex and marriage in the first place is because it is innately incompatible with God’s plan for man and woman as evidenced in their very bodies. Morality is not an arbitrary set of rules God made up to constrain us, but a set of helps intended to assist us in avoiding damaging who we are and our ability to know and love God.
I have sexual predelictions that are inherently disordered as well. Me, I tend to view women as objects before realizing that they are PERSONS, created uniquely by God to be imortal. Instead I tend to see body parts first. I’m not satisfied that I have resolved not to act on these disordered inclinations. I am praying that God will HEAL me of them and I’m convinced that my sorry back end will have to sit in Purgatory until I’ve matured to the point where I can look at a perfectly shaped nude woman and not have a moment of lust. I’m not seeing a therapist for this, mind you, but I pray for purity and confess when I have failings inside.
Jim, you’ve got a tough path ahead of you and I pray you will continue to ask God to show you the way and conform you to Himself however that may turn out.
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goofyjim
Guest
I thank you for your prayers. I am chaste but have SSA. There is no more conforming necessary.
M
manualman
Guest
Define chastity and I may agree with you!
and trust me, there is a LOT of conforming we ALL need to do. That’s the point! We are sinful, broken. We’ve made bad choices and continue to suffer consequences. That’s why there is suffering in the world. But we look forward to heaven where ALL our brokenness will be mended and there will be no more tears. Salvation is a free gift, it cannot be earned, but it cannot be accepted without a total giving of ourselves as well. You no doubt know this and were merely referring to the one issue…
and trust me, there is a LOT of conforming we ALL need to do. That’s the point! We are sinful, broken. We’ve made bad choices and continue to suffer consequences. That’s why there is suffering in the world. But we look forward to heaven where ALL our brokenness will be mended and there will be no more tears. Salvation is a free gift, it cannot be earned, but it cannot be accepted without a total giving of ourselves as well. You no doubt know this and were merely referring to the one issue…
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goofyjim
Guest
Chastity to me is abstinence. It does not mean you will not face temptation. I am living abstinence and therefore living chastity. Now there are those who say one with SSA cannot be chaste but that is NOT what the Church teaches.
M
manualman
Guest
Am I chaste if I go to my company golf outing and oggle the beer cart girls like the rest of them? No.
Abstinance is PART of chastity, but the greater part is to recognize the PERSONHOOD of all those around you. When you see all your neighbors as daughters (in my case and sons in your case) of God instead of ‘hotties’ then we’ll be chaste.
Abstinance is PART of chastity, but the greater part is to recognize the PERSONHOOD of all those around you. When you see all your neighbors as daughters (in my case and sons in your case) of God instead of ‘hotties’ then we’ll be chaste.
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goofyjim
Guest
But you are still inferring that having same sex attraction is just looking at all the guys as hotties. That’s no more the case than in opposite sex attraction. So if it is possible to find the opposite sex attractive and still remain chaste it must be so for same sex attraction. I repeat I am being chaste.
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Abigail
Guest
Dear Jim:
Your love for the Lord, and your willingness to sacrifice your own wishes for Him is inspirational. If you continue to love God and pray, He will continue to bless you, and will help you resolve the paradox that’s in your mind.
In post 33 you wrote “no one chooses to be SSA.” But in Post 36 you wrote “I am already convinced I have no moral obligation whatsoever to change who I find attractive therefore I don’t even seek out the possibility of change.”
IF 100% effective reparative therapy were available, it is obvious that someone who refused it WOULD be choosing SSA. If your refusal to consider changing is due to the very legitimate concern that such therapy is currently is a state where it is not effective, and might create positive harm, I think everyone would accept that position. But what I hear you saying, ever so faintly, is that you consider SSA such an integral part of your being that you wouldn’t give it up even if you could.
You will probably never have to face this situation, since it is highly unlikely that anything100% certain will develop during our lifetimes. BUT, putting anything above God’s will is idolatry. The Church teaches that the desires themselves, while not sinful, are disordered, and she teaches this because someone with SSA cannot participate in the benefits resulting from marriage, nor co-create children with God. A normal life is not just a matter of avoiding sin. To understand these benefits as gifts from God, and then to knowingly reject them in order to keep SSA would be idolatry.
Jim, I know that you would never succumb to idolotry. I just think you don’t believe there could ever be a 100% successful therapy - that even if they said it was 100% successful and you attempted it, you would still have SSA. And you may be correct.
Your love for the Lord, and your willingness to sacrifice your own wishes for Him is inspirational. If you continue to love God and pray, He will continue to bless you, and will help you resolve the paradox that’s in your mind.
In post 33 you wrote “no one chooses to be SSA.” But in Post 36 you wrote “I am already convinced I have no moral obligation whatsoever to change who I find attractive therefore I don’t even seek out the possibility of change.”
IF 100% effective reparative therapy were available, it is obvious that someone who refused it WOULD be choosing SSA. If your refusal to consider changing is due to the very legitimate concern that such therapy is currently is a state where it is not effective, and might create positive harm, I think everyone would accept that position. But what I hear you saying, ever so faintly, is that you consider SSA such an integral part of your being that you wouldn’t give it up even if you could.
You will probably never have to face this situation, since it is highly unlikely that anything100% certain will develop during our lifetimes. BUT, putting anything above God’s will is idolatry. The Church teaches that the desires themselves, while not sinful, are disordered, and she teaches this because someone with SSA cannot participate in the benefits resulting from marriage, nor co-create children with God. A normal life is not just a matter of avoiding sin. To understand these benefits as gifts from God, and then to knowingly reject them in order to keep SSA would be idolatry.
Jim, I know that you would never succumb to idolotry. I just think you don’t believe there could ever be a 100% successful therapy - that even if they said it was 100% successful and you attempted it, you would still have SSA. And you may be correct.
G
goofyjim
Guest
What about SSA is idolatry. It is simply a human variant. We as humans are imperfect and will always be that way. It is not until after this life that we are perfected. This is what God allows. SSA involves temptations but temptations are not the sin. There is no idolatry if there is no sin. I am not rejecting God’s plan by remaining SSA. I am rejecting other human’s idea of having to conform.
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Sure
Guest
SSA exists ONLY because of the fall. As such it is what is called a “natural evil” meaning something that has gone awry from God’s original design. SSA is the same as, being prone to depression or alcoholism, birth defects, speech impediments, learning disabilities, deafness, blindness, and various other “natural” evils and mutations that plague fallen man. This is NOT something God designed, but it IS something God ALLOWS.
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goofyjim
Guest
SSA is not evil. Neither are deafness, blindness, speech impediments, depression, learning disabilities or birth defects. If one is living a chaste life how can the simple attraction be evil?
S
Sure
Guest
They are not MORAL evils, they are NATURAL evils. HUGE difference. A natural evil is a defect from God the Creator’s original design. For instance, when a horse is born with 3 legs we know that is a defect from God’s natural design. Since that particular horse suffers from a lack of the goodness of God’s design, it is philosophically termed an “evil” but NOT in the moral sense.
In that sense, all the things that I mentioned are defects from God’s original plan and design. These defects exist because of the fall.
I hope this helps you to understand. God bless.
M
Mirdath
Guest
Must a blind person see in order to be saved?
S
Sure
Guest
You are missing the point. Natural evil has nothing to do with sin or salvation. It means DEFECT. It means something in Creation that was not originally intended to be that way by God. God did not intend for Adam to commit Original Sin. God also did not intend for the effects (natural evils) which followed from the Fall.
A blind person must deal with their blindness the best that they can. They must embrace their cross and live according to God’s law. If a cure comes along, they may seek to correct the defect (blindness) that plagues them.
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goofyjim
Guest
Emphasis on “may seek to correct”. There is still no requirement correct a natural flaw. It is only required to correct moral evils. As long as I am chaste, which I am, I don’t see how I am going against God’s will for me.
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Bennie_P
Guest
Many people that see are still blind. A blindness in which could have an affect on thier salvation.
2Peter 1:9 -11 For he that hath not these things with him is blind and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.
For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the ever-lasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
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Abigail
Guest
Dear Jim,
Using the analogy of blindness, a defect of nature similar to SSA which prevents a person from enjoying all the things God wants us to enjoy. I think we can agree that no one could force a blind person to seek to have his sight restored if that were possible. Nor would we say that if he chose to remain blind, he would be committing a sin or would not get to heaven.
BUT, one has to ask WHY would a blind person choose to go through life blind instead of being able to see? WHY would someone choose to go through life with SSA and not be able to experience the joys of marriage and family?
If the blind person has become part of a “community” of other blind people, he may not want to leave behind his friendships with people who understand him and have had similar experiences. As I understand, some deaf people feel this way – that the hearing world is actually inferior to their world, and that they would not want to be part of it if they could.
Is it possible that someone with SSA would desire to keep it in order to remain part of a community? Many gay people dislike straight married people and see that sort of life as boring and unattractive, and dislike children, and can’t imagine themselves happy in “straight” culture. They may think that if they were to not be SSA they would not only be rejected by the community they know, but repelled by that which they do not know? It is no easy thing to leave one’s world – I think people who don’t know gay people don’t understand how much more there is to it than the simple attraction.
Jim, maybe you could give us your thoughts?
Using the analogy of blindness, a defect of nature similar to SSA which prevents a person from enjoying all the things God wants us to enjoy. I think we can agree that no one could force a blind person to seek to have his sight restored if that were possible. Nor would we say that if he chose to remain blind, he would be committing a sin or would not get to heaven.
BUT, one has to ask WHY would a blind person choose to go through life blind instead of being able to see? WHY would someone choose to go through life with SSA and not be able to experience the joys of marriage and family?
If the blind person has become part of a “community” of other blind people, he may not want to leave behind his friendships with people who understand him and have had similar experiences. As I understand, some deaf people feel this way – that the hearing world is actually inferior to their world, and that they would not want to be part of it if they could.
Is it possible that someone with SSA would desire to keep it in order to remain part of a community? Many gay people dislike straight married people and see that sort of life as boring and unattractive, and dislike children, and can’t imagine themselves happy in “straight” culture. They may think that if they were to not be SSA they would not only be rejected by the community they know, but repelled by that which they do not know? It is no easy thing to leave one’s world – I think people who don’t know gay people don’t understand how much more there is to it than the simple attraction.
Jim, maybe you could give us your thoughts?
S
Sure
Guest
I never said you were going against God’s will. I never said you ought to undergo reparative therapy. Consider, though that there are others out there whose SSA is greatly lessened. There are men who have slight SSA and are also attracted to women. Should we push them to embrace their “gayness” or should we offer them the option of working through it and possibly living a “normal” heterosexual life? Isn’t it just to help them to find ways to overcome their SSA since it may not be as deep-seated as yours?
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goofyjim
Guest
I know I am not called to have children because I simply could not for a lifetime maintain physical intimate relationship. But to suggest I dislike children or straight married people is nonsense. It would just be a lie for me to pretend that I am something I am not and I view lying as a greater sin than any attraction I might have. I know if society or God were to give me an honest chance at a homosexual relationship (all diseases aside) I could enter one with complete commitment the same way straight people enter marriages. But the conflict is that they don’t. We as having SSA are just told to practice chastity with no outlet for our desires. We are told they come from the devil. So many go into hiding their secret and therefore are unable to maintain steady fulfilling relationships.
It often does happen the same way a straight relationship would develop. You start off as friends, form an emotional and psychological bond, but then are restricted from there.
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