Effectiveness of reparative therapy

[goofyjim]

Okay, I’ll make a proposal. If there is a psychiatrist out there for reparative therapy who will accept my health insurance as payment I’ll gladly give it a try. I have never found one and I will never shell out the whole payment myself for something that has such a minimal effect of so-called “cure”.

 

[Mirdath]

Some people have the same attractions you do but are not content. Why should they be discouraged from a therapy that has a significant rate (as therapies of this sort go) of helping them develop tools to move past that?

A significantly bad rate! As I posted earlier, one third ‘understand’ their homosexuality better (and are still gaining more ‘practical experience’ in the matter, if you get my drift); one third find the inclination reduced; one third are completely unaffected. ‘Reparative therapy’ has a success rate – as success should be measured for the goal of ‘curing’ homosexuality – hanging right around a whopping zero.

As far as the female lesbians using their position as a coach to get access, I am personally aware of four cases of that, each with multiple victims, and have heard about it several other times. There was also considerable descriptions of instances of that kind of coaching in the scandal within the Church with the very similar cases of early teen altar boys being groomed. This MO is relatively well known.

So did the victims forsake sex with men foreverafter? Have the abused altar boys turned completely from the straight and narrow? ‘This MO is relatively well known’ – what, do you actually believe in the Big Gay Conspiracy?

Since I’ve been pretty direct in my thinking that such treatment could not be forced on the unwilling with any hope of success, your responses are starting to sound like you think that those with SSA tendencies should be denied whatever tools are available to help them even if they want to change. Is your trouble with the particular methods used by NARTH, or with seeking ways in general to help those who want to eliminate SSA tendencies to do so? I’m having trouble telling, so perhaps you could clarify your position on that.

If someone wishes to change his or her sexual orientation, in any direction, I’m not going to get in the way, though I don’t think it’s a very good idea. My problem is indeed with NARTH; they are nothing more than modern-day snake oil salesmen.

 

[goofyjim]

A significantly bad rate! As I posted earlier, one third ‘understand’ their homosexuality better (and are still gaining more ‘practical experience’ in the matter, if you get my drift); one third find the inclination reduced; one third are completely unaffected. ‘Reparative therapy’ has a success rate – as success should be measured for the goal of ‘curing’ homosexuality – hanging right around a whopping zero.

So did the victims forsake sex with men foreverafter? Have the abused altar boys turned completely from the straight and narrow? ‘This MO is relatively well known’ – what, do you actually believe in the Big Gay Conspiracy?

If someone wishes to change his or her sexual orientation, in any direction, I’m not going to get in the way, though I don’t think it’s a very good idea. My problem is indeed with NARTH; they are nothing more than modern-day snake oil salesmen.

And I must agree with you Mirdath on that one as evidenced in the fact that they never accept any medical insurance for what they consider authentic psychiatry. They expect everyone who comes to them to run themselves in to the poorhouse for treatment. Shame on them.

 

[Bennie_P]

Just because a homosexual doesn’t want to change his/her lifestyle they have no right to dismiss reparatative therapy and claiming it being non-effective. It is just a sophist argument to cover up the issue if homosexual behavior is or is not “normal” and/or a disordered inclination. There is no scientific evidence a person is born to be “Gay” and the proof of burden is on those that make that claim.

Since the “gay” movement can’t prove it, the assertion that homosexuals are “born that way” remains nothing but a hypothesis: one which provides no justification for abandoning long-standing, experience-tested social policies. Remember, society doesn’t have to prove that homosexuality is not innate. “Gay” activists are the ones attempting to change things and the burden of proof is theirs.
Nevertheless, there is plenty of evidence that homosexuality is not innate. **There is a very considerable body of testimony from tens of thousands of men and women who once lived as homosexuals. These ex-“gays” have renounced their former lifestyles and many have become heterosexual in self-identification and desire, while others have stopped at the point of comfort with their own gender and freedom from same-sex desires. The “gay” movement’s challenge to former homosexuals to, in essence, prove they aren’t still innately “gay” is the height of absurdity since homosexual immutability was never proven in the first place. **

Have mental health associations banned the practice of change therapies?
No. To be sure, nearly all mental health associations have issued advisories concerning sexual orientation change in counseling. The one that has not, the American Mental Health Counseling Association, has taken no position on the subject. However, these organizations have not banned the practice of reorientation therapies. Consider the words of the former Executive Director of the American Psychological Association (APA), Raymond Fowler:

The APA’s position on reparative therapy is that those who wish to explore developing heterosexual feelings or behavior have a right to do so as part of every client’s right to self-determination. If an individual is comfortable with homosexuality, it is not the role of the therapist to convince the client otherwise. If one’s feelings are ego-dystonic and there is a desire to talk about changing, that is an acceptable choice and a psychologist may participate if he or she desires. – Ray Fowler, CEO, APA

This common sense statement makes clear that choosing an objective of reparative therapy is the decision of the client. Despite the fact that the mental health associations have politicized the issue of change, the APA chief makes it clear that participation does not violate ethical guidelines and may be an acceptable course. See also Ethical Principles of Psychologists and the Code of Conduct, American Psychological Association , Principle D. p 1599, 1992 (“[T]hat psychologists…respect the rights of individuals to privacy, confidentiality, self-determination and autonomy”). (Emphasis added.)

Dr. Spitzer was asked if the American Psychiatric Association should now revise the position statements revealing skepticism about sexual orientation change. He responded as follows:

I think they should; they will not be. It’s not going to happen in the near future, there’s no way it’s going to happen. I think the only issue is whether it goes beyond the position statement whether they go on to say its an ethical violation to do this kind of therapy but those position statements are not going to change. There’s, there’s a gay activist group that is strong and very vocal and recognized officially by the American Psychiatric Association. There’s nobody to give the other viewpoint. There may be a few people who believe it but they don’t talk. – Dr. Robert Spitzer, Columbia University
So despite Dr. Spitzer’s legitimate concerns that people not be forced into reorientation counseling, he clearly favors a revision in the official skepticism of mental health groups toward ex-gays. Dr. Spitzer has frequently commented that no one has any way to determine how many people can or will change, but he has stood by the view that sexual orientation is much more flexible than he thought before he conducted his study. So why would professional associations overlook the lives of ex-gays and claim reorientation to be ineffective? Dr. Spitzer related a hypothesis concerning that issue:

Now I do have to say that one of the concerns of people who have criticized the – the study has been criticized severely by many people particularly gay activists who apparently many feel quite threatened by it. I think they have the feeling that in order for them to get their civil rights its helpful to them if they can present the view that once you’re a homosexual it can never change. Which may actually, they may be right, politically it does help them but it may not be scientifically correct. – Dr. Robert Spitzer; 3/04

So why do critics keep beating the drum to eliminate reorientation counseling? According to Dr. Spitzer, it may have more to do with political objectives than clinical or professional ones.

The truth is Dr. Spitzer found that his participants benefited from their change experiences. Many were quite depressed prior to entering efforts to change sexuality and much improved afterwards. Dr. Spitzer notes: “The majority of the subjects reported moderate to severe depression before they were into therapy and there was marked change. Very few were depressed when we saw them.” In terms of numbers, 42% of men and 47% of women were clinically depressed. After counseling for change, only 1% of the men and 4% of the women continued to experience depression.

 

[Mirdath]

Just because a homosexual doesn’t want to change his/her lifestyle they have no right to dismiss reparatative therapy and claiming it being non-effective. It is just a sophist argument to cover up the issue if homosexual behavior is or is not “normal” and/or a disordered inclination. There is no scientific evidence a person is born to be “Gay” and the proof of burden is on those that make that claim.

I didn’t just dismiss it, I backed it up in Dr. Nicolosi’s own words. He admits it is practically never effective: one third ‘understand’ and still have sex, one third still have the inclination, one third aren’t effective at all. Out of his own mouth he condemns his practice.

I haven’t claimed people are born gay; I’ve claimed – and presented evidence – that ‘reparative therapy’ is a Bad Idea.
article:

The truth is Dr. Spitzer found that his participants benefited from their change experiences. Many were quite depressed prior to entering efforts to change sexuality and much improved afterwards. Dr. Spitzer notes: “The majority of the subjects reported moderate to severe depression before they were into therapy and there was marked change. Very few were depressed when we saw them.” In terms of numbers, 42% of men and 47% of women were clinically depressed. After counseling for change, only 1% of the men and 4% of the women continued to experience depression.

I thought Spitzer was trying to treat homosexuality, not depression!

 

[Bennie_P]

I didn’t just dismiss it, I backed it up in Dr. Nicolosi’s own words. He admits it is practically never effective: one third ‘understand’ and still have sex, one third still have the inclination, one third aren’t effective at all. Out of his own mouth he condemns his practice.

I haven’t claimed people are born gay; I’ve claimed – and presented evidence – that ‘reparative therapy’ is a Bad Idea.

I thought Spitzer was trying to treat homosexuality, not depression!

Just maybe, dealing with thier SSA is also a way to deal with other problems which seem to manifest at much higher rates in those with SSA and same sex lifestyle. Can’t say homosexulity is the cause but there sure is a hint of relationship of the problems.

Homosexuality and Mental Health

Serious mental health problems are also associated with same-sex relationships. A government-sponsored study of 5,998 Dutch adults ages 18 to 64 was published in the January, 2001 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association. Specifically, the study found that -
Compared to heterosexual men, males who engage in homosexual behavior are:

• 727 percent more likely to have suffered bipolar disorders at some point in their lives, and 502 percent more likely in the last twelve months.
• 718 percent more likely to have suffered obsessive-compulsive disorder in the last twelve months, and 620 percent more likely at some point in their lives.
• 632 percent more likely to have suffered agoraphobia (fear of leaving home or being in public) in the last twelve months, and 454 percent more likely at some point in their lives.
• 421 percent more likely to have suffered panic disorder, and 229 percent more likely to have suffered social phobia at some point in their lives.
• 375 percent more likely to have suffered simple phobia in the last twelve months, and 361 percent more likely at some point in their lives.
• 311 percent more likely to have suffered mood disorders at some point in their lives, and 293 percent more likely in the last twelve months.
• 261 percent more likely to have suffered anxiety disorders in the last twelve months, and 267 percent more likely over the course of their lifetimes.
• 270 percent more likely to have suffered two or more psychiatric disorders during their lifetime.
**• 235 percent more likely to have suffered major depression at some point in their lives.
**
Compared to heterosexual women, females who engage in homosexual behavior are:

• 405 percent more likely to have suffered a substance use disorder.
• 241 percent more likely to have suffered mood disorders during their lifetimes.
• 209 percent more likely to have suffered two or more mental disorders during their lifetimes.

 

[Mirdath]

Just maybe, dealing with thier SSA is also a way to deal with other problems which seem to manifest at much higher rates in those with SSA and same sex lifestyle. Can’t say homosexulity is the cause but there sure is a hint of relationship of the problems.

Then why does Spitzer toss us that statistic – dealing with depression – instead of giving a number for how many homosexuals he’s truly straightened up? Bad form, bad form. If he’s going to cure homosexuality, let’s see how effective that cure is at treating homosexuality, not depression!

And look closely at that list: depression, panic, anxiety, agoraphobia, et cetera, et cetera. Sure it’s correlated with homosexuality! Doesn’t it sound reasonable that social and familial pressure on gay people – it’s still in rare form, contrary to many social conservatives’ claim that homosexuals control society – would cause those sorts of problems, instead of the inclination causing them?

 

[Ray_Scheel]

A significantly bad rate! As I posted earlier, one third ‘understand’ their homosexuality better (and are still gaining more ‘practical experience’ in the matter, if you get my drift); one third find the inclination reduced; one third are completely unaffected. ‘Reparative therapy’ has a success rate – as success should be measured for the goal of ‘curing’ homosexuality – hanging right around a whopping zero.

I still can’t think of any other area of psychology where the therapeutic approaches require a 100% remission of all symptoms and residuals is required before that approach is considered successful at all. To draw a parallel to treatment in a different but well documented field, we can just look at how outcomes of treatment are measured in substance abuse treatment programs). There, less than total elimination of inclinations is still considered at least a partial success if frequency and severity of regressions were reduced.

So did the victims forsake sex with men foreverafter? Have the abused altar boys turned completely from the straight and narrow? ‘This MO is relatively well known’ – what, do you actually believe in the Big Gay Conspiracy?

No, I don’t, have never suggested a “Big Gay Conspiracy”, and combined with your prior bit about torture and brainwashing, this kind of emotionally charged language is now approaching an ad hominem type of accusation. There are some well known grooming tactics used by adults with attractions to young teens, and substantial correlations between a person’s first sexual experience and their ultimate self-identification.

But since you’ve brought it up, most of the gays I know do not actually endorse some of the most common points their PC protectors suggest the gay community wants. Case in point, if you check the platforms proposed as part of the landmark gay rights event, events in turn wholly endorsed by mouthpieces like Village Voice and The Advocate, the vast majority include language pushing for a reduction or removal of age of consent laws as one of their 8-12 points. However, I can’t find anyone claiming to be gay who is interested in that point themselves, so where did it come from if it was not he ground ranks? If there is a “conspiracy”, I’m presuming it is part and parcel of the usual suspects in the left wing / PC camp rather than gay community at large (which as far as I can tell would rather just be left to determine for themselves what they want).

If someone wishes to change his or her sexual orientation, in any direction, I’m not going to get in the way, though I don’t think it’s a very good idea.

Let me make sure I’m understanding this correctly: you think it is not a good idea to want (and try) to reduce one’s attraction to something that can only be achieved through sin? Is that a general rule, an attitude you limit to SSA issues, or am I misunderstanding you completely?

My problem is indeed with NARTH; they are nothing more than modern-day snake oil salesmen.

That I’ll accept based on what has been mentioned about none of its practitioners accepting insurance. However, I’ve seen nothing to explain why determining the effectiveness for a treatment to resolve SSA attractions issues requires such a radically higher bar compared to therapeutic approaches in the rest of psychology in order to be considered effective.

 

[Bennie_P]

Then why does Spitzer toss us that statistic – dealing with depression – instead of giving a number for how many homosexuals he’s truly straightened up? Bad form, bad form. If he’s going to cure homosexuality, let’s see how effective that cure is at treating homosexuality, not depression!

And look closely at that list: depression, panic, anxiety, agoraphobia, et cetera, et cetera. Sure it’s correlated with homosexuality! Doesn’t it sound reasonable that social and familial pressure on gay people – it’s still in rare form, contrary to many social conservatives’ claim that homosexuals control society – would cause those sorts of problems, instead of the inclination causing them?

No, it is more likley from the pressure comming from their own conscience of not being able to reconcile it with their disordered behavior. Similar psycological disorders that happen to long term abusers of alcohol and drugs. The longer one does something that they know is morally wrong, even if it is or has become uncontrollable, the self-hate seeks in and manifest itself in other psychological disorders. Your explanation is an escape mechanisms used by those that don’t want to take any responsibility for any of their own behavior, otherwise, “it’s not my fault it is your fault, worse then that it’s the world’s fault, wait a minute, no, it’s those self-righteous Christians’ faults, no it’s the Jews fault, no it’s God’s fault, but never my fault…” . We see this in homosexual aides’ patients also. “It is not my unnatural sexual behavior that gave me aides, it’s the government’s fault, because enough money for research isn’t being allocated for research, my teacher’s fault, they didn’t teach me about how to have safe sex in school, the Christian politicians’ fault, they’re letting us die because we are homosexual, I’m not responsible nor my behavior is responsible for me dying, you are…”

 

[Mirdath]

I still can’t think of any other area of psychology where the therapeutic approaches require a 100% remission of all symptoms and residuals is required before that approach is considered successful at all. To draw a parallel to treatment in a different but well documented field, we can just look at how outcomes of treatment are measured in substance abuse treatment programs). There, less than total elimination of inclinations is still considered at least a partial success if frequency and severity of regressions were reduced.

Substance abuse treatment is just that: treatment. It is not, and does not claim to be, a cure. A reformed alcoholic is still an alcoholic, albeit a dry one; a reformed junkie is one who hasn’t scored for a time. Both have to live with their conditions, without giving in to them. The ‘ex-gay’ movement promises something entirely different: to completely reorient the person! AA/NA and other substance programs do no such thing. They don’t remove the desire for alcohol or addictive drugs or replace it with a desire for grilled cheese sandwiches; but this is exactly what NARTH and Exodus intend to do, and unsurprisingly, they fail nigh-completely.

No, I don’t, have never suggested a “Big Gay Conspiracy”, and combined with your prior bit about torture and brainwashing, this kind of emotionally charged language is now approaching an ad hominem type of accusation. There are some well known grooming tactics used by adults with attractions to young teens, and substantial correlations between a person’s first sexual experience and their ultimate self-identification.

It is a highly emotional issue. I do apologize for the ‘big gay conspiracy’ comment, though; it was unnecessarily dismissive. I will stand by the torture and brainwashing line, though: it is more effective at reconditioning people than this ‘reparative therapy’.

But since you’ve brought it up, most of the gays I know do not actually endorse some of the most common points their PC protectors suggest the gay community wants. Case in point, if you check the platforms proposed as part of the landmark gay rights event, events in turn wholly endorsed by mouthpieces like Village Voice and The Advocate, the vast majority include language pushing for a reduction or removal of age of consent laws as one of their 8-12 points. However, I can’t find anyone claiming to be gay who is interested in that point themselves, so where did it come from if it was not he ground ranks? If there is a “conspiracy”, I’m presuming it is part and parcel of the usual suspects in the left wing / PC camp rather than gay community at large (which as far as I can tell would rather just be left to determine for themselves what they want).

There’s gay people and then there’s gay activists; and then there’s the lunatic fringe activists who often drown out everyone else. Just like any other group, really.

Let me make sure I’m understanding this correctly: you think it is not a good idea to want (and try) to reduce one’s attraction to something that can only be achieved through sin? Is that a general rule, an attitude you limit to SSA issues, or am I misunderstanding you completely?

Do remember that I’m not religious, and don’t believe homosexuality is immoral

I do not think it is a good idea to attempt to repress or do away with a part of the self that is harming no-one – and before anyone says it, I don’t believe in an immortal soul either. Attraction towards people, whether of the same sex or the opposite, is not harmful. Like heterosexual attraction, homosexual attraction can lead to many great and small wrongs – unhappy unions, stalking, and so on – but those wrongs are not the fault of the attraction itself; they are the fault of the person.

That I’ll accept based on what has been mentioned about none of its practitioners accepting insurance. However, I’ve seen nothing to explain why determining the effectiveness for a treatment to resolve SSA attractions issues requires such a radically higher bar compared to therapeutic approaches in the rest of psychology in order to be considered effective.

NARTH sets the bar itself: it claims to be able to cure homosexuality. They claim that one can change one’s orientation through their therapy – and the results show otherwise.

 

[Mirdath]

No, it is more likley from the pressure comming from their own conscience of not being able to reconcile it with their disordered behavior. Similar psycological disorders that happen to long term abusers of alcohol and drugs.

References or it didn’t happen. Out of curiosity, how long is long-term for substance abuse? Because if I qualify, I can tell you right now you’re talking out of your hat.

The longer one does something that they know is morally wrong, even if it is or has become uncontrollable, the self-hate seeks in and manifest itself in other psychological disorders.

‘Natural law’ won’t wash. I know you think homosexuality is morally wrong, but I don’t, and you cannot show me that ‘don’t be gay’ is graven upon my heart. Nor do I hate myself for being attracted to both sexes more or less equally; in fact, I think it’s pretty neat that I’m not concerned first and foremost with what’s between the legs of anybody I look at.

Your explanation is an escape mechanisms used by those that don’t want to take any responsibility for any of their own behavior, otherwise, “it’s not my fault it is your fault, worse then that it’s the world’s fault, wait a minute, no, it’s those self-righteous Christians’ faults, no it’s the Jews fault, no it’s God’s fault, but never my fault…” .

I take full responsibility for my actions and behaviors. I don’t offer such excuses as ‘the devil tempted me’ or ‘I’m doing this because God says I should’: the buck stops right here. Would that all Christians could do the same!

 

[Ray_Scheel]

There’s gay people and then there’s gay activists; and then there’s the lunatic fringe activists who often drown out everyone else. Just like any other group, really.

Yeah, they are everywhere, and they generally annoy me even when they seem to be arguing for the same position I am…
edit: BTW, apology accepted on the BGC comment

Do remember that I’m not religious, and don’t believe homosexuality is immoral

I’ve apparently missed your prior mentions of this, though I was suspecting as much. At this point I think most of what remains unresolved centers more along that basic difference in religious philosophy than anything else, so unless you have something else to pick on me about a little more, I’m going to try to bow out.

 

[Bennie_P]

References or it didn’t happen. Out of curiosity, how long is long-term for substance abuse? Because if I qualify, I can tell you right now you’re talking out of your hat.

‘Natural law’ won’t wash. I know you think homosexuality is morally wrong, but I don’t, and you cannot show me that ‘don’t be gay’ is graven upon my heart. Nor do I hate myself for being attracted to both sexes more or less equally; in fact, I think it’s pretty neat that I’m not concerned first and foremost with what’s between the legs of anybody I look at.

I take full responsibility for my actions and behaviors. I don’t offer such excuses as ‘the devil tempted me’ or ‘I’m doing this because God says I should’: the buck stops right here. Would that all Christians could do the same!

Who was taking about you?

 

[goofyjim]

I continue to tread the middle ground here. I accept the immorality of homosexual acts but I don’t see why we live in irrational fear of same sex attraction. It is not a disease that is catching through the air. Noone wakes up and determines to be same sex attracted. They either are or they aren’t. I dream of a world where noone is judged anymore for who they are attracted to. It is been mentioned by a prominent priest I know that the Church in its infinite wisdom probably has many saints tucked away in its calendar that struggled with ssa all their lives and never went to a psychologist to have it changed. They accepted their humanity, lived chastely according to their state in life and just never revealed it to anyone. And that’s what I would tell someone who came to me with the issue. I would tell them there is no reason to change unless they feel called to.

 

[Mirdath]

It is been mentioned by a prominent priest I know that the Church in its infinite wisdom probably has many saints tucked away in its calendar that struggled with ssa all their lives and never went to a psychologist to have it changed. They accepted their humanity, lived chastely according to their state in life and just never revealed it to anyone. And that’s what I would tell someone who came to me with the issue. I would tell them there is no reason to change unless they feel called to.

I know Sts. Sergius and Bacchus, among others, have been ‘adopted’ as patrons by some homosexual Catholics, but I haven’t been able to find much material on them.

 

[goofyjim]

I know Sts. Sergius and Bacchus, among others, have been ‘adopted’ as patrons by some homosexual Catholics, but I haven’t been able to find much material on them.

Just be careful. That does not give Catholics the permission to practice sex outside of marriage. I doubt even if they are patron saints of homosexual Catholics that they had a sexual relationship.

 

[Bennie_P]

I know Sts. Sergius and Bacchus, among others, have been ‘adopted’ as patrons by some homosexual Catholics, but I haven’t been able to find much material on them.

They were officers of troops on the frontier, Sergius being primicerius, and Bacchus secundarius. According to the legend, there were high in esteem of the Caesar Maximianus on account of their bravery, but this favour was turned into hate when they acknowledged their Christian faith. When examined under torture they were beaten so severely with thongs that Bacchus died under the blows. Sergius, though, had much more suffering to endure; among other tortures, as the legend relates, he had to run eighteen miles in shoes which were covered on the soles with sharp-pointed nails that pierced through the foot. He was finally beheaded.

 

[goofyjim]

Without ever knowing for sure we can’t say some of the saints didn’t experience same sex attraction. I’m sure someone who experiences same sex attraction today without going to a therapist has a shot at heaven like anyone else. My goal is heaven not to get rid of my ssa.

 

[pathia]

I can’t speak as to the science, there aren’t many studies of the effects and success rate of reparative therapy, however I can tell you about it, seeing as I was subjected to it as a teenager.

My parents spent roughly twenty thousand dollars on it, maybe more, it’s somewhat blurry as to what it was in the end.

This included summer camps more or less, where we were taken off to learn to be more masculine or feminine. The counselors, mostly men and women who were proclaimed to have been cured, would often ‘inspect’ us to make sure we weren’t wearing anything gender-non-appropriate. This would include stripping us to the underwear and inspecting the underwear, make sure the girls weren’t wearing boxers, boys not wearing abercrombie and fitch, things like that.

Read into that what you will, I was never molested, but I heard stories from other teens there who claimed they were. Many counselors had ‘relapses’ with each other, some quit and vanished off together as couples even. They just went quiet about them if that happened. I was also told by the camp leader that committing suicide was better in the eyes of God than living with SSA. This happened right after one of the campers didn’t return after the weekend, they had shot themselves at home with their father’s gun.

I was also hooked up to a zapping machine, and they would flash images of pornography and they would zap/play a loud noise at any of the pornography inappropriate for your gender. All that succeeded in doing was make me feel a phantom ‘zap’ when I hugged my father and brothers.

It didn’t work, and they more or less disowned me from their therapy sessions when they found out my chromosomes were messed up. Money went missing, bills were bigger than expected.

It was just a waste of time and money. Maybe not for everyone though, but consider me skeptical. It smelled of snake oil to me the entire time, but I was a minor and had no choice.

I made lots of friends during those times, don’t get me wrong. You mostly remember the bad things, and I was only 13-17 during all this, so much of it is blurry now. Still…it’s always seemed like snake oil to me ever since. I could be proven wrong some day though.

Oh, I should note none of this was associated with Courage or the Church. My family went through this wandering away from the Church around the same time and we were going to non-denominational evangelical churches at the time.

 

[goofyjim]

I can’t speak as to the science, there aren’t many studies of the effects and success rate of reparative therapy, however I can tell you about it, seeing as I was subjected to it as a teenager.

My parents spent roughly twenty thousand dollars on it, maybe more, it’s somewhat blurry as to what it was in the end.

This included summer camps more or less, where we were taken off to learn to be more masculine or feminine. The counselors, mostly men and women who were proclaimed to have been cured, would often ‘inspect’ us to make sure we weren’t wearing anything gender-non-appropriate. This would include stripping us to the underwear and inspecting the underwear, make sure the girls weren’t wearing boxers, boys not wearing abercrombie and fitch, things like that.

Read into that what you will, I was never molested, but I heard stories from other teens there who claimed they were. Many counselors had ‘relapses’ with each other, some quit and vanished off together as couples even. They just went quiet about them if that happened. I was also told by the camp leader that committing suicide was better in the eyes of God than living with SSA. This happened right after one of the campers didn’t return after the weekend, they had shot themselves at home with their father’s gun.

I was also hooked up to a zapping machine, and they would flash images of pornography and they would zap/play a loud noise at any of the pornography inappropriate for your gender. All that succeeded in doing was make me feel a phantom ‘zap’ when I hugged my father and brothers.

It didn’t work, and they more or less disowned me from their therapy sessions when they found out my chromosomes were messed up. Money went missing, bills were bigger than expected.

It was just a waste of time and money. Maybe not for everyone though, but consider me skeptical. It smelled of snake oil to me the entire time, but I was a minor and had no choice.

I made lots of friends during those times, don’t get me wrong. You mostly remember the bad things, and I was only 13-17 during all this, so much of it is blurry now. Still…it’s always seemed like snake oil to me ever since. I could be proven wrong some day though.

Oh, I should note none of this was associated with Courage or the Church. My family went through this wandering away from the Church around the same time and we were going to non-denominational evangelical churches at the time.

And this counselor who told you it is better to commit suicide than to live with SSA is talking nonsense. I would never listen to anything like that. I would say some very uncharitable words in return to someone like that. Your story of the extra chromosomes is exactly my point. What are people afraid of in finding that SSA is biological. Does it make less of a sin to act out homosexually? No. But it would at least tell us not to put us through the misery you were subjected to. Keep telling your story and don’t ever consider suicide as an option.