Effeminate Behavior

[LightBound]

It’s not junior high, and its not catholic men. It is the way society is. You have never heard someone say “be a man” or something similar?

I dont know whether you are a man or woman. I am assuming you are a woman and that you think simply that a man should be able to switch to being passive. Women have charged their roles and become more assertive, so it is reasonable that men could just as easily change their roles and become passive. Is any of that right? The problem is that passivity makes men feel impotent because it actually makes them impotent.

Women can do what they want, but chances are they should find someone who is just as motivated as themselves because if she doesn’t they will both be unhappy.

I don’t know why you keep going on about being passive…, all that I have posted was about chores in the home and careers as far as some ignorant people deciding those must be determined and divided by gender. You keep bringing up the “passive” part…

No point in continuing this since we’re not talking about the same topic…

 

[jimmy]

I don’t know why you keep going on about being passive…, all that I have posted was about chores in the home and careers as far as some ignorant people deciding those must be determined and divided by gender. You keep bringing up the “passive” part…

No point in continuing this since we’re not talking about the same topic…

Because you responded to what I said, and I never said anything negative about doing chores and cleaning. Sure men can do chores and clean. There is nothing wrong with that. I don’t know any men who don’t already do chores around the house.

 

[Baelor]

When a man doesn’t want to be a man, or a woman a woman, there’s a fundamental problem there and a lack of appreciation of what it means to be this.

There is no debate about that. The question is what constitutes “not wanting to be a man.”

Are you saying there are no differences in psychology between men and women? Are you saying that there are no genetic predispositions for behavior? Because those are necessary presuppositions for your argument. You are forced to assume that there are no norms and no predispositions of behavior.

That is obviously not at all a prerequisite of his post. You are making no sense. Are you saying that literally every aspect of our society is based on genetic predeterminers? If so, how do you explain historical and geographical diversity in gender roles?

Man, that was easy to rip apart.

Also, it is not as if the psychology of every male or every female is identical, so that is irrelevant anyway.

This supports the fact that there are norms (including psychological norms that deal with the difference in the ways men and women think) that are different between men and women.

Not at all, because I could easily respond that the mentioned dominions are in fact culturally produced. Why is that a less valid explanation? (for the record, I do not feel qualified to call this either way).

No woman wants a passive man who will stay home and clean, and no man wants to be passive while his wife is assertive and driven.

Speak for yourself. Are you really willing to make an absolute claim that embraces 7,000,000,000 people?

Men are viewed as not being men (by both men and women) if they aren’t assertive and willing to go out and risk it all. They will tell him “grow a pair” or “be a man”. If a man stays at home while his wife works, they will say to him “be a man”. Or they will talk behind his back about how she could have done better. Maybe he’s comfortable in that situation (comfort isn’t necessarily good), but that is the way everyone is looking at the situation. He has basically been neutered, and chances are he feels it too.

Who on earth are these people? I have never met them.

It’s not junior high, and its not catholic men. It is the way society is. You have never heard someone say “be a man” or something similar? It’s not machismo, it’s self respect. Any man with a little self respect expects to support himself. It’s not a comfort to be unproductive or to be dependant.

I have never heard that. And men with self-respect do not necessarily need to support themselves financially. And I would question whether anyone who receives a paycheck from another source actually supports himself.

I dont know whether you are a man or woman. I am assuming you are a woman and that you think simply that a man should be able to switch to being passive.

You fallaciously presuppose a “switch.”

 

[jimmy]

There is no debate about that. The question is what constitutes “not wanting to be a man.”

That is obviously not at all a prerequisite of his post. You are making no sense. Are you saying that literally every aspect of our society is based on genetic predeterminers? If so, how do you explain historical and geographical diversity in gender roles?

Yes, it is a presupposition. Simply saying it isn’t doesn’t make it so.

Man, that was easy to rip apart.

Excuse my language, but you sound like an ahole. It’s easy to assume you have ripped something apart when you haven’t even made an argument.

Also, it is not as if the psychology of every male or every female is identical, so that is irrelevant anyway.

That isn’t my argument so it is irrelevant. My argument is that men have a certain disposition and wen have another disposition. There may be variation but that doesnt change the norm. Men tend to be assertive, women passive. No one would argue this but you. Go watch how men and women behave around each other. Who begins the conversation, who pursues the relationship?

Not at all, because I could easily respond that the mentioned dominions are in fact culturally produced. Why is that a less valid explanation? (for the record, I do not feel qualified to call this either way).

Show me one culture where that is the case. Show me the culture where the women hunt for food and provide for men. Show me the culture where women pursue men as the object of beauty. Show me one culture where men are stay at home fathers while women are out working in the fields or whatever to feed the family. Sure, you can make an argument. That doesn’t make it true. The fact is that in all cultures, men provide for the family in an economic sense. Is that offensive to you as a woman? Do you wish to make men irrelevant?

Speak for yourself. Are you really willing to make an absolute claim that embraces 7,000,000,000 people?

I am glad to make a statement that encompasses 99% of the population.

Who on earth are these people? I have never met them.

Maybe your a hermit then, because these are just ordinary people. Maybe you want a submissive man, but that isn’t the case with 99% percent of women.

 

[Baelor]

Yes, it is a presupposition. Simply saying it isn’t doesn’t make it so.

Again, nothing in his post necessarily presupposed a rejection of genetic differences in general between men and women.

Excuse my language, but you sound like an ahole. It’s easy to assume you have ripped something apart when you haven’t even made an argument.

LOL.

My argument is that men have a certain disposition and wen have another disposition.

Which has no basis in scientific reality. Men in general may have a certain disposition while women in general may have a different one.

There may be variation but that doesnt change the norm. Men tend to be assertive, women passive. No one would argue this but you.

I am not arguing this.

Go watch how men and women behave around each other. Who begins the conversation, who pursues the relationship?

Out of people I know? Women and men.

Show me one culture where that is the case. Show me the culture where the women hunt for food and provide for men. Show me the culture where women pursue men as the object of beauty. Show me one culture where men are stay at home fathers while women are out working in the fields or whatever to feed the family. Sure, you can make an argument. That doesn’t make it true. The fact is that in all cultures, men provide for the family in an economic sense. Is that offensive to you as a woman? Do you wish to make men irrelevant?

Jimmy, you are raving like a madman because you are angry and frustrated and that has affected your ability to process what I am saying. Please reread my posts:

Baelor:

Not at all, because I could easily respond that the mentioned dominions are in fact culturally produced.

Those dominions are viz.

Jala:

Exactly what the heck is “effeminate?” Cooking? Doing housework? Changing the baby’s diapers? Being short of stature? Having a high-pitched voice? Wearing pink? Being a nurse instead of a doctor?

I made no statement about the following:

1. Women hunting for food
2. Women pursuing men
3. Stay-at-home fathers
4. Women providing for families

Why are you pretending that those things relate to my statement? Are you familiar with the strawman fallacy? Perhaps you should consider taking a class in logic and dialectic before posting here again.

I am glad to make a statement that encompasses 99% of the population.

Can you justify empirically that degree of applicability?

Is that offensive to you as a woman?

Maybe your a hermit then, because these are just ordinary people. Maybe you want a submissive man, but that isn’t the case with 99% percent of women.

I am male. Please do not make assumptions about my sex. You could have simply asked me; I would have told you what sex I am.

 

[InJesusItrust]

I think too many people assume that being sensitive means that you cannot be a male. I think many sensitive males learn in high school learn to wear an outer shell and pretend to be pricks to fit in. When we are kids we can be who we really are, but in the adult world we have to keep false appearances. Is it fair that womanizing and being a jerk is the pinnacle of manhood to the young? When all your friends seek sex and you just desire a true relationship?

 

[Litcrit]

Men tend to be assertive, women passive. No one would argue this but you. Go watch how men and women behave around each other. Who begins the conversation, who pursues the relationship?

Show me one culture where that is the case. Show me the culture where the women hunt for food and provide for men. Show me the culture where women pursue men as the object of beauty. Show me one culture where men are stay at home fathers while women are out working in the fields or whatever to feed the family. Sure, you can make an argument. That doesn’t make it true. The fact is that in all cultures, men provide for the family in an economic sense. Is that offensive to you as a woman? Do you wish to make men irrelevant?

Watch how boys and girls behave together as toddlers. Shy boys will be approached for play by more assertive girls and vice versa. There does seem to be a “nature” component in how assertive a small child is, but it has little to do with the sex, and more to do with the individual child. When they grow up, some assertive girls do go against cultural expectations and ask boys out - I’ve done this. Some don’t want to be seen as “forward” and “unfeminine” and they wait. And wait. And wait. Some guys are just naturally shy, and that really is fine. What’s not fine is that even if there’s mutual attraction between a shy guy and an assertive girl, sometimes nothing will happen as a result of stereotypical expectations.

My very patriarchal culture has always expected women to provide economically - yes, work in the fields, later work in the factories, *and *do housework on top of that. So, no, it’s not a “fact” that men provide economically in all cultures. Actually, you’ll find that most people in the world don’t even have the privilege of not having all adults in the family work. As a woman raised in my culture, I have always understood that I’d have to work in order to stay alive.

My SAHD husband is very relevant to me. Are you saying that the person who doesn’t provide for the family economically is irrelevant? In your subculture, are those women who don’t work irrelevant because of this?

 

[Regular_Atheist]

I don’t really have an opinion on this, but I can say that I know a guy who had a father who was very close to them, had male-role models, and he’s quite effeminate. He does it subconsciously, though, obviously. He’s cisgender, is heterosexual, etc. Personally, I feel that gender roles are cultural, so what we consider to be masculine or effeminate is purely a subjective thing.

Obviously, I can’t contribute to this since I don’t know if there’s an particular Catholic view on this, but I just thought I’d throw that out there.

 

[Sarcelle]

There are real differences between men and women but it goes beyond mere stereotypes. Frankly I think stereotypes distort or dare I say, pervert the real meaning of masculinity and femininity, both of which are gifts from God.

This is why I wince when I hear the word effeminate. It has different meanings for different people. Most of the standards that are used when gauging authentic masculinity or femininity come from stereotypes. I am often accused of being unfeminine because I liked science, and didn’t care about shopping. I have a good friend who is also accused of being effeminate because he didn’t like football and wasn’t good at sports. Ask him to program a computer and he can run circles around you.

 

[PRmerger]

Exactly what the heck is “effeminate?”

This:

youtube.com/watch?v=-PK6QkZG_Y0

(Warning: please note–sexual innuendo is contained in the dialogue so if you find it offensive, simply turn sound off and watch the behavior.)

 

[fix]

Please see: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=701428

Does his answer bother anyone else?

I suppose my main issue is that I don’t necessary agree with the premise that this is always a learned behavior.

Moreover, the idea of certain behaviors reserved for males and certain behaviors reserved for females just… bothers me. I understand the importance of gender roles, but is it ok that I think this might be taking it a little overboard?

It should not bother any thinking Catholic.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, it is a presupposition. Simply saying it isn’t doesn’t make it so.

Excuse my language, but you sound like an ahole. It’s easy to assume you have ripped something apart when you haven’t even made an argument.

That isn’t my argument so it is irrelevant. My argument is that men have a certain disposition and wen have another disposition. There may be variation but that doesnt change the norm. Men tend to be assertive, women passive. No one would argue this but you. Go watch how men and women behave around each other. Who begins the conversation, who pursues the relationship?

Show me one culture where that is the case. Show me the culture where the women hunt for food and provide for men. Show me the culture where women pursue men as the object of beauty. Show me one culture where men are stay at home fathers while women are out working in the fields or whatever to feed the family. Sure, you can make an argument. That doesn’t make it true. The fact is that in all cultures, men provide for the family in an economic sense. Is that offensive to you as a woman? Do you wish to make men irrelevant?

I am glad to make a statement that encompasses 99% of the population.

Maybe your a hermit then, because these are just ordinary people. Maybe you want a submissive man, but that isn’t the case with 99% percent of women.