J
JimO
Guest
Hey, I resemble that remark.
- Status
F
Franciscan
Guest
QUOTE]Is the issue gay priests or is the issue effeminate mannerisms? Because not all gay men act in an effeminate manner.
I think if there are some priests that are gay but 1. Are celibate 2. don’t act in an effeminate manner …then that is a private matter between that person and God.
So its about being effeminate.
Young men want men that they can look up to and emulate. This will lead to vocations. But as it is now many young men associate the priesthood with this effeminate quality. Its sad because if you look at Peter and the Apostles we can see that they were manly men. (By manly Im talking about real men not what our culture promotes as manly like promisquity, drunkenness, dumb jock etc). Men who forcefully stand for the truth of the gospel. Men who are willing to become martyrs etc.
I think if there are some priests that are gay but 1. Are celibate 2. don’t act in an effeminate manner …then that is a private matter between that person and God.
So its about being effeminate.
Young men want men that they can look up to and emulate. This will lead to vocations. But as it is now many young men associate the priesthood with this effeminate quality. Its sad because if you look at Peter and the Apostles we can see that they were manly men. (By manly Im talking about real men not what our culture promotes as manly like promisquity, drunkenness, dumb jock etc). Men who forcefully stand for the truth of the gospel. Men who are willing to become martyrs etc.
C
contemplative
Guest
Here is a recent NewsWeek article titled…
Real Men Talk About God
A new Christian movement lets guys be guys.
It doesn’t hurt to read what others are doing in response to effeminancy and religious.
Real Men Talk About God
A new Christian movement lets guys be guys.
It doesn’t hurt to read what others are doing in response to effeminancy and religious.
C
chotock
Guest
While I like the Killers, they probably are not the best choice for using in a Christian enviroment. Some of the references are a bit off color. I can see what they are attempting but ummm, there is a difference between men and brutes. Whatever happened to chivalry and gentleman like behaviours I was lectured on in Boy Scouts and in Basic Training?
S
scylla
Guest
As others have said this is usually a result of society seeping into the Church peoples thinking.
What is the ideal is what the Church is founded upon. Men should be the image of Christ, sacrificing for others their lives as men are called to do. We are to die to ourselves for others, regardless of being called to the priesthood or to another vocation. This is the proper way to be a father, either celibate or with a family, reproducing spiritually and\or physically.
A woman is called to be the image of Mary he Church as submitting and supporting the Man in his mission to bring people to Jesus and reproduce, whether spiritually or physically. A womans holiness brings her husband to Christ, a man’s headship leads a family to Christ. The woman must be strong enough to support the man and know that as Mary accompanied Jesus on His walk to Calvary so must a woman accompany her man as he carries his cross.
These ideals are both attacked and confused in this day and age and even many Catholic women have bought into society’s replacement of the Christian ideal.
This leads to women who think their fullfillment is being like men, and men who think that their fullfillment is dominating or submitting to women and proving themselves.
This leads to emasculated or horribly sinful men and butch\frustrated sinful women.
God Bless
Scylla
What is the ideal is what the Church is founded upon. Men should be the image of Christ, sacrificing for others their lives as men are called to do. We are to die to ourselves for others, regardless of being called to the priesthood or to another vocation. This is the proper way to be a father, either celibate or with a family, reproducing spiritually and\or physically.
A woman is called to be the image of Mary he Church as submitting and supporting the Man in his mission to bring people to Jesus and reproduce, whether spiritually or physically. A womans holiness brings her husband to Christ, a man’s headship leads a family to Christ. The woman must be strong enough to support the man and know that as Mary accompanied Jesus on His walk to Calvary so must a woman accompany her man as he carries his cross.
These ideals are both attacked and confused in this day and age and even many Catholic women have bought into society’s replacement of the Christian ideal.
This leads to women who think their fullfillment is being like men, and men who think that their fullfillment is dominating or submitting to women and proving themselves.
This leads to emasculated or horribly sinful men and butch\frustrated sinful women.
God Bless
Scylla
B
BLB_Oregon
Guest
May I jump in and say that a “masculine attitude” has not by any means always been something that the monks would welcome coming in the door. It has too often been self-satisfied, loud, competitive, and concerned with preserving pride.
It was not so long ago when it was considered effeminate to think that there wasn’t any work that was beneath you. It was not so long ago that “a man’s man” would never counsel a son being bullied to “turn the other cheek”: that is, to resist, but non-violently. That was sissy behavior. Forget what the gospel says: Real men hit back!
Honestly, I think that if there is a secular problem, it is the change in secular heroes…that is, the societal definition of a “real man.” Superman did not destroy the whole city in the process of catching the bad guys. The Lone Ranger never used foul language and was never disrespectful towards women. Marshall Dillon didn’t treat Miss Kitty like a second-class citizen, but as a trusted friend and a decent business owner. Do we need to even start on the difference in behavior tolerated in sports stars? In the old days, they at least had to hide their carousing and mischief off the field. (Don’t any of you remember when swaggering and boasting was considered “bush league” behavior that grown men did not indulge in, lest it seem that winning was a novel experience for them?)
If the so-called “masculine” guys didn’t define their own masculinity based on such nonsense as they do now, if they didn’t accept the vapid substitute for manhood that the “man’s men” seem to favor now, rather than real virtues like courage, self-control, humility, prudence, love, honesty, protection of the weak, and so on, perhaps the young men would have no problem finding any really good priest an inspiration.
“But I can’t relate to him!” Is whining because the world doesn’t revolve around you now considered manly behavior? The first rule of acting like a man is that you act like a grown-up. If this thread started by complaining that there weren’t enough really virtuous men in the world, cleric or lay, then you’d have an ear…but a lilting voice, slight body type, and a nonathletic choice of hobbies? What petty complaints! I think anyone who decides that they won’t relate to a priest because he doesn’t think God granted the priest enough testosterone needs to get a grip and grow up.
Any man with enough starch to openly live a virtuous life in this day and age is man enough for me. Keep the main thing the main thing, and don’t sweat the little stuff. That starts with remembering what the difference between the main thing and the little stuff really is.
It was not so long ago when it was considered effeminate to think that there wasn’t any work that was beneath you. It was not so long ago that “a man’s man” would never counsel a son being bullied to “turn the other cheek”: that is, to resist, but non-violently. That was sissy behavior. Forget what the gospel says: Real men hit back!
Honestly, I think that if there is a secular problem, it is the change in secular heroes…that is, the societal definition of a “real man.” Superman did not destroy the whole city in the process of catching the bad guys. The Lone Ranger never used foul language and was never disrespectful towards women. Marshall Dillon didn’t treat Miss Kitty like a second-class citizen, but as a trusted friend and a decent business owner. Do we need to even start on the difference in behavior tolerated in sports stars? In the old days, they at least had to hide their carousing and mischief off the field. (Don’t any of you remember when swaggering and boasting was considered “bush league” behavior that grown men did not indulge in, lest it seem that winning was a novel experience for them?)
If the so-called “masculine” guys didn’t define their own masculinity based on such nonsense as they do now, if they didn’t accept the vapid substitute for manhood that the “man’s men” seem to favor now, rather than real virtues like courage, self-control, humility, prudence, love, honesty, protection of the weak, and so on, perhaps the young men would have no problem finding any really good priest an inspiration.
“But I can’t relate to him!” Is whining because the world doesn’t revolve around you now considered manly behavior? The first rule of acting like a man is that you act like a grown-up. If this thread started by complaining that there weren’t enough really virtuous men in the world, cleric or lay, then you’d have an ear…but a lilting voice, slight body type, and a nonathletic choice of hobbies? What petty complaints! I think anyone who decides that they won’t relate to a priest because he doesn’t think God granted the priest enough testosterone needs to get a grip and grow up.
Any man with enough starch to openly live a virtuous life in this day and age is man enough for me. Keep the main thing the main thing, and don’t sweat the little stuff. That starts with remembering what the difference between the main thing and the little stuff really is.
G
Georgess
Guest
Any man with enough starch to openly live a virtuous life in this day and age is man enough for me. Keep the main thing the main thing, and don’t sweat the little stuff. That starts with remembering what the difference between the main thing and the little stuff really is.
All good points …
May be as a cultural by product, some of us have become too sensitive, and read more into that phrase than it deserves !
All good points …
May be as a cultural by product, some of us have become too sensitive, and read more into that phrase than it deserves !
K
kim3260
Guest
What you are descibing is the total bedown of family values with the idea that a woman does not “need” a man. Now it spilling over into real life as we can see with the divorce rate or women who never marry and have children with either a one night stand or artificial means. Also it is spilling over into Religions, granted we do not have women Priests, like other Religions, but they are incresingly replacing men. Take note at Sunday Mass or just look at the bulletin under Altar Servers just to see their next weeks schedule, it starting at a young age, I don’t remember many boys being named Nicole, Rebecca or Cassandra.
N
Norseman82
Guest
I know I’m risking inviting a thread hijack here, but the following article appeared in the alumni newsletter of the HS seminary I attended:
(continued in next post)
N
Norseman82
Guest
(from the Quigley Alumni Newsletter, spring 1999. Not copyrighted).
L
lizaanne
Guest
AMEN to that!!!
I have to say that I’m more than a bit irritated by this thread. It seems to say that just because a man may be more effeminate, that he is less holy, and not worthy of being a priest! I don’t believe that a man has any control over how “manly” his body may look, or his voice may sound. And because of this we are to condemn him and tell him he can’t be a priest?
That’s not what I’M called to be. I’m called to accept and love my neighbor, and to respect my priest regardless of what he may look or sound like. Whether or not I have a warm fuzzy over how “manly” he is or not.
Hogwash.
A priest is still a man of God. He’s not a billboard to be advertising to boys who don’t have good examples in their own homes. And what of the boy who has a dad who might be less “manly” than most? Who loves his father and looks up to him? Should he believe that his own father is less of a “man” because he might be a bit effeminate?
How horribly judging and insensitive. I certainly hope we don’t have any young members here considering the priesthood who might be good and holy young men, but slight of build and voice. Guess we might as well just tell them to go elsewhere.
~Liza
R
Ryan_Smith
Guest
You made good points except for the heretic part. We are obliged to report someone misleading the faithful. The entire point of the Catholic Church is that there is unity in what is taught to the faithful. If a priest is teaching contrary to that then he is in schism and therefore outside the fold.
G
Georgess
Guest
Guess some of the confusion here is due to the way persons are giving diffrent meanings to the term effeminate - would have assumed , most persons are thinking of (hopefully the few) who seem to have many of the negative characterestics of (fallen) nature of womenkind themselves ,as mentioned in St.Paul’s letters to Timothy and Titus - being idle, vain, not willing to stand up and defend what ought to be …irrevernt towards The Church and her teachings…and thus bordering on being slanderers and complainers and such …
Physical characterestics alone would not have drawn much negative attention per se , unless it seemed to fit in with the other perceived negatives …
After all, what is more manly than seeing a dedicated priest offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, with fervor and devotion, and the homily, in whatever tone , given with conviction and faith …or seeing the priest, in the Adoration Chapel , deep in prayer…guarding the household, and in spirtual combat …being gentle yet firm in the confessional …
And , in places where they have probably never even seen a wrestling match, or played football, there are dedicated young men, coming out of seminaries - focused , dignified , witnessing - the way they spend time , in deep prayer , after communion, at the end of the Holy Mass …reverence for the Church, other priests and so on …
Physical characterestics alone would not have drawn much negative attention per se , unless it seemed to fit in with the other perceived negatives …
After all, what is more manly than seeing a dedicated priest offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, with fervor and devotion, and the homily, in whatever tone , given with conviction and faith …or seeing the priest, in the Adoration Chapel , deep in prayer…guarding the household, and in spirtual combat …being gentle yet firm in the confessional …
And , in places where they have probably never even seen a wrestling match, or played football, there are dedicated young men, coming out of seminaries - focused , dignified , witnessing - the way they spend time , in deep prayer , after communion, at the end of the Holy Mass …reverence for the Church, other priests and so on …
R
Ryan_Smith
Guest
Georgess,
That was a wonderful post and truly shows what is most important in a priest! I do think that most men, myself included, are taken aback initially by another man who behaves in an effemminate manner. This is a reaction to someone who is outside of normal behavior patterns and perhaps is a natural and instinctual response. I know from my personal experience that it generally takes time for that first impression of offness to be taken away and replaced by their true charactor. However, immediate trust is impossible due to that alarm going off in my head of: “Something is wrong with this person. Proceed with caution.” My reaction would be the same for a masculine acting woman. Whether this is right or wrong is truly not important because it is just human self preservation instinct.
That was a wonderful post and truly shows what is most important in a priest! I do think that most men, myself included, are taken aback initially by another man who behaves in an effemminate manner. This is a reaction to someone who is outside of normal behavior patterns and perhaps is a natural and instinctual response. I know from my personal experience that it generally takes time for that first impression of offness to be taken away and replaced by their true charactor. However, immediate trust is impossible due to that alarm going off in my head of: “Something is wrong with this person. Proceed with caution.” My reaction would be the same for a masculine acting woman. Whether this is right or wrong is truly not important because it is just human self preservation instinct.
M
Maxply
Guest
If a man perceives a priest as effeminate, the parishioner will probably figure the priest just isn’t going to be very sensitive to male interests. Women already seem to run many of the parishioner-functions of the church, but pair that with an effeminate priest, it just suggests a reduction of the amount of male-interest stuff going on in the parish.
One other reason men have difficulty relating to church is that they feel they’ll get chastized for acting up, joshing around, joking around, etc. Perhaps accidentally swear, then get a cold, cold look from old Mrs. Adams. . .
And in the battle of the sexes, women will always win the most credit for social civility.
One other reason men have difficulty relating to church is that they feel they’ll get chastized for acting up, joshing around, joking around, etc. Perhaps accidentally swear, then get a cold, cold look from old Mrs. Adams. . .
And in the battle of the sexes, women will always win the most credit for social civility.
U
unworthy
Guest
By “effeminate” I think that one has already made a judgment about a priest. Men who are supposedly “effeminate” act that way instinctively, it’s the way they are born. The same with women, like myself, who would be considered “manly” just because we are physically robust, aggressive, loud and competitive.
I think it is shameful that anyone should judge someone as unfitting to the priesthood or as “gay” because of their physical actions. Any priest or nun could “draw away” someone from something.
It is the biggest judgment to think that someone is “gay” or will care only about certain matters because they act a certain way. It just shows how much the media has polluted people’s thinking.
In any case, if by “effeminate” one is referring to the previous post by Georgess, then I would say I agree.
-unworthy
I think it is shameful that anyone should judge someone as unfitting to the priesthood or as “gay” because of their physical actions. Any priest or nun could “draw away” someone from something.
It is the biggest judgment to think that someone is “gay” or will care only about certain matters because they act a certain way. It just shows how much the media has polluted people’s thinking.
In any case, if by “effeminate” one is referring to the previous post by Georgess, then I would say I agree.
-unworthy
R
Ryan_Smith
Guest
Your post shows much of the so called media pollution that we must immediately accept everyone’s strange behavior. A feminine acting male is not normal. A masculine acting women is not normal. If you are indeed manly acting most will initially judge you by that and probably in a negative way. It is not a matter of right or wrong. It is just how we work. How else can we judge another person’s charactor then by how they act? This can be overcome by coming to know their true charactor but snap judgements are a matter of human nature and survival. Have you ever locked your car doors when someone who you percieve as being disreputable is walking by? Did you feel bad later? Did it really change your reaction the next time? It all boils down to the same thing.
A priest, regardless of how they act, must be respected above other people and shown the dignity that they richly deserve. This does not mean that a parishioner has to feel comfortable in private with them, invite them in to their home for dinner or anything else.
U
unworthy
Guest
Absolutely. I agree with that. Like you said, a Priest is to be respected but that if one does not feel comfortable around him, one is not obliged to be all chummy. On that regard, I agree.
You see, my problem is in the judgments that come about because of something that is perhaps abnormal, but is uncontrollable. How can someone with effeminate or masculine qualities be blamed for his or her tendencies?
The best thing rather than trying to avoid such a person or making judgments about them is to BEFRIEND them. Not to make them feel as though they are unworthy members of society. A priest is a person too.
As I’ve said, I have very tomboy-like qualities but it is through those people who have befriended me, women and men that I’ve realized the beauty of my feminity even with my tendencies. That my tendencies, my deep voice for instance is something I cannot change! How can you blame me for that. I don’t want to pretend to be someone I’m not. I just wish people would see the amount of suffering people who are labelled “effeminate” or “masculine” go through. If one did, he or she would atleast have the compassion to release them from their burden by not judging them and loving them.
-unworthy
F
fix
Guest
R
Ryan_Smith
Guest
It is not a matter of blaming the person for who they are, you or anyone else. We are all unique in our own ways and that is one of the true beauties of the human experience upon this earth. Any behavioral abnormality is a hurdle that must be overcome though before the person underneath can be seen. That calls for compassion and self understanding from the person with the percieved abnormality as well.
I am sorry to hear of whatever suffering you have gone through as a result of this side of human nature. I would sincerely hope that if I knew you that I would be able to see past the thin exterior quickly and get to what really matters. I am happy that you have found a positive core of people who did just that.
When speaking in generalities it is easy to be cold about what an issue is at its heart but when individual feelings become involved it is much more complicated.
- Status