Effeminate Priests

[dapper]

This thread subject has come up several times and I am trying to grasp the reasons for it.

Why do “effeminate preists” turn people off? After reading posts on several threads, I am coming to two possible conclusions:

(1) It seems that effeminacy, to some who have posted, gives an inside view of what a man’s sexual preference is…that they might be gay. If that’s the turn off, quite frankly, I would have to say that problem is not with the priest. As they are called to a life of celibacy, why should it EVEN MATTER! Should one be looking at their priests as a possible score? For women, is the turn off that their fantacies will never become realities? Some women (and I think some men) have said that they find their priests sexy/hot and with that they had they met them before they became priests, blah blah blsh etc. C’mon. I mean, we all have wandering eyes but should we be assessing priests this way?. I think it gives some insight to how the quality of a priest is being judged. For men, are you really that insecure with your own sexuality that being around a man that might be gay (even though they are not to act on it and even may not be gay) bother you?

(2) So let’s say that a priest is effeminate in his actions. Why would you judge a priest on that? Why aren’t you looking at this person as a priest and assessing more valid traits like his dedication to the parish, his obedience to the pope, what he does for the church etc? It’s such a terrible reason to write someone off for, especially someone who is charged to help you with your spiritual well being, isn’t it?

Did Jesus, when he was picking the apostles, look to see if Peter had a lisp, or displayed so called effeminate actions? Probably not. I’m sure he picked these guys based on more meaningful charatcers. Should we not do the same?

The whole question of effeminacy being the reason for the decline in vocations and the dwindling numbers of men going to church is a pretty weak arguement. We need to stop judging a person so much on these irrelevant characteristics.

Palmas put it well when he said “But I pray that their example of devotion to God and service to man in spite of their human failings as well as their strengths served as an example to others as well as to me.”

Let’s say that your priest is effiminate.Does this mean that the priest is unfit to serve the church, hear your confessions, celibrate mass? Does effeminacy mean that a priest is not courageous, faithful and charitble.

In conlcusion, if one sees effeminacy as a human failing, fine. But when looking at the role of a priest, should how they talk, walk etc even come into play? It’s so meaningless. To do so is disrespectful and unfair.

So, are effiminate priests the cause of the vocations shortage? I don’t think so. There does seem to be a peculiar discomfort with people who have a problem with effeminate priests though.

In the end, a priest is not there to talk sports with you, swear, make you feel sexy, or bolster your male or female sexuality. If that’s what you’re looking for, go hang out with your friends.

 

[setter]

This thread subject has come up several times and I am trying to grasp the reasons for it.

Why do “effeminate preists” turn people off? After reading posts on several threads, I am coming to two possible conclusions:

 

[setter]

Originally Posted by dapper
So, are effiminate priests the cause of the vocations shortage? I don’t think so. There does seem to be a peculiar discomfort with people who have a problem with effeminate priests though.

It it not about “discomfort” or being PC; it is about positive, relevent, attractive role models to draw like minded and qualified candidates to serve the flock in God’s vocational call.

In the end, a priest is not there to talk sports with you, swear, make you feel sexy, or bolster your male or female sexuality. If that’s what you’re looking for, go hang out with your friends.

In the end, what is lacking in the promotion of priestly vocations is masculine, manly men in the priesthood as positive role models for a life of fulfilling service to the Church.

 

[Polaris]

Since no one defines what a “manly” man is here I thought I would try according to my reference point

Brave
Caring
Loving
Kind
Protective
Steadfast
Enduring
and
Dedicated

An effeminate man can be all these things.

What I find odd is that a manly man according to other peoples definitions are affraid of the effeminate man and refuse to listen to a call from God . So the manly man does not want to listen to God because of another human being? I think will take the effeminate priest who will listen to a call from God and follows anyday over one that runs away due to a “hardship”.

 

[Franciscan]

Below is an excerpt from an interview with Fr. Stephen J. Rossetti, author of the book , The Joy of Priesthood, the full interview can be found at www.godspy.com…

Rossetti does a better job making the point I tried to make at the beggining of this thread:thumbsup:

If priests aren’t modeling an integrated masculinity to the Church or society, don’t you end up with a distorted masculinity, men who are aggressive and selfish, rather than men with a strong sense of service and sacrifice?

Yes, sure. The priesthood and society need men who model an integrated, balanced masculinity. Unfortunately, we see cases to the contrary and society is harmed by it.
In my book, there’s a chapter titled, The Priest as a Male: In an Era of the Ascending Feminine, where I talk about how there is an underlying, subtle, and sometimes not-so-subtle negativism toward maleness today, and that it is likely a backlash from centuries of male dominance and discrimination toward women. Today’s men are suffering from the sins of their fathers.

Within this cultural bias against masculinity and maleness, the priest as a man needs to be courageous enough to welcome his masculinity, embrace it, and express it in a balanced way. Ironically, the priest who’s not able to do this is prone to lapsing into one of two destructive extremes. He may either repress his masculinity and become “wishy-washy” and indecisive, feeling guilty and apologizing for his maleness, or he may fall into the other extreme, becoming aggressive, power-hungry and domineering.
Becoming a mature male means being comfortable with one’s masculinity, not needing to hide it or exaggerate it. We ought not to apologize for being a man. At the same time, we should not use our masculinity as a weapon. But we need to remember, if you have 150 priests in a diocese, you’re going to have guys all over the lot. The strength of the priesthood is in the communion, of all being together…

In your book you also talk about how the decline of masculinity has hurt the Church’s ministry and theology.

Yes, in modern times we’ve emphasized such good theological values as God’s forgiveness and mercy as well as God’s love and closeness to humanity. We’ve also emphasized that human beings are good and made in God’s image. These flow naturally from a feminine theological approach.

These are all true and an important antidote to the earlier masculine era in which sinfulness and the reality of God’s judgment and hell were preached with gusto; many older parishioners will relate how they feel scarred by such negative images of self and such harsh, judging images of God.
But by moving away from any masculine values and almost totally embracing the feminine, I believe there’s been a tendency to downplay important theological truths that are necessary for a balanced preaching of the Gospel of Jesus.
As celibate priests, our lives are meant to be a complete and total giving to the Kingdom of God.
This explains why the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s declaration of 2000, entitled Dominus Jesus, received so much negative press. While it could be argued that the document needed to be more sensitively worded—more couched in “femininity”—its masculine approach to the faith offered an important antidote to modern excesses.
While we wouldn’t want to return to the days of a masculine-only perspective which lead some into guilt-ridden scrupulosity, we would do well to listen to this resurgence of the masculine and reintegrate it, in a balanced way, into today’s church.

 

[setter]

Since no one defines what a “manly” man is here I thought I would try according to my reference point

Brave
Caring
Loving
Kind
Protective
Steadfast
Enduring
and
Dedicated

 

[setter]

Below is an excerpt from an interview with Fr. Stephen J. Rossetti, author of the book , The Joy of Priesthood, the full interview can be found at www.godspy.com…

Rossetti does a better job making the point I tried to make at the beggining of this thread:thumbsup:

Yes, sure. The priesthood and society need men who model an integrated, balanced masculinity. Unfortunately, we see cases to the contrary and society is harmed by it.

Within this cultural bias against masculinity and maleness, the priest as a man needs to be courageous enough to welcome his masculinity, embrace it, and express it in a balanced way. Ironically, the priest who’s not able to do this is prone to lapsing into one of two destructive extremes. He may either repress his masculinity and become “wishy-washy” and indecisive, feeling guilty and apologizing for his maleness, or he may fall into the other extreme, becoming aggressive, power-hungry and domineering.

Exactly. Besides the cultural bias, men who are afflicted with the psychosexual identity disorder of SSA, are consitutionally unable to truly “model an integrated, balanced masculinity” from the inside out. Period.

 

[Polaris]

Setter please tell me what you think Masculine is?

And All effeminate men have an underlying SSA problem? , While manly men do not. I think you bought into stereotye too. Serously Gay men come in a spectrum as wide as the straight men. Heck I know one who would make you drop your purse.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Unofortunately today masculinity is associated most with a strong sex drive. Your promiscuity determines how much of a man you are.

The US diocese’s are undergoing a $2+ BILLION lesson in correcting the mistaken notion that homosexual (male) sexual desires (on the average) are the same or less than heterosexuals. Since 1947 and Kinseys disproportionate studies of gay men, we have a lot of proof that just isn’t so.

 

[setter]

Setter please tell me what you think Masculine is?

Unfortunately, the impact pf our ungrounded [in Judeo-Christian values] and confused society is questions such as yours wondering how to ennumerate desired/requisite qualitities of a masculine man. Masculinity should be a self-evident, innate quality possed by a well-balanced man who is grounded in Christian virtue [for our Catholic audience].

masculine, defn;  –adjective 1. pertaining to or characteristic of a man or men: masculine attire. 2. having qualities traditionally ascribed to men, as strength and boldness. dictionary.reference.com/browse/masculinity

And All effeminate men have an underlying SSA problem? , While manly men do not. I think you bought into stereotye too.

No one can assume this, there are always exceptions. Whatever the underlying etiology for obvious (and undesireable) over effeminate qualities in a man, they reflect a lack of proper balance.

Serously Gay men come in a spectrum as wide as the straight men. Heck I know one who would make you drop your purse.

During the application screening process, a candidate for seminary needs to disclosed when asked regarding his proclivity, expereince of, and predominance for SSA. If a predominant SSA is present, that individual is not currently a viable candidate for seminary formation.

 

[christianley]

There’s an article in the website, www.newoxfordreview.org about effemitate priests.
I think it is correct in pointing out that effeminate priests drive away men both from Mass and the priesthood.
We must support manly priests who by their vow of celibacy they are living up to the very essence of priesthood-Sacrifice!
I don’t thing celibacy is as big a sacrifice for effeminate or homosexual priests.
I was pleased to notice that the Usccb’s vocational video Fisher’s of Men which highlights the priesthood as something good only has maculine type priests.
We need to get away from telling effeminate boys that maybe they are called to the priesthood just because they are that way.
Instaed we should point out that the priesthood is about offering sacrifice- one of those is the renunciation of marriage/women. Its only a sacrifice if its offering up something precious to you.

I’m afraid that sometimes people confuse effeminate and gentle. Our priests don’t look or act like guys that are going to take you out in a football game, but they definitely aren’t gay either. We need to be careful in our judgements.

 

[Polaris]

I have a problem with this Masculinity idea on so many levels. The definition or features Masculinity has changed a lot over the years. For instance 70 years ago most cheerleaders were male. This was at one time considered very Masculine now it is not. This example can be continued with bank tellers, tailors, desighners, artists, and even actors.
Even today many consider cooking a feminine quality, even when a majority of all Professional Chefs are male. The lines are not as clear as you think they are.
Also you have to take another quality ino the mix when understanding masculinity. It is only self evident for one small culture. What a frenchman considers masculine and what you consider masculine are two different things. Who is right? This is not moral relativism but a cultural lense we use to see the world, and maleness is not a moral for that matter. (For instance romance by the male is frowned upon in parts of the US and considered a feminine quality, while in the french culture it is very masculine for a male to be romantic at all times.)

There also some countries in the east that frown upon large muscular males, they are consider it not a masculine trait but a barbaric one. Should a barbarian be a priest in those cultures. Thats why to me it is not self evident. A priest who speaks the truth with a lisp will reach me just as well as a priest that grunts it.

 

[dapper]

**In the end, what is lacking in the promotion of priestly vocations is masculine, ma"nly men in the priesthood as positive role models for a life of fulfilling service to the Church." **

Setter, your comments in that you need more “manly men” as priests is perplexing. Talk about psycho-sexual disorder and or need… It sounds like you are looking for your priest to fill the gap of your own lacking masculinity. It sounds like you NEED a manly man priest in your life. It really does.

That you would look at any grade of effeminacy as a negative so much so that one having these characteristics could not fulfill their duty as a priest? That is so incredibly judgmental and not very Jesus-like…Period.

 

[dapper]

**“In the end, what is lacking in the promotion of priestly vocations is masculine, manly men in the priesthood as positive role models for a life of fulfilling service to the Church.” **

Setter, your comments in that you need more “manly men” as priests is perplexing. Talk about psycho-sexual disorder and or need… It sounds like you are looking for your priest to fill the gap of your own lacking masculinity. It sounds like you NEED a manly man priest in your life. It really does.

That you would look at any grade of effeminacy as a negative so much so that one having these characteristics could not fulfill their duty as a priest? That is so incredibly judgmental and not very Jesus-like…Period. That you would say that an effeminate priest could not fulfill in persona Christi. Do you think the pope would agree with you on that? Or when you say “Period” are you speaking for him?

What does the church stand to gain by weeding out it’s effeminate, and thus “disordered” priests and or canidates? I’m not talking about priests that are homosexual, I am talking about priests, by your twisted definition, fitting the bill as effeminate. What will your manly priest do better besides make you feel more in touch with your own masculinity?

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Manhood in general is under attack it affects every facet of our society. Just look at our sitcoms and commericals (bear with me here). What is the most common theme? Good looking smart wife, married to a worthless, dumb, inconsiderate, alcoholic, fat oaf of a husband. Every commerical has a man too dumb to change a tire and some powerful woman comes to his rescue. Or the wife “wears the pants” and the man is protrayed as nothing more than an additional child. I may seem a bit nuts, I probably am, but I’m not imagining this I see it everyday. The priesthood and feminization of the Church is just one facet of our Church being influenced by our society in its attack on masculinity.

Saint_Michael, I completely agree with you. Lately I’ve been bothered by the Friendly’s restaurant commercials. They’re always about a stupid dad who can’t cook better burgers than Friendly’s (seriously???) and who can’t catch a fly ball at a baseball game (the mom does). In both commercials the children belittle and laugh at their father. It’s sickening!

 

[setter]

I have a problem with this Masculinity idea on so many levels. The definition or features Masculinity has changed a lot over the years.

There also some countries in the east that frown upon large muscular males, they are consider it not a masculine trait but a barbaric one. Should a barbarian be a priest in those cultures. Thats why to me it is not self evident.

I am talking about the American culture. Though IMO masculinity is a univeral innate quality with obvious counter qualities. Here is an interesting article regarding why the loss of masculinity in our Western culture:

The making of a man
By Lianne Laurence
Issue: February, 2006

Western society is suffering a crisis of masculinity, or lack thereof, and responding to this crisis is Dr. Philip Mango, Catholic psychotherapist and founding member of the New-York-based St. Michael’s Institute of the Psychological Sciences. According to Dr. Mango, the present catastrophe has “multiple complex causes;”

Lianne Laurence spoke with Dr. Mango by telephone. Interested readers can visit his website at www.saintmichael.net.

catholicinsight.com/online/social/article_646.shtml

A priest who speaks the truth with a lisp will reach me just as well as a priest that grunts it.

To each his own, but I believe that I am speaking for the masses of faithful Catholics in in that a lispy speaking, overly effeminate quality priest is a distraction at best, and is more likely to create a sense of disconnect with parishoners.

 

[Franciscan]

**“In the end, what is lacking in the promotion of priestly vocations is masculine, manly men in the priesthood as positive role models for a life of fulfilling service to the Church.” **

Setter, your comments in that you need more “manly men” as priests is perplexing. Talk about psycho-sexual disorder and or need… It sounds like you are looking for your priest to fill the gap of your own lacking masculinity. It sounds like you NEED a manly man priest in your life. It really does.

That you would look at any grade of effeminacy as a negative so much so that one having these characteristics could not fulfill their duty as a priest? That is so incredibly judgmental and not very Jesus-like…Period. That you would say that an effeminate priest could not fulfill in persona Christi. Do you think the pope would agree with you on that? Or when you say “Period” are you speaking for him?

What does the church stand to gain by weeding out it’s effeminate, and thus “disordered” priests and or canidates? I’m not talking about priests that are homosexual, I am talking about priests, by your twisted definition, fitting the bill as effeminate. What will your manly priest do better besides make you feel more in touch with your own masculinity?

Dapper why do all of your posts relate to homosexuality? It seems that its NOT Setter with a complex about his sexuality but you. It’s sad that when your argument runs out of steem that you result to a personal attack on Setter.

Setter is reflecting a normal healthy view of a problem that the Church currently has. The Church, under his (masculine) Holiness Benedict XVI, is now trying to restore the priesthood with balanced, normal men.

This is GOOD for the Church. Don’t get so “emotional and sensitive”. Slow down and read the interview that I posted from www.godspy.com . It is the words of a reasonable priest who knows the priesthood better than we do.

 

[dapper]

Dapper why do all of your posts relate to homosexuality? It seems that its NOT Setter with a complex about his sexuality but you. It’s sad that when your argument runs out of steem that you result to a personal attack on Setter.

Setter is reflecting a normal healthy view of a problem that the Church currently has. The Church, under his (masculine) Holiness Benedict XVI, is now trying to restore the priesthood with balanced, normal men.

This is GOOD for the Church. Don’t get so “emotional and sensitive”. Slow down and read the interview that I posted from www.godspy.com . It is the words of a reasonable priest who knows the priesthood better than we do.

Benedict, masculine! That’s laughable! With his Prada glasses and gold trimmed slippers. Oh, thanks for that.

As for me running out of steam…keep posting away. I’m not done yet.

 

[Franciscan]

I am talking about the American culture. Though IMO masculinity is a univeral innate quality with obvious counter qualities. Here is an interesting article regarding why the loss of masculinity in our Western culture:

catholicinsight.com/online/social/article_646.shtml

To each his own, but I believe that I am speaking for the masses of faithful Catholics in in that a lispy speaking, overly effeminate quality priest is a distraction at best, and is more likely to create a sense of disconnect with parishoners.

Setter good links thanks.

 

[setter]

**“In the end, what is lacking in the promotion of priestly vocations is masculine, manly men in the priesthood as positive role models for a life of fulfilling service to the Church.” **

Setter, your comments in that you need more “manly men” as priests is perplexing. Talk about psycho-sexual disorder and or need… It sounds like you are looking for your priest to fill the gap of your own lacking masculinity. It sounds like you NEED a manly man priest in your life. It really does.

I am sorry that you are perplexed by common sense experience of the masses of faithful Catholics who fill the pews each Sunday.

That you would look at any grade of effeminacy as a negative so much so that one having these characteristics could not fulfill their duty as a priest? That is so incredibly judgmental and not very Jesus-like…Period. That you would say that an effeminate priest could not fulfill in persona Christi. Do you think the pope would agree with you on that? Or when you say “Period” are you speaking for him?

This is what the Church has stated:

CONGREGATION FOR CATHOLIC EDUCATION

CONCERNING THE CRITERIA OF VOCATIONAL DISCERNMENT REGARDING PERSONS WITH HOMOSEXUAL TENDENCIES IN VIEW OF THEIR ADMISSION TO SEMINARIES AND HOLY ORDERS - November 04, 2005

In discernment of the suitability for Ordination, the spiritual director has an important task. Even though he is bound by secrecy, he represents the Church in the internal forum. In meetings with the candidate, the spiritual director must clearly recall the Church’s demands regarding priestly chastity and the specific affective maturity of the priest, as well as help him discern if he has the necessary qualities. He has the obligation to evaluate all the qualities of the personality and assure that the candidate does not have sexual disorders that are incompatible with priesthood. If a candidate is actively homosexual or shows deep-seated homosexual tendencies, his spiritual director, as well as his confessor, has the duty to dissuade him, in conscience, from proceeding towards Ordination.

catholicnewsagency.com/document.php?n=98

What does the church stand to gain by weeding out it’s effeminate, and thus “disordered” priests and or canidates? I’m not talking about priests that are homosexual, I am talking about priests, by your twisted definition, fitting the bill as effeminate. What will your manly priest do better besides make you feel more in touch with your own masculinity?

A stronger and more credible priesthood to lead the flock and more fully reflect the balanced love of God the Father.