Efficacy and effects of non-Catholic baptism questions for my dad

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Gorgias said:
So then, rather than looking at what a 1907 non-magisterial source says, let’s look at what current canon law says:

Now, we need to keep one thing in mind: strictly speaking, the canon is looking at Christian baptism in the Catholic Church (it doesn’t set up obligations to non-Catholic Christians, per se). But, even with this caveat, we see a minimal set of requirements: the person must intend to be baptized and have ‘sufficient’ instruction about the faith. (We might discuss what this means in the context of a non-Catholic but valid Christian baptism.)

As far as repentance, the canon is rather gentle in its requirements: the (adult) to be baptized is merely ‘urged to have sorrow’ for his personal sins.
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That is a good comment on the reception of baptism. The canon does not address the reception of sanctifying grace received only with proper disposition.

According to the traditional doctrine of the Catholic Church there are four requirements for the valid administration of the sacrament of Baptism: the matter, the form, the intention of the minister, and the right disposition of the recipient.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-ladaria_en.html

“Besides a wish to be baptized, in order to obtain the grace of the Sacrament, faith is also necessary: Our Lord has said: ‘he that believes and is baptized shall be saved.’ (Mark 16:16 )” - Catechism of the Council of Trent

Note also the the Catholic Encyclopedia cited has:
Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.
 
Vico said:
That is a good comment on the reception of baptism. The canon does not address the reception of sanctifying grace received only with proper disposition.

According to the traditional doctrine of the Catholic Church there are four requirements for the valid administration of the sacrament of Baptism: the matter, the form, the intention of the minister, and the right disposition of the recipient.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-ladaria_en.html

“Besides a wish to be baptized, in order to obtain the grace of the Sacrament, faith is also necessary: Our Lord has said: ‘he that believes and is baptized shall be saved.’ (Mark 16:16 )” - Catechism of the Council of Trent

Note also the the Catholic Encyclopedia cited has:
Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.
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So, if I understand all this correctly, it could it be said (or assumed) that in the case of a non-Catholic Christian baptism in which the baptismal candidate was not properly catechized or instructed in regards to sin, repentance, etc., that the baptism still succeeded in washing away Original Sin (brings them into the covenant) but that it may not necessarily remove their personal sin unless sufficient contrition is present? Therefore, they still receive the mark of baptism on their soul, but they don’t receive the fullness of sanctifying grace until contrition is present? Am I understanding correctly?
 
slh3016 said:
So, if I understand all this correctly, it could it be said (or assumed) that in the case of a non-Catholic Christian baptism in which the baptismal candidate was not properly catechized or instructed in regards to sin, repentance, etc., that the baptism still succeeded in washing away Original Sin (brings them into the covenant) but that it may not necessarily remove their personal sin unless sufficient contrition is present? Therefore, they still receive the mark of baptism on their soul, but they don’t receive the fullness of sanctifying grace until contrition is present? Am I understanding correctly?
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The situation is different for an infant and an adult. For an adult, baptism does not remove any sin or its punishments, or mark the character, until there is the proper disposition. The improper disposition is an obstacle (obex). See the Council of Trent,

Session VI,

CHAPTER VI.

The manner of Preparation.

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, * excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised, – and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; * and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; * and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: * lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God.

Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.

CHAPTER VII.

What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm
 
slh3016 said:
So, if I understand all this correctly, it could it be said (or assumed) that in the case of a non-Catholic Christian baptism in which the baptismal candidate was not properly catechized or instructed in regards to sin, repentance, etc., that the baptism still succeeded in washing away Original Sin (brings them into the covenant) but that it may not necessarily remove their personal sin unless sufficient contrition is present? Therefore, they still receive the mark of baptism on their soul, but they don’t receive the fullness of sanctifying grace until contrition is present? Am I understanding correctly?
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I have to say that I am very sorry for you that you have been put through such an ordeal in an effort to get a relatively simple answer to a relatively simple question.

The citation from canon law, for all your needs and purposes, addresses what is required. Valid matter. Valid form. The minimum necessary intention on the part of the minister. And the desire on the part of the one being baptised to be baptised, presuming they are above the age of reason.

The 1907 article cited was looking at truly extraordinary cases, from the perspective of theology and of theologians…in this case the classic textbook examples a professor would use with his theology students would have been an adolescent who is receiving baptism solely because his parents paid him to do so or solely as a means as a young man to marry his fiancee, with no motive of faith at all.

Reverting back to a statement from Trent is not necessary since the Church uses a formulation today that is clearer and more concise.

If your father receives the sacrament of baptism, even from a non-Catholic minister, and does so from a motive of faith, however inchoate, it will have its full effect.

With regard to the appropriate amount of instruction, the legislator left the language broad to accommodate a variety of circumstances and conditions relative to the candidate. If, for example, one comes upon someone who is dying who asks for baptism, the instruction would be none.

A child who is no longer an infant, and who can speak for herself, and who presents herself for baptism will also not have a nuanced understanding of the theology of this sacrament. Nor need she. Indeed, most people have only a fraction of the full understanding of this sacrament that theology provides. That does not impede God or His sacrament.
 
slh3016 said:
So, if I understand all this correctly, it could it be said (or assumed) that in the case of a non-Catholic Christian baptism in which the baptismal candidate was not properly catechized or instructed in regards to sin, repentance, etc., that the baptism still succeeded in washing away Original Sin (brings them into the covenant) but that it may not necessarily remove their personal sin unless sufficient contrition is present? Therefore, they still receive the mark of baptism on their soul, but they don’t receive the fullness of sanctifying grace until contrition is present? Am I understanding correctly?
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Just to be clear, my post with the text from Council of Trent was to answer your specific question: “Therefore, they still receive the mark of baptism on their soul, but they don’t receive the fullness of sanctifying grace until contrition is present?”

Which answer is no, it is not partial: the remission of original sin, actual sins, all punishment, and the mark of character, and sanctifying grace are received all together.
 
Vico said:
Just to be clear, my post with the text from Council of Trent was to answer your specific question: “Therefore, they still receive the mark of baptism on their soul, but they don’t receive the fullness of sanctifying grace until contrition is present?”

Which answer is no, it is not partial: the remission of original sin, actual sins, all punishment, and the mark of character, and sanctifying grace are received all together.
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Okay, but I’m still confused. IF a person receives baptism without proper contrition as an adult are their sins remitted or not? If not, then is their baptism invalid (lose efficacy)? Should they be baptized again if they later realize that they did not receive baptism in the proper state of contrition and repentance? This issue never seems to be addressed when one becomes Catholic from another Christian denomination.
 
slh3016 said:
Okay, but I’m still confused. IF a person receives baptism without proper contrition as an adult are their sins remitted or not? If not, then is their baptism invalid (lose efficacy)? Should they be baptized again if they later realize that they did not receive baptism in the proper state of contrition and repentance? This issue never seems to be addressed when one becomes Catholic from another Christian denomination.
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In sacramental theology, a sacrament is a sign which super-abundantly achieves that which it signifies. Baptism signifies being washed clean. Simply by requesting approaching this rite, there is the desire to be cleansed of sin.

There is a theological reason why, when the Roman Church receives into full communion with herself someone baptised in another Church or ecclesial community, she examines that proper sacramental matter was used and that proper sacramental form was used but does not investigate the dispositions the candidate had or did not have. They do not invalidate the sacrament. When the Church is examining a marriage between two non-Catholics, what they knew, thought and intended has a bearing. Baptism is different.

If your father asks for baptism in a church such as you described and the minister baptises him using water and the name of the Holy Trinity, your father will be baptised. Without qualification.
 
slh3016 said:
Okay, but I’m still confused. IF a person receives baptism without proper contrition as an adult are their sins remitted or not? If not, then is their baptism invalid (lose efficacy)? Should they be baptized again if they later realize that they did not receive baptism in the proper state of contrition and repentance? This issue never seems to be addressed when one becomes Catholic from another Christian denomination.
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This is my understanding of the matter. Supposing that the non-Catholic baptism uses valid Trinitarian formula, use of water, and intention of the minister to really baptize, then the one receiving really must want to, at least implicitly, do all things necessary for salvation, especially to **receive baptism/B . That would be an act of perfect charity or contrition for baptism. So, regarding the recipients disposition, unless it is a fraud, it is good.

It is a bad when the recipient has only the intention to appease a relative or gain some other material benefit or just for appearances sake (e.g., social status).**
 
Thank you, Father, I have to say that addresses most of my questions and concerns quite satisfactorily.
 
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