Eggs, Milk, Scrupulosity

[Xantippe]

This seems to be an apt characterization of the kind of person you (and HD) seem to be talking about:

youtu.be/-NP-RsRGzVo?t=35

When actually the life of a scroop is much closer to this:

youtu.be/9dgbbtUbgcM?t=26

I don’t think Lady MacBeth belongs in this discussion–she did something REALLY bad and her handwashing is a manifestation of guilt over actual misdeeds.

I know somebody pretty well who (while probably not technically scrupulous) has a tendency to geek out over minor moral i dotting and t crossing while at the same time dropping the ball in a variety of other areas. He’s a good guy, but that happens to be his particular moral bent. It’s the sort of thing that Jesus described the Pharisees as doing. See Matthew 23:23-24:

“23“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.”

That’s as good a portrait of the moral errors of some of the scrupulous as you will ever see–making very sure to tithe even the most piddling of their crops (the herbs), while forgetting big picture morals. That’s the tunnel vision I was talking about.

Likewise, I have another relative who isn’t necessarily scrupulous, but the most striking feature of his personality is fault-finding. Nobody and nothing is ever good enough for him. He suffers a lot (because he is also dissatisfied with himself), but everybody else around him suffers, too (although no doubt to a lesser extent). I suspect the same may be true of many scrupulous people–that they are (without noticing it), causing a great deal of pain to their loved ones.

 

[e_c]

I don’t think Lady MacBeth belongs in this discussion–she did something REALLY bad and her handwashing is a manifestation of guilt over actual misdeeds.

I know somebody pretty well who (while probably not technically scrupulous) has a tendency to geek out over minor moral i dotting and t crossing while at the same time dropping the ball in a variety of other areas. He’s a good guy, but that happens to be his particular moral bent. It’s the sort of thing that Jesus described the Pharisees as doing. See Matthew 23:23-24:

“23“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.”

That’s as good a portrait of the moral errors of some of the scrupulous as you will ever see–making very sure to tithe even the most piddling of their crops (the herbs), while forgetting big picture morals. That’s the tunnel vision I was talking about.

Likewise, I have another relative who isn’t necessarily scrupulous, but the most striking feature of his personality is fault-finding. Nobody and nothing is ever good enough for him. He suffers a lot (because he is also dissatisfied with himself), but everybody else around him suffers, too (although no doubt to a lesser extent). I suspect the same may be true of many scrupulous people–that they are (without noticing it), causing a great deal of pain to their loved ones.

No it is not a perfect analogy, but the scrupulous obsessively wash out spots that were either never there to begin with, are very small and easy to remove, or are long gone. Same result… crushing guilt and anxiety, and all in vain, manifesting in characteristic obsessive behavior with guilt and purity.

Tunnel vision is a strange thing, isn’t it. Consider that maybe there is more than one kind of person who suffers the one kind of affliction… You said “many” but don’t seem to see the possibility that the great majority of cases are not like what you describe.

Earlier I made the claim that general advice can be helpful, and I stand by that because there are particular remedies that can help this affliction no matter what else one may be dealing with. On the other hand, general categorization - “ALL scrupulous people ALSO are xyz” - is completely unhelpful since it is patently false. Are there some people who only see fault in everyone, including themselves? Yes. Are there some people who see only fault in themselves and never in others? Yes. And yet neither actually necessarily implies scrupulosity, nor does scrupulosity imply either.

There are all these levels of problematic appetites in a person which can manifest in an over-sensitive conscience… At first it is simply innocent unrealistic expectations of oneself, then it is a secret pride, then it is an open pride. It could also be a case of a true-blue spiritual affliction (cf. John on the “spiritus vertiginis”). Only those with an open pride are on the fast track to Hell, as you are describing. (And yet those the Lord is speaking to have absolutely no experience of guilt but ought to. So it is here instead a case of seeing fault only in others, which is the worst… but it is not scrupulosity at all, simply a misunderstanding of the spirit of the law and the true will of God.) The others are usually well-intentioned people who are often only confused about their own moral lives while seeing others’ with total clarity or even with a misplaced admiration. Like the OP. Though sometimes they are confused about others’ lives as well, or they are not so well-intentioned. The spiritual life is complicated… We should not oversimplify it.

Again, ask St. Francis about all this. He was a scroop - and a pretty bad one from what it seems. Certainly, it is not something to imitate, it is rather something to help with perspective on the issue.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Well yes and no. It is becoming painfully obvious the more I see scrupulocity that it is not a spiritual problem but a mental one. I think it is common to be a manifestation of ocd. They seem to have a lot in common. And the abandonment of logic in the dicernment process indicates to me a mental abnormality. So while, yes, one should have a regular confessor who is adept at handeling this problem, one should also seek professionAl help from the medical industry. And CAF is not the place for either.

Also, I see it is very common for the scrupulous sufferer to really have an immense feeling of pride. Rarely do they view those around them charitably. So instead of “condemning” others they condemn themselves for lesser offenses. In the OP we are talking about eating eggs and eternal damnation. Now how does that play out when they view others living normal lives…?

I agree with you that it is most frequently in more severe cases a form of OCD or other Anxiety Disorders.

Please never say we have a “immense feeling of pride” implying we can control this or we have somehow sinned. That is certainly not the case. In fact, I’m much more likely to let others off the hook for more serious issues and nitpick the little issues in my own life. OCD can be egotistical, but it’s not due to us sinning. OCD is a serious illness that doesn’t yet have a cure. It can be disabling and is a heavy cross for those of us carrying it. Please don’t ever imply that these behaviors are due to this sin of pride or any other sin.

 

[porthos11]

And I would advise all posters that when it comes to the scrupulous, do not try to analyze them/us or the scrupulous in general, speculate that they may or may not have, etc. That is of no help. Don’t speculate as to whether they have OCD, anxiety or are tormented by demons, pride, tunnel vision, whatever. So stop it.

There is only one thing any of us on this board should say to ANY scrupulous poster, and no more:

Find a trusted confessor and obey him.

That is all. Nothing we can do or say can help the scrupulous. Nothing, zip, nada. You may think you have something good to say to make them feel better, but you don’t. Seriously. CAF is not a good place for them. They will not find relief here, and again, that’s despite what any of us my think.

So again, if the scrupulous comes by asking “Is (something-most-likely-not-a-sin-at-all) a sin?”, there is only one answer:

Find a trusted confessor and obey him.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

And I would advise all posters that when it comes to the scrupulous, do not try to analyze them/us or the scrupulous in general, speculate that they may or may not have, etc. That is of no help. Don’t speculate as to whether they have OCD, anxiety or are tormented by demons, pride, tunnel vision, whatever. So stop it.

There is only one thing any of us on this board should say to ANY scrupulous poster, and no more:

Find a trusted confessor and obey him.

That is all. Nothing we can do or say can help the scrupulous. Nothing, zip, nada. You may think you have something good to say to make them feel better, but you don’t. Seriously. CAF is not a good place for them. They will not find relief here, and again, that’s despite what any of us my think.

So again, if the scrupulous comes by asking “Is (something-most-likely-not-a-sin-at-all) a sin?”, there is only one answer:

Find a trusted confessor and obey him.

Actually. It probably needs to be ANY confessor at this point. And again, the op mentioned mental illness, and medication. They need to seek professional medical help.

CAF is NOT equipped to deal with these posts.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Actually. It probably needs to be ANY confessor at this point. And again, the op mentioned mental illness, and medication. They need to seek professional medical help.

CAF is NOT equipped to deal with these posts.

Yes, they do need redirection and we can’t give in to answering questions from a scrupulous poster who has not worked with a priest and/or therapist yet.

However, they also need basic acceptance as a valuable member of the Church (and these forums) and reassurance of God’s love for them. These we CAN do and SHOULD do!

 

[e_c]

And I would advise all posters that when it comes to the scrupulous, do not try to analyze them/us or the scrupulous in general, speculate that they may or may not have, etc. That is of no help. Don’t speculate as to whether they have OCD, anxiety or are tormented by demons, pride, tunnel vision, whatever. So stop it.

There is only one thing any of us on this board should say to ANY scrupulous poster, and no more:

Find a trusted confessor and obey him.

That is all. Nothing we can do or say can help the scrupulous. Nothing, zip, nada. You may think you have something good to say to make them feel better, but you don’t. Seriously. CAF is not a good place for them. They will not find relief here, and again, that’s despite what any of us my think.

So again, if the scrupulous comes by asking “Is (something-most-likely-not-a-sin-at-all) a sin?”, there is only one answer:

Find a trusted confessor and obey him.

This sounds like a gnostic moral theology. Yes, the grace of state is real and good and can be relied upon within reason. But yes, general principles are real and good too, and they can be relied upon within reason. Telling a person that there is nothing that can help him except a confessor could actually make things worse… did you ever consider that? By insisting on this anti-rational and single-minded approach which INSISTS that the ONLY thing that can be done is to tell someone to go to confession, you may be doing MUCH more harm than good. Think about it. Trust that these folks have a brain - usually they can even point out that they are being irrational, and you can coax out the right view which they already possess in the intellect but fail to extend all the way through the soul.

We are not an either/or people. We are a both/and people.

 

[porthos11]

This sounds like a gnostic moral theology. Yes, the grace of state is real and good and can be relied upon within reason. But yes, general principles are real and good too, and they can be relied upon within reason. Telling a person that there is nothing that can help him except a confessor could actually make things worse… did you ever consider that? By insisting on this anti-rational and single-minded approach which INSISTS that the ONLY thing that can be done is to tell someone to go to confession, you may be doing MUCH more harm than good. Think about it. Trust that these folks have a brain - usually they can even point out that they are being irrational, and you can coax out the right view which they already possess in the intellect but fail to extend all the way through the soul.

We are not an either/or people. We are a both/and people.

These are the scrupulous. You probably don’t understand the scrupulous. They KNOW moral principles. They already KNOW what is right and wrong. It is their consciences that are defective, not their knowledge.

No, we cannot make things worse by directing them solely to a confessor. It is the ONLY thing they should do. Their consciences have gone haywire and these forums have a whole lot of varying opinions, such as the back-and-forth on this thread alone. We are strangers on the Internet, and the scrupulous have absolutely no reason to trust us. They will not believe us.

It’s not about the content of what we say, which can be sound or problematic in themselves, but more because we are nobodies to these people. We are faceless, nameless strangers and they cannot trust us. It is the conflicting opinions here are the ones that will cause them harm. Not directing them to ONE, TRUSTED confessor whom they must OBEY. THAT is the only path to healing. If anything will make things worse for them, WE will. That is why, only one answer is correct for the scrupulous is:

Find a trusted confessor and obey him.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

These are the scrupulous. You probably don’t understand the scrupulous. They KNOW moral principles. They already KNOW what is right and wrong. It is their consciences that are defective, not their knowledge.

No, we cannot make things worse by directing them solely to a confessor. It is the ONLY thing they should do. Their consciences have gone haywire and these forums have a whole lot of varying opinions, such as the back-and-forth on this thread alone. We are strangers on the Internet, and the scrupulous have absolutely no reason to trust us. They will not believe us.

It’s not about the content of what we say, which can be sound or problematic in themselves, but more because we are nobodies to these people. We are faceless, nameless strangers and they cannot trust us. It is the conflicting opinions here are the ones that will cause them harm. Not directing them to ONE, TRUSTED confessor whom they must OBEY. THAT is the only path to healing. If anything will make things worse for them, WE will. That is why, only one answer is correct for the scrupulous is:

Find a trusted confessor and obey him.

Using the example of the op. And the simplicity of the church’s teaching on mortal sin and confession…
1 grave matter
2. Full knowlege
2. Full will

It is obvious that the problem is not as easily categorized as you make it out to be. The first condition . Grave matter is so far removed from an extra cup of milk and some eggs that there is a real logical disconnect.

The op is under psychiatric care. So, no, the only answer is not find a trusted priest, one may sure do that and should. But the medical care needs to be addressed. Again, this is not a spiritual problem. There is a disconnect between the thought and reality and logic.

I wish there were rules for the scrupulous posts in these forum. Because honestly, it’s a hell and a prison that one makes in ones mind.

As with any illness we don’t pray it away without trained medical professionals helping with the cure.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I agree with you that it is most frequently in more severe cases a form of OCD or other Anxiety Disorders.

Please never say we have a “immense feeling of pride” implying we can control this or we have somehow sinned. That is certainly not the case. In fact, I’m much more likely to let others off the hook for more serious issues and nitpick the little issues in my own life. OCD can be egotistical, but it’s not due to us sinning. OCD is a serious illness that doesn’t yet have a cure. It can be disabling and is a heavy cross for those of us carrying it. Please don’t ever imply that these behaviors are due to this sin of pride or any other sin.

But the can be and in my experience with virtual posters of scupulocity they almost always are.

I think many times it is the need for the person to be told they are good. We all struggle with sin, so when someone comes on and asks if they should not recieve the Eucharist because on a crisp fall day they took an extra breath the logic has to be one of two things. 1. The need to be praised and assured of their goodness. " I’m so bad…" " no you really have no sin, you are good"
Or
2 the need to excuse assumed shortcomings by subtly comparing it to others. Amoung threads of adultery, masturbation, birth control, doubt, theft, etc comes one about taking a leaf or in this case, drinking milk.

While certainly this is not the case for every scrupulous person, the public and anonymous nature of online media draws the two types of scupulocity out. Because each one I mentioned gets the itch scratched when posting publicly. This fact probably accounts for the two types of posts we see so often on CAF.

Note:

I want to be crystal clear that I am in no way accusing anyone of anything, only discussing in general terms the problem with scrupulous posts on CAF.

My heart pities and breaks for those who suffer from this issue.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

you said: “Rarely do they view those around them charitably. So instead of “condemning” others they condemn themselves for lesser offenses.” I think you may have told here more about yourself than about us the scrupulous.

This last part is telling and backs up my point.

Let me clarify.

The reason the scrupulous tend not to be the most charitable or understanding and compassionate of those around them is because they can’t. Because for whatever reason they have a logical disconnect for what constitutes grave sin for themselves they cannot accurately asses others. So either they use thier scrupulocity to somehow brag about thier holiness or they cannot even fathom souls outside of thier own moral sphere.

When pushed you tried to turn it around on others which shows that you do view others outside of yourself…

I hesitated responding and I hope I do not regret it.

All of us on this thread care about you and we don’t even know you. So please, seek advice and guidance from professionals in and out of the church.

I will leave you with two final thoughts.

1. If you took a poll on CAF (that’s basically what this thread is) and 200 people said you didn’t sin, but 5 said you did. Would you or would you not have sinned?
   We are no replacement for your conscience.
2. Asking strangers on the Internet to asses the state of your soul is asking us to judge you. And we are not to do that.

Good luck to you!

 

[e_c]

These are the scrupulous. You probably don’t understand the scrupulous. They KNOW moral principles. They already KNOW what is right and wrong. It is their consciences that are defective, not their knowledge.

No, we cannot make things worse by directing them solely to a confessor. It is the ONLY thing they should do. Their consciences have gone haywire and these forums have a whole lot of varying opinions, such as the back-and-forth on this thread alone. We are strangers on the Internet, and the scrupulous have absolutely no reason to trust us. They will not believe us.

It’s not about the content of what we say, which can be sound or problematic in themselves, but more because we are nobodies to these people. We are faceless, nameless strangers and they cannot trust us. It is the conflicting opinions here are the ones that will cause them harm. Not directing them to ONE, TRUSTED confessor whom they must OBEY. THAT is the only path to healing. If anything will make things worse for them, WE will. That is why, only one answer is correct for the scrupulous is:

Find a trusted confessor and obey him.

OK. First of all, I do “understand the scrupulous” thank you very much - first hand at that - and I said the exact same things you are saying to me.

To your second point, I’ve already made my argument. But here it is again: this could lead to a lot of despair in someone who is already on the brink of losing control. “The only thing I can do is go to confession! There is no hope unless I am there! Every time I think I sin I need to run to Father!” It is you who “don’t understand the scrupulous” if you think that reason is universally unhelpful. No, CAF is not the ideal venue, but it can be better than nothing. But certainly there is more one can (and sometimes should) say than “go see Father.”

Finally, you clearly haven’t read the thread if you think there has been a divergence of opinion on it as regarding the OP’s question. She got the same answer over and over. If you mean back and forth over what ought to be done practically, consider the possibility the OP is already making frequent confession… as most scroops do.

I invite you to be more “scrupulous” with your reading and reflection.

 

[e_c]

But the can be and in my experience with virtual posters of scupulocity they almost always are.

I think many times it is the need for the person to be told they are good. We all struggle with sin, so when someone comes on and asks if they should not recieve the Eucharist because on a crisp fall day they took an extra breath the logic has to be one of two things. 1. The need to be praised and assured of their goodness. " I’m so bad…" " no you really have no sin, you are good"
Or
2 the need to excuse assumed shortcomings by subtly comparing it to others. Amoung threads of adultery, masturbation, birth control, doubt, theft, etc comes one about taking a leaf or in this case, drinking milk.

While certainly this is not the case for every scrupulous person, the public and anonymous nature of online media draws the two types of scupulocity out. Because each one I mentioned gets the itch scratched when posting publicly. This fact probably accounts for the two types of posts we see so often on CAF.

Note:

I want to be crystal clear that I am in no way accusing anyone of anything, only discussing in general terms the problem with scrupulous posts on CAF.

My heart pities and breaks for those who suffer from this issue.

Some posters are humble bragging. Others have mental illness. Still others just sincerely don’t know something about the principles of the moral life. And some may even have a genuine spiritual affliction which is none of these things. There is also the possibility of a mix of any and even all of these conditions.

Usually, in assessing a soul, the clearer you are the more likely it is that you are wrong.

You criticized scrupulous persons as being “judgmental” toward others. The OP said that is usually the opposite of her (his?) own experience and that it shows more about you than about the scrupulous. Now you are playing “gotcha.” Where will it end, I wonder?

 

[Xantippe]

OK. First of all, I do “understand the scrupulous” thank you very much - first hand at that - and I said the exact same things you are saying to me.

To your second point, I’ve already made my argument. But here it is again: this could lead to a lot of despair in someone who is already on the brink of losing control. “The only thing I can do is go to confession! There is no hope unless I am there! Every time I think I sin I need to run to Father!” It is you who “don’t understand the scrupulous” if you think that reason is universally unhelpful. No, CAF is not the ideal venue, but it can be better than nothing. But certainly there is more one can (and sometimes should) say than “go see Father.”

**Finally, you clearly haven’t read the thread if you think there has been a divergence of opinion on it as regarding the OP’s question. She got the same answer over and over. If you mean back and forth over what ought to be done practically, **consider the possibility the OP is already making frequent confession… as most scroops do.

I invite you to be more “scrupulous” with your reading and reflection.

Well, as I believe HD was suggesting, even if there are 90% saying GET REGULAR CONFESSOR DO NOT PASS GO DO NOT COLLECT $200, there’s always a 10% that mixes that with other advice, some of which will offer appealing rabbit holes to the scrupulous person–and that’s what the person will almost certainly glom onto. It’s the nature of the medium, that there’s always going to be some chaff in there with the wheat. Unfortunately, it’s the chaff that will appeal to the scrupulous person.

Frequent confession is no good if the person is confessor “shopping” to get the answer they want–it’s virtually the same dynamic as posting on a forum, just slower–even if 95% of priests are kind and pastoral, eventually you’ll find the other 5%.

Also, I expect HD (like myself), has often seen posters coming back with the same question over and over again.

Hence the need for continuity, both with regard to a spiritual director/regular confessor and ongoing medical treatment. The person needs to keep getting consistent answers from people that know them well.

 

[Bookcat]

I think this thread is going well beyond the actual question…perhaps to discussions that are not helpful here. Lets move on …