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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Can I take your lack of response to my actual question as proof that you can not find examples of people being admonished for their concern for the Coptics in Egypt?
EGYPT - Egypt, Muslim Brotherhood assaults 22 Christian churches [AN]
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Darryl1958
Guest
Sure.
Post 103, you said it makes you sad that this thread is going on and on like it is.
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TEPO
Guest
To admonish means to “gently counsel against something”. You said: ". The trend on this sub-forum is- persecution of innocent Christians by Muslims= outrage, persecution of innocent Muslims by anyone else= “well we all know they (the Muslims) started it and deserve it since everyone knows there is no such thing as an innocent Muslim”.
…are you now going to suggest that you were simply stating that we should become vocally “outraged” about other forms of persecution as well? I’ll do it, if that’s actually your request… Right after you declare here, right here on this thread how disgusted you are with the MB and their Islamist followers.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
I’ve reread post 103. I don’t see how you conclude my comments in 103 are in anyway me admonishing anyone on their concern for the Coptics in Egypt. The only way I can conclude you think any of my comments amount to me admonishing anyone on their concern for the Coptics in Egypt is if you take the view that we don’t need to worry about the morality of the actions taken by the individuals who are against the MB.
Yeah, I guess shame on me for thinking that the Church teaches us that we aren’t to ignore the immorality of one individual (such as the Egyptian military) just because the victim of his immorality (innocent Egyptian Muslims and non-innocent Muslims) is someone we don’t like, or a member of/associated with a group we don’t like (the general Muslim population of Egypt as a whole and the MB) and/or someone who engages in immorality himself (the guilt of an individual or group does not negate our duty to act in a moral manner and our duty not to support those who act in an immoral manner).
So, please cite where I’ve admonished or talked negatively of any poster who has shown concern for the Coptics in Egypt. Objecting to the “hey, they are against the people we don’t like so we can ignore their actions” approach- yeah, guilty as charged. Not happy that the only victims that anyone on here seems to be concerned with are the Christian ones- yeah, guilty as charged. Objecting to the concern shown for the Coptics in Egypt- yeah, find someone else to try to pin that on.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
- So me admonishing other posters for ignoring/rationalizing the actions of or showing support for the Egyptian military (which has a long history of engaging in immoral behavior and has engaged in immoral behavior in this current round of protests) and pretty much ignoring non-Christian victims is me admonishing people for showing concern for the Coptics?
- “are you now going to suggest that you were simply stating that we should become vocally “outraged” about other forms of persecution as well?” -Well, you’re the one who set the silly standard that unless one publicly objects to something they must be for it. You probably forgot you did this [post 61- “…and the Muslim Brotherhood has yet to condemn this violence against Christianity! The Muslim Brotherhood must support it then. The MB is a terrorist group.”] because the very next post [post 62] disproves your comment.
- Not directly related to your above comment but to one you posted earlier in this thread- The Pharaoh and pharaonic system of government belonged to a completely different culture/ethnic group. The ancient Egyptians weren’t Arabs, nor were they Muslims. Your comment makes about as much sense as calling for the US (or any other state in North or South America) to adopt the form of government used by the Aztecs or the Incas.
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Darryl1958
Guest
I already did point it out.
In a thread about Copts, the only concern demonstrated by you is for the poor MB that are smashing the Copts to pieces, and your criticism are thereby directed toward those who centre their concerns on the Coptic victims of the Islamists.
So indeed, you are guilty as charged, as you have pointed out.
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TEPO
Guest
Can I take your lack of response to my actual challenge as proof that you do not really care if i or anyone else actually voices their disaproval in regards to other cases of persecution, and therefore, by refusing to condemn the actions of the MB and their followers, that you actually are doing the admonishing?
If you were being honest you would have happily accepted my offer, wouldn’t you have?
The offer still stands though… Just say that you are disgusted by the actions of the MB and their Islamist followers. Then I’ll leave you alone.
. Maybe.Yes, I stood corrected in post 62. I’ll accept the fact that I was wrong, even though the MB leader stated that every action has a reaction in regards to attacks against Christians. But I was still incorrect and I admit it… There was a sort of partial apology or ‘condemnation’ made. But a truly sincere apology by the MB would have been a direct letter to the heads of the Churches. Also, reconstruction donations would have been made.
Have you heard anything about the MB offering to help rebuild the Churches? Have they written letters of apologies? I haven’t heard anything about it.
My point was actually suggesting that democracy might not work well in the Egypt since Sharia law, an unjust system, seems to be preferred by a large number of people there. I was only referencing the Pharoh as an example of a monarchical leader in the same way that I mentioned the queen of England and the King of Spain. I don’t believe that Democracy is for everyone. I also don’t believe in nation building like McCain and others seem to subscribe to. I don’t mind helping other countries, that’s not what I’m saying -what I am saying is that there are other ways to create half decent governments, and that if one way fails there are other ways to improve.
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gilliam
Guest
Brutal murders, looting and burning, Facebook rumors. Egypt’s Islamist party is leading a campaign of deadly lies against the country’s Christian minority as the world watches.
The group that “renounced violence” in an effort to gain political power is engaged in a full-scale campaign of terror against Egypt’s Christian minority. Brotherhood leaders have incited their followers to attack Christian homes, shops, schools and churches throughout the country. Samuel Tadros, an Egyptian scholar with the Hudson Institute, told me these attacks are the worst violence against the Coptic Church since the 14th century.
thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/22/the-muslim-brotherhood-s-war-on-coptic-christians.html
The group that “renounced violence” in an effort to gain political power is engaged in a full-scale campaign of terror against Egypt’s Christian minority. Brotherhood leaders have incited their followers to attack Christian homes, shops, schools and churches throughout the country. Samuel Tadros, an Egyptian scholar with the Hudson Institute, told me these attacks are the worst violence against the Coptic Church since the 14th century.
thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/22/the-muslim-brotherhood-s-war-on-coptic-christians.html
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
No, you haven’t pointed anything out. What you’ve done is to do your best to put words into my mouth. In a thread full of people cheering on and approving of the actions of the Egyptian military that has-
-illegally taken control of the Egyptian government (wonder how many of the Egyptian military fans on here would have a similar reaction if the liberals illegally seized power here)
-indiscriminately opened fire on protesters (would you like me to link photos of the slain women and children or do you assume that since they were at the protest and are Muslim they must be terrorists?)
-targeted Mosques, hospitals, etc for unjustified violent actions (what assuming that wounded/incapacitated terrorists and innocent civilians aren’t high enough of a threat to warrant violent actions against is too unrealistic of me?)
-all I’ve done is try to reminder my fellow posters about the Church’s teachings. We can not support nor cheer on a group that systematically engages in immoral behavior as a matter of standard procedure. We also are not allowed to ignore or rejoice in the suffering of a person or group simply because they aren’t of our faith (yes, even the people who engage in immoral behavior/actions).
The closest I’ve come to supporting anything about the MB in any of my posts is to try to get the point across that we are not allowed to engage in, support, or encourage immoral actions against them (which, despite it being based on some fundamental teachings of the Church, is apparently such a novel idea to some of the posters on here that I haven’t even bothered to point out that not all members of the MB are guilty of immoral actions).
Yeah, shame on me for stating that Church teachings concerning morality and moral behavior applies to everyone. Shame on me for thinking that we can’t determine the morallity or immorality of an action based on our personal feelings concerning the victim of the actions. You’d think I was under the silly illusion that our faith and its teachings come directly from God and apply to everyone. /sarcasm
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Robert_Bay
Guest
MODERATOR WARNING
This thread is becoming way too personal. Please charitably discuss the issues and not each other nor how each other posts.
This thread is becoming way too personal. Please charitably discuss the issues and not each other nor how each other posts.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Well anyway as to the OP, the Christians were/are targeted by the MB, for sure. Christian persecution is by large ignored. I don’t understand why this is. This has become a phenomenon.
What to do? 
:newidea:?
What to do?
:newidea:?
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GraceSofia
Guest
I believe spreading the information is important. There are still too many people who believe that Christians are over-privileged, and who do not believe that Christians are the victims of wholesale and horrific persecution around the world. Some people will not be able to do much more in the way of action, but some will be in a position to give material/financial aid to the persecuted Christians and some will be able to write to their congresspersons or MPs and influence political solutions. Organise candlelight vigils? Organise peaceful protests to highlight the problem? Something to change the perception that nobody cares if Christians are murdered or persecuted? Pray for the persecuted Church, write to them, adopt priests or children to pray for, write to politicians about things like religious repression in Saudi Arabia to protest that status quo which so influences the minds of people.Well anyway as to the OP, the Christians were/are targeted by the MB, for sure. Christian persecution is by large ignored. I don’t understand why this is. This has become a phenomenon.
What to do?
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Christian persecution is largely being ignored/accepted in the ME because they (ME Christians) are “them” (different ethnic group, different tribes, etc) and are easy targets for the governments and political/social leaders to blame for everything wrong in ME societies (“It’s not our fault most of our citizens live in poverty, are uneducated, and unemployed, its “their” fault”). Christian persecution is largely being ignored/accepted in the West because of the dislike for religion/anything that holds you to higher standard than “do whatever makes you happy,” the effects of over 200 years of increasing anti-religion propaganda, and the odd Western characteristic of labeling anything from our past or of Western origin as somehow being wrong (the opposite of the Victorian idea of the West [Europe] bring civilization to the “savages”).Well anyway as to the OP, the Christians were/are targeted by the MB, for sure. Christian persecution is by large ignored. I don’t understand why this is. This has become a phenomenon.
What to do?
As to what to do about it, the best I can think of is to figure out how to get ME governments to actually take care of their citizens instead of looking for a scapegoat and to demand that our government incorporate some sort of morality other than the traditional “as long as I get mine” and “my country right or wrong” approaches into our foreign policy.
Let’s face it, had the West bothered to actually try to establish legit (as in viewed by the populace as legit and not just puppet governments) governments in the ME states that focused on the welfare of the people instead of the welfare and/or strategic aims of the West the ME would be a much better, and peaceful, place.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I believe your right, I think its all the above. Christians are becoming increasingly aware for sure and seem to be bringing the topic to public forums in the viral world. In public its more, imho a alarming conversation still reaching out and sinking in.
You get the impression that since martyrdom is a Christian way, so then the attitude from outsiders is why say anything.
We need to be more of a visual message you think?
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ServantPD
Guest
We’re slowly going back to persecution, and it’d probably stop if the media started to give awareness about it and people started to realize it. But nah… that doesn’t give enough scandal to go anywhere to the papers, not even if they stoned us. And people like to attack the major group in pretty much anything, and we can easily see that in politics. We’re the biggest and fastest-growing religion in the world, no doubt this was going to happen. If the same type of behaviour went to other religious groups, the media wouldn’t shut up about it for at least a couple of weeks.
I guess we could say we need to get used to it, and work to make a change. This world isn’t very warm, it’s up to us to contribute to become so…
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
Pray the rosary for these Christians.Well anyway as to the OP, the Christians were/are targeted by the MB, for sure. Christian persecution is by large ignored. I don’t understand why this is. This has become a phenomenon.
What to do?
Never underestimate the power of prayer.
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GraceSofia
Guest
Yes, in the West, although it is more of suppression, the pace is picking up. In the East, it has never stopped.
And that doesn’t even mention India and Pakistan. Or Nigeria. Smyrna 1922.
(Quote from Disappearing Christians in the Middle East)
Imagine if the Western media championed the cause the way they have for some other causes!
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GraceSofia
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Memaw
Guest
I totally agree, I think its beyond human ability to solve our world’s problems of any kind without the Mercy of God and the help of Our Blessed Mother. She asked us, (nearly begged us) to pray the Rosary every day in 1917. I often wonder what our world would be like today if only all Catholics had done as she requested us to do. Amend our lives, pray the rosary, dress modestly, Godly marriages, no sins of the flesh, (she said “More souls go to Hell because of sins of the flesh, than for any other reason,”). Does that sound like today!!! If only we would start today and follow Her requests. I believe the world our children and grandchildren have to look forward to would be sooo much better.
2 Chronicles 7: 14
IF MY PEOPLE, WHICH ARE CALLED
BY MY NAME, SHALL HUMBLE
THEMSELVES, AND PRAY, AND SEEK
MY FACE, AND TURN FROM THEIR
WICKED WAYS; THEN WILL I HEAR
FROM HEAVEN, AND WILL FORGIVE
THEIR SINS AND HEAL THEIR LAND.
God Bless, Memaw
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TEPO
Guest
In any case, the Islamists will pay for their destruction… The Egyptian military has gone ahead and offered to rebuilt all the Churches that the MB and their useful idiots have destroyed. That money will come from Egyptians -including the Islamist ones.
Justice will be served.
Justice will be served.
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