Egypt: Muslim extremists 'surround church and threaten to kill priest'

[James_Trevor]

Revealing the truth is charitable.

I agree with Ken.

Denouncing an entire faith and it’s adherents is not. Every belief system in some way has threads of the Truth, and every person a chance to enter into the Lord’s rest. I do not claim Islam is true, I firmly believe in Catholicism, and I therefore pray for their conversions and all of those outside the Faith. It is contrary to this goal to be uncharitable to those outside the Faith, such as bluntly denying any sense of good in any person no matter who they are.

In other words - Be nice. Pray for them and their victims.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I just remembered something related to this topic.

I don’t know about this particular incident, but a few weeks ago I was reading about a similar one, in which the trapped Christians slung curses and rocks back at their attackers. It seems to me this was not the right response. If there is ever going to be a time for a practical application of turn the other cheek, it seems to me this is it. Sure, call the police, fortify the church building, and legitimately protect yourself if you can, but don’t bring yourself down to the level of the angry mob attacking you.

Reading this also revealed something not so nice about myself, though, which might be worth sharing. When I started reading the article, I first thought of the besieged Christians as persecuted brothers in Christ, and my heart went out to them. Then when I read about the curses and rock throwing, I instantly thought, “well, these Copts are heretical schismatics, after all.” Not very consistent. We all need to grow in charity.

 

[SamH]

In other words, the mob rules.

The same mob our president wants to give billions of dollars to.

 

[SamH]

I just remembered something related to this topic.

I don’t know about this particular incident, but a few weeks ago I was reading about a similar one, in which the trapped Christians slung curses and rocks back at their attackers. It seems to me this was not the right response. If there is ever going to be a time for a practical application of turn the other cheek, it seems to me this is it.

Here’s your opportunity to go to Egypt and show us how it’s done.

 

[ringil]

Revealing the truth is charitable.

I agree with Ken.

The Holy Father and the Catechism disagrees with you.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Here’s your opportunity to go to Egypt and show us how it’s done.

Voluntarily seek out martyrdom like Origen tried to? No thank you. I see your point, that I should not criticize those placed in a very difficult situation in which I have never been. Would I do better if my parish were suddenly surrounded by an angry mob? It’s useless to speculate on that sort of thing, because I would do whatever I freely chose to do, as always. The fact is, an opportunity to be a witness for Christ was lost by the actions of these Christians, unless the media report completely misrepresented what they did (which is a possibility).

Please, let’s not tear out each other’s throats out here. We are all sinners. We all need to grown in charity, on every side. Let’s not succumb to the same kind of factious hatred and hasty judgment that spawns these sorts of angry mobs.

 

[Linda_Marie]

“I think I read somewhere that some Christians, don’t know what flavour, someplace, don’t know where, engaged in rock throwing and cursing while under assault so this priest and the members of his congregation deserved to be assaulted and/or killed.” I sure hope this wasn’t being implied cause that is the way I understood it.

It is a good thing they managed to lock the church. Had the mob gotten in they would have killed the priest and badly beaten everyone else there, if not killed them too. In 5 hours, it is a wonder they did not burn the church down with everyone inside.

If there is any blame to be apportioned, it belongs to the perpetrators, who, imho, were not extremists, but ordinary every day Muslims incited by their imams.

I’ve seen this happen, personally, in 1967 during the 6 Day War when thousands of the locals, who were our friends the day before, stormed our camp in KSA and rioted outside the gates, howling for our blood, until the King’s troops arrived the next day. They had to relieve the American Consulate and Dhahran, both of which had been breached, before they got to us. We were holding out, having gotten our gates shut and locked before the mob arrived. Just like the priest got the church doors locked. Maybe I have more sympathy for the priest having been on the receiving end of unprovoked Muslim violence myself. BTW, I had just turned 15.

The day before, I liked Muslims and was ‘on their side’ in the conflict. The next - I had a rude awakening. I don’t want other people to have the same. I’d rather they woke up before the mob was at the gates.

 

[Darryl1958]

The Muslim Brotherhood both appeals to and incites the mob mentality on behalf of the these everyday Muslims.
Every prediction is that the Muslim Brotherhood will win election, just as virtually any Islamist group would win elections in virtually any country in the House of Islam.

The mob mentality has been divinely sanctioned as holy jihad by Allah himself as is the common belief.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

“I think I read somewhere that some Christians, don’t know what flavour, someplace, don’t know where, engaged in rock throwing and cursing while under assault so this priest and the members of his congregation deserved to be assaulted and/or killed.” I sure hope this wasn’t being implied cause that is the way I understood it.

:banghead:



I suppose the next time I say I like cats, I’ll be accused of Isis worship, and if I criticize China’s currency manipulation, someone will say I’m justifying genocide against East Asians. Please! If a crowd is cursing at you and throwing rocks at you, if you do the same back at them it will only escalate the situation and make you loose at least some of your moral credibility. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take prudent measures to defend yourself, much less that those attacking you, or of course any others, are justified!

On this thread about persecuted Christians, which was devolving into an argument about the evils of Islam, I thought it might provide some balance to show that all sides of these kinds of conflicts are generally flawed, myself too, so we all need to grow in charity and mutual understanding.

So please, folks, take a chill pill.

We are all on the same side here.

 

[Darryl1958]

:banghead:

On this thread about persecuted Christians, which was devolving into an argument about the evils of Islam…

The truth of the matter is, this mob was formed in the name of Islam.
Telling the truth about a heinous event really should not be portrayed as ‘devolving’.

 

[Linda_Marie]

<…> Please! If a crowd is cursing at you and throwing rocks at you, if you do the same back at them it will only escalate the situation and make you loose at least some of your moral credibility. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take prudent measures to defend yourself, much less that those attacking you, or of course any others, are justified!

On this thread about persecuted Christians, which was devolving into an argument about the evils of Islam, I thought it might provide some balance to show that all sides of these kinds of conflicts are generally flawed, myself too, so we all need to grow in charity and mutual understanding.

So please, folks, take a chill pill.

We are all on the same side here.

It is a thread about Christians being persecuted by Muslims so it is on topic to expound on the truth of Islam from which the danger arises.

Balance would be showing us some stories about Muslims and Imams being assaulted and beseiged in their mosques while an angry Christian mob outside shouts that they are going to kill them. Bring up stories about how many mosques are burned down and how Muslimas in the west are kidnapped, forced to convert and married off or gang-raped, just because they are Muslims.

Bringing up a rumour about Christians throwing curses or rocks back in self defense while under attack is not balance.

I did ask you to clarify your statement, in a roundabout way. Was that what you intended to say? cause that was how I understood it. It was not an accusation but a request for clarification. I should have been clearer and I apologise.

I sure hope this wasn’t being implied cause that is the way I understood it.

The statement, “All sides being generally flawed.”, sounds like a statement that we shouldn’t expose the truth about Islam because Christians aren’t perfect. Is this what you mean?

It is not Muslims dying at the hands of Christians in the name of Christianity, but Christians, dying at the hands of Muslims in the name of Islam, over and over and over and over again. It isn’t just in Egypt that Christians are under attack from Muslims simply for being Christian.

An international interfaith conference has revealed that 105,000 Christians are being killed every year simply because of their faith.
The shocking figures revealed at the “International Conference on Inter-religious dialogue between Christians, Jews and Muslims,” held in Hungary, show that a Christian is killed every five minutes somewhere in the world because of their faith.

We welcome them to our lands, and they repay us with violence.
muslim riots in sweden
muslim riots in france
muslim riots in detroit
muslim riots in london
muslim riots in paris
muslim riots in china
muslim riots in england
muslim riots in europe
muslim riots in australia

It is not us Christians who need to ‘take a chill pill’.

It is time to stop making excuses for Islam and to recognise the inherent danger in order to protect ourselves. How many more riots, murders, rapes, beatings, by Muslims, in the name of Islam, is it going to take to convince people that Islam in inherently violent. We need to look at the evidence without blinders, without taking a tranquilizer to numb ourselves to the truth.

If we don’t wake up to the threat from Islam, we, also, will be beseiged in our churches and threatened with beatings, rape, forced conversions and marriages, sale into slavery, and death just for being Christian. We won’t have to go to Egypt to be martyred. We can stay right where we are and wait.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

It seems to me this arguement is distinctly counterproductive, so perhaps we shouldn’t continue it. I’ll just respond to this:

“The statement, “All sides being generally flawed.”, sounds like a statement that we shouldn’t expose the truth about Islam because Christians aren’t perfect. Is this what you mean?”

Of course not! By all means point out legitimate flaws in the religion and truly bad movements that exist in the Muslim world. What I object to is adopting the same hateful attitude towards Muslims as many of them have toward us. It is very understandable to react to hate with more hate, but it is not Christian.

 

[Linda_Marie]

It seems to me this arguement is distinctly counterproductive, so perhaps we shouldn’t continue it. I’ll just respond to this:

“The statement, “All sides being generally flawed.”, sounds like a statement that we shouldn’t expose the truth about Islam because Christians aren’t perfect. Is this what you mean?”

Of course not! By all means point out legitimate flaws in the religion and truly bad movements that exist in the Muslim world. What I object to is adopting the same hateful attitude towards Muslims as many of them have toward us. It is very understandable to react to hate with more hate, but it is not Christian.

What hateful attitude? The only hatred I see is on the part of Muslims.

We are in danger from Islam. Jihad has been declared, but those of us who speak up and keep this fact from being swept under the carpet are accused of hatred. It is not. It is prudence. Blinding ourselves to the truth will leave us defenseless.

Was it hateful to criticise Kruschev when he said, while pounding his shoe on the podium, “We will bury you.”? Was any criticism of communism immediately dismissed as hatred the way criticism of Islam is? “You can’t lump all communists together. It is only a few who want to bury us.” Was there then, no danger from communism?

That’s all I’m trying to get across here. I have no hatred of Muslims although, due to the actions of many: Muslim gangs terrorizing neighbourhoods, beating shopkeepers, teachers, and raping women in the West, while burning churches, murdering priests, beheading converts, crucifying opponents, kidnapping Christian girls and forcing them to convert and marry or selling them as sex slaves, in Muslim dominated countries; I view all Muslims with suspicion. It happens so often and with no opposition from Islamic religious leaders, but rather, encouragment, that I cannot, for my own personal safety, disregard the actions done by so many Muslims in the name of Islam.

I didn’t commit any of these crimes, but for some reason, being wary of Muslims because of it is ‘hatred’.

 

[gilliam]

I think the thing to remember here is that there are extremes in all religions. The extreme Muslims in Egypt happen to have the backing (or are part of) the Muslim Brotherhood which is the largest political force in Egypt (outside the military.) Most Egyptians agree with their principles (if we are to believe surveys). They also control the “freedom fighters” in Syria and have a lot of influence on the “rebels” in Libya.

They do not represent all Muslims in the world.

The MB doesn’t like Christians much, that is why the Christians in Egypt and Syria are very worried right now.

 

[Darryl1958]

I think the thing to remember here is that there are extremes in all religions. The extreme Muslims in Egypt happen to have the backing (or are part of) the Muslim Brotherhood which is the largest political force in Egypt (outside the military.) Most Egyptians agree with their principles (if we are to believe surveys). They also control the “freedom fighters” in Syria and have a lot of influence on the “rebels” in Libya.

They do not represent all Muslims in the world.

The MB doesn’t like Christians much, that is why the Christians in Egypt and Syria are very worried right now.

Once the extremist go mainstream, they are no longer the extremist fringe.
They rule the roost. Their extremist views become the norm.

The MB doesn’t like Christians much. the don’t like other religions even less. As for Jews, we won’t even go there.

And by all accounts, they stand on the verge of getting elected by popular demand.

They may not represent all Muslims in all the world. (Nobody does, especially not the moderate voices).
They do not even represent all the Muslims in Egypt.

But like Hamas in Gaza, they will almost certainly represent the majority voice in Egypt soon enough.
I wonder if they will bring back crucifixion on the law books like Hamas did?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Last post of mine on this thread (I think).

Whatever my faults, whatever my errors and sins, however my pride, my desire to be right, may be blinding me, for this I apologize. At the same time, whatever may be of value in what I have said, please do not reject this because of the fragility of the earthen vessel in which it is born.

“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

“Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.”

I do not yet have the clear discernment to see what is wrong with what I have said. That does not mean I was not wrong. Please, forgive and know you are forgiven.

 

[Syllogisms]

May God bless those who are persecuted. They are in my prayers. It’s not easy being a Christian anywhere but I deal with mocking and ridicule and not fear of death. It’s so sad I never hear about this except from Christian sources.

 

[GraceSofia]

It seems that this particular priest refuses to allow his people to be victims of extortion.
He needs our prayers. He is a very brave man.

Egypt: Desire for Money – Jizya – Prompts Attacks on Christians

The official story is that they were livid that the priest had earlier tried to make renovations to the 100-year old church–Islam forbids building new or repairing old churches. After forcing renovations to cease on threats that they would demolish the church, they also tried to banish the priest, giving him 50 days to quit the region. The priest’s time was up, yet he refused to abandon his flock. Hence, the wild attack.
…

…. [T]he church’s priest had declared that the Copts would not pay jizya, in any way, shape, or form. This is what caused the Salafists to want to banish him from the region, so they could collect jizya from the Copts.

… Dr. Amani Tawfiq, a female professor at Egypt’s Mansoura University, said “If Egypt wants to slowly but surely get out of its economic situation and address poverty in the country, the jizya has to be imposed on the Copts.” And days ago, Hazim Abu Isma’il, who is running for Egypt’s presidency, vowed he would impose the jizya on Egypt’s Christians.