Either Catholics or Mormons have it right...

[Jim_Dandy]

Jim Dandy,

Of course the words are written in the words of man, so man can read them. How I know that God gave the words is by the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost confirming that the truths of the Bible are true and are from God, and by living by the teachings of the Bible so that as the Savior taught, “If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God…” (John 7:17) I know of the doctrine by that very means. The Savior taught a very important principle in that teaching.

Hmmmm. Mormonism didn’t exist until 1830 – born in the U.S.A. There was no Bible per se until the end of the fourth century and beginning of the fifth – born in Rome and confirmed in Hippo, Carthage, Florence, Trent. You say the Holy Ghost (a separate God, a personage of spirit in Mormonism) is your confirming witness that the Bible is true and is from God? Does this same “personage of spirit” tell you that the same Church that wrote the NT, selected the contents, canonized them, and formed the Bible is the same Church that became “Apostate” at the end of the first century?

How does this “spirit personage God” communicate with you? Do you get a “burning in the bosom” when you read the Bible, as you do for the Book of Mormon? Is that the sign that it’s true? Did this “spirit-personage God” give you a list of the contents? If not, how to do you know which books belong in the Bible? It’s a collection of books, written by different people in different places for different audiences and purposes. Do you get a “burning in the bosom” as confirmation when you read each book?

“The Savior” is a separate God, the spirit-child of God the Heavenly Father and one of his many goddess wives. He came to earth through the sexual union of Heavenly Father and his spirit-daughter, the Virgin Mary. Isn’t that the definition of incest? Yes, indeedy. The Son’s spirit-brother is Lucifer, aka Satan. Just think, a Mormon man can become a God of flesh and bones and body parts and passions and rule over his own world and have endless spirit children with his many goddess wives just like Heavenly Father. It boggles the Christian mind.

For a Catholic, it’s simple. The Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world who wrote the NT and formed and named the Bible tells us which books belong in it and that it’s true.

“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth” John 4:24

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[ParkerD]

Hmmmm. Mormonism didn’t exist until 1830 – born in the U.S.A. There was no Bible per se until the end of the fourth century and beginning of the fifth – born in Rome and confirmed in Hippo, Carthage, Florence, Trent. You say the Holy Ghost (a separate God, a personage of spirit in Mormonism) is your confirming witness that the Bible is true and is from God? Does this same “personage of spirit” tell you that the same Church that wrote the NT, selected the contents, canonized them, and formed the Bible is the same Church that became “Apostate” at the end of the first century?

Jim Dandy,

The existence of inspired writings is not a proof about the compilers or transcribers or even translators, at all. People can gain enough inspiration from God to do good things (such as compile the Bible) without it being evidence that they have complete inspiration for everything they do.

The departures from Biblical truths early on after the deaths of the apostles or the departure of John are easily found by reading the Bible itself. The Holy Ghost will always confirm religious truths to the sincere in heart who ask in faith.

How does this “spirit personage God” communicate with you? Do you get a “burning in the bosom” when you read the Bible, as you do for the Book of Mormon?

The burning in the bosom as the two disciples had on the road to Emmaus is one way the Holy Ghost is described. I am comfortable with describing it that way, and do gain that same inspiration reading the Bible and applying its teachings as reading the Book of Mormon.

Did this “spirit-personage God” give you a list of the contents?

You don’t understand. One asks in faith about truths, not about books or about contents.

Do you get a “burning in the bosom” as confirmation when you read each book?

Again, the confirming witness is about truths, not about “books”. It is gained when reading truths and when asking about those truths with sincere prayer or meditation and with a willingness to live by the truths, thus establishing hope in Christ, charity, and a desire to be sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Your next paragraph shows that you know less than nothing about LDS teachings on those subjects, but it seems to be par for the course for some who cling to whatever they read.

“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth” John 4:24

Yes, and that is what we all should do–worship Him in spirit and in truth. Our spirit should get involved, and as we sincerely do that with full intent to obey the commandments and follow Christ, the Holy Spirit can get involved with us.

 

[onenow1]

Jim Dandy,

The existence of inspired writings is not a proof about the compilers or transcribers or even translators, at all.

It had better be if it is considered inspired !

People can gain enough inspiration from God to do good things (such as compile the Bible) without it being evidence that they have complete inspiration for everything they do.

Who desides what is enough ? And the everything they did was write the content its not about all they did.

The departures from Biblical truths early on after the deaths of the apostles or the departure of John are easily found by reading the Bible itself. The Holy Ghost will always confirm religious truths to the sincere in heart who ask in faith.

Hope your not calling a portion of sincere Christians insincere, that disagree with you thus making the Holy Spirit confused; and it seems to me your are reading the bible {LOOK ABOVE 3rd Quote}and at the same time denying their content can be interpreted correctly by others: Making the Holy Spirit conform to your eisegesis and faith tradition alone.

You don’t understand. One asks in faith about truths, not about books or about contents.

The NT is the tradition handed down by the writers guided by the Holly Spirit whether Apostles or there scribes . Simply put you are using the bible as your proof text.:twocents:

God Bless

 

[ParkerD]

OneNow1,

I have thought about how I can explain using analogies. Here goes:

Truths from God can be compared with pure water, flowing from the pure water source–the Father, the Savior (the Son), and the Holy Ghost with Their united voice of truth conveying truths to humankind as humankind seeks those truths. The pure source never changes.

Drinking from the pure source is enlivening, uplifting, rejuvenating, fulfilling–giving life to the soul and nourishing the spirit as well as the body and mind. The Bible certainly contains “pure truths”, but those pure truths may become less than pure when “seen through a glass darkly” or when modified in any way by men. This is why having the Holy Spirit is so important, and why I don’t hesitate to say that I understand how the Holy Spirit witnesses about those pure truths. If men gather those pure truths (gather the pure water), then the closer they adhere to gaining them from the pure source, the better, but we can also have the help of the Holy Spirit to re-purify the water if they had introduced some slight impurity or even a more than slight impurity. The pure source didn’t change in that process–what was done with the pure water after it left the pure source is what changed.

So the Bible is a pure source of truths about God, but that says nothing about a compiler other than that they also loved the pure truths, even if they take the pure water and detract from it in any way. The water can be re-purified. God will support all those who seek the purity from its source, but it is something that must be sought after, not assumed.

The truths of the Bible aren’t to hold people in, but to give them nourishment to be “free indeed”–through drinking from that water of life that is the pure source. “Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters,” wrote Isaiah. These waters of life are free indeed, and those truths do make us free.

 

[catholic-rcia]

OneNow1,

I have thought about how I can explain using analogies. Here goes:

Truths from God can be compared with pure water, flowing from the pure water source–the Father, the Savior (the Son), and the Holy Ghost with Their united voice of truth conveying truths to humankind as humankind seeks those truths. The pure source never changes.

Drinking from the pure source is enlivening, uplifting, rejuvenating, fulfilling–giving life to the soul and nourishing the spirit as well as the body and mind. The Bible certainly contains “pure truths”, but those pure truths may become less than pure when “seen through a glass darkly” or when modified in any way by men. This is why having the Holy Spirit is so important, and why I don’t hesitate to say that I understand how the Holy Spirit witnesses about those pure truths. If men gather those pure truths (gather the pure water), then the closer they adhere to gaining them from the pure source, the better, but we can also have the help of the Holy Spirit to re-purify the water if they had introduced some slight impurity or even a more than slight impurity. The pure source didn’t change in that process–what was done with the pure water after it left the pure source is what changed.

So the Bible is a pure source of truths about God, but that says nothing about a compiler other than that they also loved the pure truths, even if they take the pure water and detract from it in any way. The water can be re-purified. God will support all those who seek the purity from its source, but it is something that must be sought after, not assumed.

The truths of the Bible aren’t to hold people in, but to give them nourishment to be “free indeed”–through drinking from that water of life that is the pure source. “Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters,” wrote Isaiah. These waters of life are free indeed, and those truths do make us free.

What you are describing Parker, in some pretty solid ways reads “the Mass” in essence it is because of the 2000 year old Mass that you are even here today contemplating such things. The Mass is the life blood of Christianity. The heart beat of Christianity.

Do this Parker. Spend some time here, take a break for awhile, Read these life stories

http://www.catholic.org/saints/popular.php

http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap060500.htm

The Mass, Holy Communion, confession, the sacraments brings about Sanctification. Catholics call this a dying to self. The fountain of Life is Jesus Himself. I receive this Water at Mass. All I see in the Catholic Church is truth and love. Darkness into light at every Corner. Last night was a Mass to remember Mary, the role she played in saying yes to Gods will. Eves no to God turned into Mary’s yes to God. Christmas is very much alive in the Catholic Church right now. I have been blessed to celebrate 12 now. Before that I see nothing but a void that I did not know existed. But I am ont the other side now and see this void clearly. Through Christ it has been filled.

 

[tskrobacz]

The title of this thread is itself flawed as it seeks to attain a righteous position…I’m right and you are wrong (the very position Jesus warned against MATT 6:1). This is not the message of Jesus nor of true Catholicism which must always find ways to “include” all of creation, all peoples, all faiths in the ultimate truths that God created and loves everyone and is often revealed in the very tension between multiple belief systems - the existence of which constantly reminds us of the unknowable and mysterious nature of God.

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

I have shared with you an ancient document written by St. Justin the Martyr that was written at the request of the Roman Emperor around 155 AD explaining how the Sunday Mass was said in Rome and the Christian world at that time.

This form was only 60 years after the death of the last apostle, yet the practice of this form of the Mass was being assimilated by many peoples and regions throughout the Christian world…a feat considered supernatural considering the modes of communication in those days.

Do you have access to documents in how the Mormon worship service was practiced in its earliest form in the mid 1800’s?

 

[KathleenGee]

Secondly,

Exactly what it is that makes the Catholic/Orthodox priesthood corrupt?

The president/presbyter/priest has prayed since the beginning of millenium to accept this thanksgiving, a pleasing sacrifice…a fulfillment from the Be’kaa of the Jewish tradition of the memorial. So in essence, the priest is admitting his state as a sinner and asking acceptance by God…

At the offertory, the priest washes his hands asking the Lord to wash away all his iniquities…

 

[DCNBILL]

Parker, what your faith does is take the words from the Bible and then place them in an entirely distorted context. This is in the same category as bearing false witness. Getting others to do the same against Christ’s True Church.

As a Child I too learned how Jesus walked aross the ocean to America. But as an adult I understand the context of that scripture. You can make a child prouder to be an American with such context along with some really neat images, pictures found in the LDS Ensign. (Family) But some of us grow up and find out who’s children we really are. I for one am Gods Child, my parents just borrowed me for awhile.

Just the fact that God is one un changing God and that the Mormon god is a god of progression is enough for me to point out that your faith is “other”

What Jim Dandy is writing is truth plain and simple.

Parker, you write:

“Of course the words are written in the words of man, so man can read them.”

This kind of writing is just going down into the mud. And when you or other LDS here start doing this, this is where it goes round and round.

Jim Dandy has brought forth plain and simple, historical, authentic and Biblical facts that cannot be denied at all. No grey areas, no shadows. It all comes back to the Holy trinity, one God and One Spirit. Jim, Steve, Rebecca and all the others here are in contact with this One Spirit. You are coming up against this and you have to have a sense of this. If you do and if you can let go, this is the Holy Spirit speaking to you Parker, the one we all here have come to know through the Sacraments, the one that loves us all so dearly.

God Bless
Rich
Logan Utah
www.utahmission.com

Rich, may God bless you for your honest love of God and the blessings He can bestow if one is open to Him. I can only hope that your words were read.

 

[BlueShadow123]

If they follow the bible and do as the bible says, and are saved, and accept jesus as their savior, I don’t know how they couldn’t go to heaven. Even if they have NO denomination.

 

[KathleenGee]

blueshadow…

All people of faith who seek God and love their neighbor as themselves, as well as those who live and work for the common good, are on the path to heaven.

 

[BlueShadow123]

blueshadow…

All people of faith who seek God and love their neighbor as themselves, as well as those who live and work for the common good, are on the path to heaven.

Isnt that what I basically just said in my post?

 

[KathleenGee]

There are those who are agnostic or even atheist but do not believe in God, yet have a sense of reciprocity towards mankind…humanitarians, and work for the common good.

But what the focus here is about is Divine revealed Truth.

 

[Stephen168]

OneNow1,

I have thought about how I can explain using analogies. Here goes:

Truths from God can be compared with pure water, flowing from the pure water source–the Father, the Savior (the Son), and the Holy Ghost with Their united voice of truth conveying truths to humankind as humankind seeks those truths. The pure source never changes.

Drinking from the pure source is enlivening, uplifting, rejuvenating, fulfilling–giving life to the soul and nourishing the spirit as well as the body and mind. The Bible certainly contains “pure truths”, but those pure truths may become less than pure when “seen through a glass darkly” or when modified in any way by men. This is why having the Holy Spirit is so important, and why I don’t hesitate to say that I understand how the Holy Spirit witnesses about those pure truths. If men gather those pure truths (gather the pure water), then the closer they adhere to gaining them from the pure source, the better, but we can also have the help of the Holy Spirit to re-purify the water if they had introduced some slight impurity or even a more than slight impurity. The pure source didn’t change in that process–what was done with the pure water after it left the pure source is what changed.

So the Bible is a pure source of truths about God, but that says nothing about a compiler other than that they also loved the pure truths, even if they take the pure water and detract from it in any way. The water can be re-purified. God will support all those who seek the purity from its source, but it is something that must be sought after, not assumed.

The truths of the Bible aren’t to hold people in, but to give them nourishment to be “free indeed”–through drinking from that water of life that is the pure source. “Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters,” wrote Isaiah. These waters of life are free indeed, and those truths do make us free.

The pure water flows from God through the Catholic Church which Christ started 2000 years ago. Men started to muddy it up in the 16th century and by the 19th century in America it was completely polluted. Joseph Smith removed the remaining H2O and called his dirt pure, and he discouraged his followers from testing it; or they might discover it is not water at all. The Church of Joseph Smith fails the test of science, history, or reason.
The pure water flows from Christ through the Catholic Church he started 2000 years ago and its purity can be tested. The Catholic Church can pass the test of science, history, and reason.

 

[ParkerD]

The pure water flows from God through the Catholic Church which Christ started 2000 years ago. Men started to muddy it up in the 16th century and by the 19th century in America it was completely polluted. … The Catholic Church can pass the test of science, history, and reason.

Stephen168,

Then I will be heartily glad to read your explanation in answer to the following comments about “First Cause” creation, given your premise that all science, history, and reason point toward the Catholic church as the fountain of all knowledge and as being completely reasonable in every way:

As I had posted before in another thread, “omnipotent” means “all powerful” with no limitations whatsoever.

“Omniscient” means “all knowing” with no limitations whatsoever, including no limitations of time or space.

God is all powerful and all knowing. This means He knew, for example, that Satan was going to rebel before that happened.

If a person concludes that God is omnipotent, omniscient, started the universe from nothing, and was the First Cause of all creation, then that logically means that God created Satan giving Satan the exact attributes that would logically lead to his (Satan’s) rebellion.

If a person moves along that logic path, then that would mean God was the First Cause of that particular effect and all the subsequent effects (because He is all-knowing about those subsequent effects). It means He didn’t cause the subsequent effects, but that by knowing they were going to happen and by having created the angel who fell through the choices that angel made but had the attributes given to that angel by God through creation, God placed into effect the circumstance that brought Satan into being and thus enabled the subsequent effects to happen. (In other words, leaving Satan out of creation would lead to no rebellion by such an angel. But leaving Satan in, eventuates the situation wherein Satan rebelled by the choice he made because he had the precise qualities he had.)

(I think a computer programmer can understand what I am trying to explain in words, but perhaps few others can.)

By that same logic path, effects that are less than desirable by the creations of God, such as poor (sinful) choices made by human beings, were not only fore-known by Him, but were placed into effect by His creation since He was omnipotent and omniscient at the point in time of the Creation and gave them the precise attributes they (we) have.

But I’m not saying that is how things are. I am saying that is how things aren’t–that God has not worked in the universe in that way.

God created the universe without defying the law He ordained, that matter or energy (in either form) would not be created or destroyed. He also brought spirits into existence from intelligences that already existed, then allowed those spirits to choose what they would do and whom they would follow.

That opportunity of choice continues in this life. It is a wonderful blessing, made infinitely more of a blessing through the atoning grace of the Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

I have shared with you an ancient document written by St. Justin the Martyr that was written at the request of the Roman Emperor around 155 AD explaining how the Sunday Mass was said in Rome and the Christian world at that time.

This form was only 60 years after the death of the last apostle, yet the practice of this form of the Mass was being assimilated by many peoples and regions throughout the Christian world…a feat considered supernatural considering the modes of communication in those days.

Do you have access to documents in how the Mormon worship service was practiced in its earliest form in the mid 1800’s?

KathleenGee,
I can read about the early LDS worship services, yes.

I have also read the translation of the document attributed to Justin the Martyr. I consider it one of the early proofs that there was a departure from the teachings of the Bible at that early point, if his words have been translated accurately which I assume they have.

 

[ParkerD]

Secondly,

Exactly what it is that makes the Catholic/Orthodox priesthood corrupt?

The president/presbyter/priest has prayed since the beginning of millenium to accept this thanksgiving, a pleasing sacrifice…a fulfillment from the Be’kaa of the Jewish tradition of the memorial. So in essence, the priest is admitting his state as a sinner and asking acceptance by God…

At the offertory, the priest washes his hands asking the Lord to wash away all his iniquities…

Kathleen,

The word “corrupt” isn’t a word I use about that. “Not recognized as authority from God” is how I would call the situation.

Your post shows one of the reasons why that happened, as I had noted on the thread you have placed a post on where we got into the subject of “confession”.

That practice of “washing his hands” and so forth is indeed taken from Jewish practices, and shows that the New Covenant gospel was being changed back to assume some of the old traditions from the Old Covenant, the law of Moses where the priest did indeed wash his hands and was acting for the people in completing a sacrifice. But the New Testament clearly teaches that Christ was the ultimate sacrifice and was the High Priest who did not need that Mosaic law practice, and instead completely fulfilled the Mosaic law of sacrifice by being the infinite and eternal sacrifice for the sins of mankind on condition of their repentance.

The New Covenant gospel means there is no longer a priest needing to be the one acting as an intermediary between the people and their covenant with God, including their repentance and forgiveness. This is so that Christ can bring each person, through a personal relationship with Him with no intermediary involved, to both a condition of grace and being healed, and a condition of being changed by being taught by Him and being led on an upward path by Him, toward sanctification. This is why each person needs to “become as a little child”–because a little child is submissive and willing to change.

 

[KathleenGee]

I follow you Parker, up to a certain point, but when you refer to the New Covenant, it does not mean doing away with the priesthood…Yes, washing the feet of people entering a home was a custom, and probably still is in some places today.

Can you define more then, and this time I won’t use the ‘c’ word, exactly how the Mormons perceive our priesthood as not…how should I say it…in the intent of Christ?

 

[Miriam1947]

I follow you Parker, up to a certain point, but when you refer to the New Covenant, it does not mean doing away with the priesthood…Yes, washing the feet of people entering a home was a custom, and probably still is in some places today.

Can you define more then, and this time I won’t use the ‘c’ word, exactly how the Mormons perceive our priesthood as not…how should I say it…in the intent of Christ?

Kathleen, this is what a Mormon apologist does. Parker sounds ever so reasonable as he takes the Bible and our Catholic beliefs and tries to convince you we’re all really the same. It’s called running you around in circles.

Their religion is not Christian, they do not believe in the Trinity, they believe that God was once a man, they believe that Jesus was conceived just the way we are, they believe that they were spirit children who chose to be born so that they can progress and become gods on their very own planets, etc., etc., etc.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes…the room of mirrors…

Parker…

So what was the format of early 1800’s Mormon worship?

And in what passages of Scripture does it show that the Catholic/Orthodox priests are not what Christ wanted?