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ajcstr
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What is this?
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onenow1
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Hi Parker, I posted that excerpt from, Catholic Answers, personally I couldn"t say one way or the other, I merely posted it to get the thread back on track. However I tend to believe the assertion !
Here is where it originates from :Fr. Brian Harrison is a professor at the Pontifical University of Puerto Rico. The entire article was adapted from a pamphlet published by the Australian Catholic Truth Society.
God Bless
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RebeccaJ
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I don’t think that Mormons hide their books, just most of the world is not aware of them, and so you wouldn’t find them in public places such as libraries. In Utah the public libraries carry the major Mormon books.Hi Parker, I posted that excerpt from, Catholic Answers, personally I couldn"t say one way or the other, I merely posted it to get the thread back on track. However I tend to believe the assertion !
Here is where it originates from :Fr. Brian Harrison is a professor at the Pontifical University of Puerto Rico. The entire article was adapted from a pamphlet published by the Australian Catholic Truth Society.
God Bless
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SteveVH
Guest
Back on the topic -
Does anyone think that if an investigation was held in order to convict the Mormon church of being a restoration of the original Church that any evidence could be found to do so? I have yet to see a shred of actual evidence that the early Christians held any uniquely Mormon doctrines, nor a shred of evidence supporting the one leg that Mormonism stands upon; the “Great Apostasy”.
Compare this with the evidence of the Catholic Church, both in scripture and historically, and then make your choice.
Does anyone think that if an investigation was held in order to convict the Mormon church of being a restoration of the original Church that any evidence could be found to do so? I have yet to see a shred of actual evidence that the early Christians held any uniquely Mormon doctrines, nor a shred of evidence supporting the one leg that Mormonism stands upon; the “Great Apostasy”.
Compare this with the evidence of the Catholic Church, both in scripture and historically, and then make your choice.
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KathleenGee
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There is nothing in Judeo Christian salvation history that has any indication of Mormon views…
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Marie5890
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No. It’s why they start out with the idea that some great apostasy occurred. It’s the only way they have to validate their claim that things needed to be restored.
It’s why their doctrines are more than just distorted. Their doctrines are corrupt.
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zerinus
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The greatest evidence for the truth of Mormonism in my opinion is the Book of Mormon.
Well, we don’t claim that everything that has been revealed in this dispensation was necessarily revealed in the previous one. There are doctrines, ordinances, priesthood offices that may not have been revealed in the previous dispensation. But everything that was revealed then has been restored, plus more that may not have been revealed then. It is a new, and the last dispensation of the gospel, in which God is going to reveal things that has never been revealed in any previous dispensation. When we talk of the Restoration, the most important thing that has been restored is the priesthood authority, the keys of the kingdom, by which God can, and will reveal whatever He wants to reveal in the great and last “dispensation of the fulness of times”.
This is a question that comes up all the time, so I have saved myself the trouble by writing a Blog post about it that you can read here.
The Catholic Church is also a respected ancient institution. Asserting the truth of Mormonism does not in any way denigrate the historical place of Catholicism as a great Christian institution worthy of our love and respect. Mormonism is not like Protestantism, the sole purpose of whose existence seems to have been to attack and berate Catholicism. Mormonism has no fight to pick with Catholicism. I love the Pope! I think he is great! Catholicism has had an important role to play in history by preserving the Christian tradition in the world, for which it deserves our deepest respect. Mormonism is a new dispensation of the gospel that need not in any way come into conflict with Catholicism. Historically speaking it has only come into conflict with Protestantism, but never with Catholicism.
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Marie5890
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The pretty much sums up the basic debate between Mormonism and Catholicism, Salesian.
Mormons call it “The Great Apostasy.”
Here is the account of what is claimed to be Joseph Smith’s “First Vision”
lds.org/library/display/0,4945,104-1-3-4,00.html
From this account the following
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
Mormons believe that God Himself declared that all sects, including Catholicism, were wrong. That their creeds were “an abomination in his sight”…(This is Joseph Smith claiming what he had been told)
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Marie5890
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zerinus
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That related to the Protestant ministers whom Joseph Smith had encountered in the religious revival. The Catholics were not involved in that, and it has nothing to do with them.
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Marie5890
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Are you claiming that Mormons don’t believe that Catholics are in a state of apostasy?
Are you claiming that the early church did NOT fall away and end up in a state of apostasy where a so-called restoration was needed.
What are you claiming Mormons believe when it comes the the Catholic church in relation to the so-called “Great Apostasy”…??
I can get more quotes if need be …as can many of us who have lived and breathed Mormonism and even taught it at one point in our lives…
Is the so-called “Great Apostasy” no longer a doctrine to Mormons? THAT would be new…
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KathleenGee
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…I remember that phrase now…that the ‘professors’ were all corrupt. No wonder the Mormons automatically reject the early church fathers or St. Justin the Martyr who wrote about the Mass as it was practiced throughout the world at that time…it is illogical and unscholarly not to study and learn from pure sources.
I do not even think Joseph Smith ever ever even read any Catholic teaching.
Those books…1830-1850’s were corrupt. I am glad the Mormons are withdrawing them…but the construct remains about the Roman Church and the obsession with our faith.
The book I read said that the Roman Church was the great abomination…the language of this author even used bad words about our church and called the same to our ‘Protesant daughters’.
We are open about our past scandals and corrupt…The Mormons need to 'fess up to their in how they systematically indoctrinated their people with such ideas.
I do not even think Joseph Smith ever ever even read any Catholic teaching.
Those books…1830-1850’s were corrupt. I am glad the Mormons are withdrawing them…but the construct remains about the Roman Church and the obsession with our faith.
The book I read said that the Roman Church was the great abomination…the language of this author even used bad words about our church and called the same to our ‘Protesant daughters’.
We are open about our past scandals and corrupt…The Mormons need to 'fess up to their in how they systematically indoctrinated their people with such ideas.
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zerinus
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No, I am not claiming any of those things.
The Apostasy occurred; but that does not translate into saying that the Catholic Church is an evil institution, or accomplished no good in the world.
No need. I already know about them.
It is.
There is nothing new.
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Marie5890
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Im taking it for granted that you are aware of what Bruce R taught about the Catholic church and how for a long time it was assumed by many Mormons and not debunked by LDS leadership that the “great and abominable church” as read in 1 Nephi chapter 13 was thought to be the Catholic Church right?
I know that has been backed off over in the past decades, but Bruce R McConkie (I had his sister as a teacher of “Gospel Doctrine” when I went to BYU , BTW) DID say that in his book “Mormon Doctrine”. Those statements were removed in subsequent editions of the book…
For those who dont know who Bruce McConkie was he was a member of the second highest governing body of the LDS heirarchy known as the Quorum of the 12 Apostles…
For a very long time the idea of the Catholic Church as being the “great and abominable church” was aloud to disseminate thru the Mormon church…
It was awhile before it was pushed back
But it comes down to this when it comes to the original post in this thread…
Was there a “great apostasy” or not?
Mormons say yes. That the early church feel into corruption and God Himself withdrew His authority for the face of the earth. And that because of this there was a “need” to so-called “restore” the church…
They claim that God restored His church thru Joseph Smith. The same Joseph Smith who was told not to join any other church as they were all an abomination in His eyes…etc etc etc…
I know that has been backed off over in the past decades, but Bruce R McConkie (I had his sister as a teacher of “Gospel Doctrine” when I went to BYU , BTW) DID say that in his book “Mormon Doctrine”. Those statements were removed in subsequent editions of the book…
For those who dont know who Bruce McConkie was he was a member of the second highest governing body of the LDS heirarchy known as the Quorum of the 12 Apostles…
For a very long time the idea of the Catholic Church as being the “great and abominable church” was aloud to disseminate thru the Mormon church…
It was awhile before it was pushed back
But it comes down to this when it comes to the original post in this thread…
Was there a “great apostasy” or not?
Mormons say yes. That the early church feel into corruption and God Himself withdrew His authority for the face of the earth. And that because of this there was a “need” to so-called “restore” the church…
They claim that God restored His church thru Joseph Smith. The same Joseph Smith who was told not to join any other church as they were all an abomination in His eyes…etc etc etc…
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Jim_Dandy
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I wrote:
This book illustrates that the Bible – the name means “Little Books” – didn’t become a single volume until the year 1000 and that the concept of a “book” and “the Bible” as one book coincided. The notion of Sola Scriptura – the Bible Alone as the only rule of faith and morals – was totally foreign to Christians for 16 centuries.
If all Christians today knew the history of the Bible, they’d be Catholic. Most of the world’s population could not read until the Industrial Revolution of the late18th and 19th centuries. They learned the Bible by hearing it read aloud at Mass. 50% of us humans are still illiterate today.
Jim Dandy
ajcstr responded:
This is a book published by the Smithsonian Institute in Washington, D.C., in conjunction with their exhibit by the same name October 21, 2006 through January 7, 2007. I wrote the name of the book from memory. I have the book in front of me now, and the correct title is: *** In the Beginning - Bibles Before the Year 1000.*** Biblical manuscripts written during the first thousand years of Christianity were on display at the Smithsonian. This book gives the history of the manuscripts, which are pictured, and traces the evolution of the Bible from the beginning of its development through the year 1000. Beautiful book. Well worth the price. I bought mine from Amazon. It may be cheaper now.
This book illustrates that the Bible – the name means “Little Books” – didn’t become a single volume until the year 1000 and that the concept of a “book” and “the Bible” as one book coincided. The notion of Sola Scriptura – the Bible Alone as the only rule of faith and morals – was totally foreign to Christians for 16 centuries.
If all Christians today knew the history of the Bible, they’d be Catholic. Most of the world’s population could not read until the Industrial Revolution of the late18th and 19th centuries. They learned the Bible by hearing it read aloud at Mass. 50% of us humans are still illiterate today.
Jim Dandy
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zerinus
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Yes, I am aware of that.
He wasn’t an Apostle when he wrote his book.
It was “pushed back,” as you call it, because it was wrong.
Yes, I agree with all of that.
No, that is not correct. That is not what God told Joseph Smith.
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Marie5890
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Marie5890
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But back to the original post of this thread
Either Catholics or Mormons are right…
Which goes to the very heart of the whole idea of the so-called “great apostasy”
If the Catholic Church have it right, there is zero need for a restoration…
Either Catholics or Mormons are right…
Which goes to the very heart of the whole idea of the so-called “great apostasy”
If the Catholic Church have it right, there is zero need for a restoration…
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zerinus
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Actually he did. The “professors” refers to those Protestant ministers who were involved in that religious revival, whom Joseph Smith had encountered. There were no Catholics involved in that revival. It was a purely Protestant revival. Their “creeds” also refers to them as well.
See above.
The Apostasy was universal. It included all churches. But those condemnatory words were not spoken against the Catholic Church. If fact, it was not spoken against any particular church, and least of all against the Catholic Church. It was spoken specifically against those “professors” (i.e. ministers of religion) whom Joseph Smith had encountered—all of whom happened to be Protestants. Indeed, Joseph Smith mentions their denominations by name: they were Methodists, Baptists, and Presbyterians. None of them were Catholics.
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zerinus
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Agreed. And we don’t think the Catholic Church “have got it right”. But that does not mean that it is an evil organization, or that it did not, or could not have done any good.
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