Either Catholics or Mormons have it right...

[Rv_Cain_Spencer]

I agree with you 100%. If Martin Luther had stayed within the Church and truly fought for a true reformation things would be altogether different and much better than what they are today.

Also, you can say that the LDS is a sort of Reformation. If the “Great Apostacy” occured as claimed by the LDS, then the institution of the LDS is a Reform-ation.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

It’s more than a rerform, it’s a recreation. The LDS is not a re-mould of our Church, well it isn’t even made of the same clay!

 

[Logic101]

ON PAGAN SAGES

[Nov. 16, 1945]1

Valtorta :

Depressed by the excessive fatigue of these last days—writing 85 pages in five days—Jesus allowed me to rest (materially). However my spirit does not rest, and the Master instructs it always.

Here is the today’s instruction: I am reading from the sages of Vedic, Persian, Indian poetry, etc. etc. Sacred, spiritual poems, in which are celebrated and described the movements and feelings of the faithful toward God: the ALL, the Truth, as even they call It.

Some of [their writings] could pass for the ascetic writings of St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross. And I cite these because I know them a little. But there are certainly others. Again, one could believe these [pagan writings] are biblical songs filled with loving inspiration. I continue to be astonished. Then says—

JESUS :

"No. No astonishment. Why be astonished?

In any religion, as long as it has an elevated morality, there exists a presence and requirement of virtue, in order to give life to that religion. There is present [in it] therefore: charity, hope, faith, humility, justice, and so on. These are not perfect, coming as they do from an imperfect knowledge of the ALL or Truth. But they always provoke the same moral effects of elevation, of ecstasy, of a prodding toward mercy, humility, and temperance: through a desire and hope of arriving at possession of the ALL, that is, of God.

God, the Sun, has the same lights for all men. Revealed but imperfect religions might create a haze through which the ray of the divine Sun cannot descend as freely to kiss and penetrate its believers. However, the best [adherents] among such religions—those who tend toward God with their whole self—know how to rise with the flight of their spirit beyond the haze. They know how to reach a perfection—which unfortunately is lacking in too many Christians—and to experience the ineffable words of the [Holy] Spirit to their spirit. And [thus] they know the taste of being one with Love, more and better, than do too many lukewarm Catholics.

Do not be astonished, then, if a [Muslim] Sufi2 has pages that are “sisters” to those of the lover of God: Teresa of Jesus. Love is one [same thing]. Whoever knows It, and is Its son, speaks the one and only language of love."

Valtorta :

Then, while I am correcting [the above Dictation], He tells me to put the first letter of the [pagan] virtues in lower case, not capitalized, as I had put them3, because, says—

JESUS :

“They are not the virtues as Grace infuses them into you, that is, the theological and cardinal [virtues]. [But they are] the elevated virtues of a being [which is] deprived of Grace—because of not belonging to My Church, and not enjoying My Sacrament—but [a being which is] morally holy, because of tending toward Truth, toward God.”

 

[onenow1]

That is a valid criticism of Protestantism, which I don’t disagree with. I am not in favor of the Protestant Reformation. I think they made a lot of things worse rather than better. Where things had gone wrong, what was needed to fix it was a Restoration, not a Reformation. Protestantism was not in fact a true reformation. It was a rebellion misnamed a reformation. A genuine reform movement could have achieved a lot of good, but Luther was after revenge and rebellion rather than a genuine reform. Mormonism is a different story and has nothing in common with Protestantism or the Reformation.

Wasn’t Joseph Smith a progeny of the reformation ? It seems kinda fishy to me he should use the Catholic Churches stance on private revelation, or is it just coincidence ?

God Bless
:compcoff:

 

[KathleenGee]

The corruption is based on the Catholic universal and apostolic priesthood.

And as Joseph Smith knew nothing of the nature and mission of the Catholic priesthood, or knew of ordinary priest lives and witness, he drew on the subculture that also created the Jehovah Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists.

 

[SteveVH]

Is this the “official” Mormon church or just members who say this. I’m a bit curious because on one of their discussion boards they are taking this a bit further saying that is was Christians that precipitated the “great apostasy” by actually killing the Apostles themselves.

You make a great point. It is often difficult to determine just what is the current belief. I think they would say it occurred upon the death of the last Apostle and steadily went down hill thereafter.

 

[SteveVH]

I agree with you 100%. If Martin Luther had stayed within the Church and truly fought for a true reformation things would be altogether different and much better than what they are today.

Also, you can say that the LDS is a sort of Reformation. If the “Great Apostacy” occured as claimed by the LDS, then the institution of the LDS is a Reform-ation.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I would venture to say that had the so called “Reformation” not occurred, neither would Mormonism have occurred. Joseph Smith was caught up in the Adventist movement, which could also be called the “Restoration” movement. I find it interesting that each of the churches that claims to be a restoration is unrecognizable when compared to the beliefs of the early Church. Their doctrines are all based upon so-called “new revelation” and prophecies (none of which have come true) from their founders which contradict the faith of the Apostles.

A restoration means restoring something to its original state. Mormon doctrine has restored nothing. Instead it has painted clown faces over a masterpiece.

 

[zerinus]

I would venture to say that had the so called “Reformation” not occurred, neither would Mormonism have occurred. Joseph Smith was caught up in the Adventist movement, which could also be called the “Restoration” movement.

The Adventist movement was started by William Miller who first shared publicly his belief in the coming Second Advent of Jesus Christ in 1833. Joseph Smith had already accomplished all of the following before William Miller had made public for the first time his Millenarist intentions:

Spring 1820 age: 14
Joseph receives the First Vision in the Sacred Grove in answer to a prayer about which church to join.

September 21-22 1823 age: 17
Joseph is visited five times by the angel Moroni, who reveals to Joseph information about the Book of Mormon and how to restore Christ’s gospel.

September 22, 1827 age: 21
Joseph receives the gold plates from the angel Moroni at the Hill Cumorah and begins translation of the Book of Mormon with the help of the Urim and Thummim.

May 15, 1829 age: 23
Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery receive the Aaronic Priesthood from John the Baptist and are baptized.

May or June 1829 age: 23
Joseph receives the Melchizedek Priesthood and is ordained an apostle by Peter, James, and John in Harmony, Pennsylvania.

June 1, 1829 age: 23
Joseph moves to Fayette, New York and stays with the Peter Whitmer family. Translation of the Book of Mormon continues.

June 11, 1829 age: 23
Joseph obtains a copyright for the Book of Mormon.

June 1829 age: 23
Joseph completes the translation of the Book of Mormon and the Three Witnesses and Eight Witnesses see the gold plates.

March 26, 1830 age: 24
The first printed copies of the Book of Mormon are made available.

April 6, 1830 age: 24
Joseph Smith officially organizes the Church in Fayette, New York.

April 11, 1830 age: 24
The first Sunday meeting of the Church is held.

June 9, 1830 age: 24
The first conference of the Church is held.

June 27-28, 1830 age: 24
Many want to be baptized in Colesville. Joseph visits them and they attempt baptisms, but a mob stops them. They try again the next day and are successful in baptizing thirteen people.

August 1830 age: 24
Joseph begins his [inspired] translation of the Bible.

December 1830- January 1831 age: 25
Joseph receives revelation that the members of the Church should gather in Ohio.

July 20, 1831 age: 25
Joseph receives revelation that the site of Zion is Independence, Missouri.

August 3, 1831 age: 25
Joseph dedicates a site for a temple in Missouri.

Late August 1831 age: 25
Joseph returns to Kirtland.

November 1, 1831 age: 25
Joseph has compiled all of the revelations he has received so far and the members of the Church decide to print them under the name “Book of Commandments.” This book is now known as the Doctrine and Covenants.

January 25, 1832 age: 26
Joseph becomes the president and prophet of the Mormon Church. He serves in this position for twelve years until his death.

February 16, 1832 age: 26
Joseph and Sidney Rigdon see a vision concerning life after death. This vision is now found in Doctrine and Covenants Section 76.

Joseph Smith had accomplished all of that (and more), before William Miller had even been heard of by anybody. So who do you think is more likely to have borrowed any ideas from whom?

I find it interesting that each of the churches that claims to be a restoration is unrecognizable when compared to the beliefs of the early Church. Their doctrines are all based upon so-called “new revelation” and prophecies (none of which have come true) from their founders which contradict the faith of the Apostles.

A restoration means restoring something to its original state. Mormon doctrine has restored nothing. Instead it has painted clown faces over a masterpiece.

Mormonism claims a restoration of the priesthood authority of the original church, the the “keys of the kingdom,” and an open canon of scripture. That is what the original church had, and that is what Mormonism has today.

 

[Javl]

I would venture to say that had the so called “Reformation” not occurred, neither would Mormonism have occurred. Joseph Smith was caught up in the Adventist movement, which could also be called the “Restoration” movement. I find it interesting that each of the churches that claims to be a restoration is unrecognizable when compared to the beliefs of the early Church. Their doctrines are all based upon so-called “new revelation” and prophecies (none of which have come true) from their founders which contradict the faith of the Apostles.

It is quite posible and probable that Mormonism may not exist today. There’s no arguing that point.

A restoration means restoring something to its original state. Mormon doctrine has restored nothing. Instead it has painted clown faces over a masterpiece.

Yes, but I mean that, according to the LDS, they have “restored” the “true Church”. It is then a restore-ation.

But now I would ask my Mormon friends that if the Catholic Church has apostacized, as you say, then how come our Loving God has blessed it down through the ages into the present times with very evident miraculous and unexplainable occurences? Wouldn’t a Church that has apostacized or abandoned God, as just about every non-Catholic says or has said, be ignored by God? Also how come that the Catholic Church seems to be the only one so blessed? And also, how come there are none of these occurences in the LDS Church if it’s supposed to be the true Church? Please keep in mind that all of these miracles have been thoroughly investigated and documented by many non-Catholics too.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[onenow1]

Mormonism claims a restoration of the priesthood authority of the original church, the the “keys of the kingdom,” and an open canon of scripture. That is what the original church had, and that is what Mormonism has today.

Please ! His promises of perpetuality.

John 14:16-17"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to dwell with you forever, the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you shall know him, because he will dwell with you, and be in you."

John 14:18"I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you."

Matthew 28:19-20"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all* nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all* that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you all* days, even unto the consummation of the world."

Here’s the problemas I see it, Catholics believe what Jesus has said! Mormonism asks us to believe the words of John Smith, and a new revelation.

The verse below is from earliest Christianty.

[Gal. 1:8], "Though an angel from heaven should deliver to you any other doctrine than that which you have received, let him be accursed…

God Bless

 

[Miriam1947]

Please ! His promises of perpetuality.

John 14:16-17"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to dwell with you forever, the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you shall know him, because he will dwell with you, and be in you."

John 14:18"I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you."

Matthew 28:19-20"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all* nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all* that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you all* days, even unto the consummation of the world."

Here’s the problemas I see it, Catholics believe what Jesus has said! Mormonism asks us to believe the words of John Smith, and a new revelation.

The verse below is from earliest Christianty.

[Gal. 1:8], "Though an angel from heaven should deliver to you any other doctrine than that which you have received, let him be accursed…

God Bless

Thanks, awesome.

 

[SteveVH]

The Adventist movement was started by William Miller who first shared publicly his belief in the coming Second Advent of Jesus Christ in 1833. Joseph Smith had already accomplished all of the following before William Miller had made public for the first time his Millenarist intentions:

From Wikipedia:
“In September 1822, Miller formally stated his conclusions in a twenty-point document, including article 15: “I believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ is near, even at the door, even within twenty-one years,–on or before 1843.”[9] Miller did not, however, begin his public lecturing until the first Sunday in August, 1831 in the town of Dresden.[10]”

He may not have started preaching publicly until 1831 but he had sure made a very public statement as early as 1822. Regardless, Joseph Smith’s testimony is Joseph Smith’s testimony. No one was with him in the grove and, if it was all made up, like I believe it was, and others conspired with him, he could have given any dates he wished as to various occurences.

 

[bluelake]

I’m a strong Catholic who loves researching other religions to learn about them, and recently I’ve been researching Mormonism just for fun. I think it’s interesting once you get into all the different denominations and what not, but I digress.

I found this on YouTube and thought it was interesting

This is from an account of Orson F. Whitney, who was an Apostle for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:
"Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquanted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue’s end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: 'You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, your are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestants haven’t a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days."

Here’s the link to the video: youtube.com/watch?v=vktEaSevdfE
The video is the same as above, but with nice music in the background.

I thought it was an interesting point. I would like to know what you guys here thought.

Though if I were a betting man, I’d put my money on the Catholic Church.

sal,
I get the impression that you are referring to Mormons as Protestants.
They are Mormons, period! They are not Christians as Protestants and Catholics are.
We as Christians are to worship Jesus Christ. He alone is mankinds Savior. Catholics, Protestants and others, if they know who Jesus is.
Mormons have a different Bible. They teach that it supercedes the Word of God, the Holy Bible.
Keep up with your studies about Mormons.

God bless you,
bluelake

 

[bluelake]

Don’t Protestants also believe in an apostasy of some sort? They left the Catholic Church because they say it no longer represents true Christianity, but there is no evidence to support this claim. The writings are there, and there is scriptural basis for the Church’s teachings.

stephe,
To teach that other Christian believers are not saved is a sin. See Mt.7:1-5
Jesus gave us “The Greatest Commandment” This can be found in Mt.22:36-39
Please read this and tell me what you think of it.

God bless,
bluelake

 

[bluelake]

Mormonism claims to be a Restoration of the original true Church of Christ, with prophets, Apostles, and modern day revelation and scripture; whereas Protestantism claims to be a Reformation of the Catholic Church. Mormonism claims to be a Revelation from God, whereas Protestantism claims to be nothing more than a human endeavor at correcting errors in the Catholic Church. If both claims were true, Mormonism by definition would supersede Protestantism.

Both Mormonism and Protestantism in fact claim that an apostasy of the early Christian Church took place; but their solutions to it are different. I like the Mormon solution better—obviously!

This is a very broad statement which carries no substance.
You haven’t made yourself clear about who said what, where or when.?

Mormons are not Christian, they are Mormons . ?They follow and teach the writings of one Joseph Smith.
Look him up.

God bless,
bluelake

 

[KathleenGee]

Joseph Smith perfected the church and called them saints when Christ couldn’t.

 

[JeanMichel]

sal,
I get the impression that you are referring to Mormons as Protestants.
They are Mormons, period! They are not Christians as Protestants and Catholics are.
We as Christians are to worship Jesus Christ. He alone is mankinds Savior. Catholics, Protestants and others, if they know who Jesus is.
Mormons have a different Bible. They teach that it supercedes the Word of God, the Holy Bible.
Keep up with your studies about Mormons.

God bless you,
bluelake

You seem very knowledgeable. Whom do you say that Mormons worship? Do they not teach that Jesus is the Christ, lived a perfect life, was crucified, rose the third day, resides at the right hand of the Father, and will return one day to save us? Do they not teach that he is the only way to heaven?

For centuries that was the definition of being a Christian. If one has become a member of the Holy Catholic Church then one understands the true nature of God and elucidated in the great Nicean Creed and the Trinitarian doctrine that makes it clear. Those who have become a member of THE Christian Church understood this doctrine and were Christian. All who stood outside of the Church were not Christian. Times change, definitions evolve, and understandings are arrived upon.

Some like to use Jesus as the one defining doctrine for being Christian. Many others prefer that belief in Jesus and an understanding of the Trinity also be present to be called Christian. While others draw even more strict standards to be a “true” Christian.

I believe in the One God, Father of all Truth, and I welcome anyone who acknowledges the Son as the Messiah into fellowship. Then is when we all begin to learn all truth and I will not castigate those who know less truth or more truth than me.

 

[zerinus]

From Wikipedia:
“In September 1822, Miller formally stated his conclusions in a twenty-point document, including article 15: “I believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ is near, even at the door, even within twenty-one years,–on or before 1843.”[9] Miller did not, however, begin his public lecturing until the first Sunday in August, 1831 in the town of Dresden.[10]”

He may not have started preaching publicly until 1831 but he had sure made a very public statement as early as 1822. Regardless, Joseph Smith’s testimony is Joseph Smith’s testimony. No one was with him in the grove and, if it was all made up, like I believe it was, and others conspired with him, he could have given any dates he wished as to various occurences.

My source of information had been this Wikipedia article with the following quote:

The Millerites were the followers of the teachings of William Miller who, in 1833, first shared publicly his belief in the coming Second Advent of Jesus Christ in roughly the year 1843.

But even taking your source as evidence, Joseph Smith’s theological development of his movement is so vastly different from William Miller’s (especially when taking the relevant timelines in consideration), that in the unlikely event that they had ever even heard of each other, there is no way that Joseph’s doctrine could have originated from Miller’s. Here is another Wikipedia article on the subject, containing the following quote:

Miller was a prosperous farmer, a Baptist layman and amateur student of the Bible, living in northern New York, in the region of that state which has come to be known as the Burned-over district. Through years of intensive study of prophetic symbolism of the prophecies of Daniel and using the year-day method of prophetic interpretation, Miller became convinced that Christ’s Second Coming was revealed in Bible prophecy. In September 1822, Miller formally stated his conclusions in a twenty-point document, including article 15, “I believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ is near, even at the door, even within twenty-one years,—on or before 1843.” This document however, remained private for many years.

Miller did eventually share his views—first, to a few friends privately, and later to some ministerial acquaintances. Initially he was disappointed at the lack of response from those he spoke to. “To my astonishment, I found very few who listened with any interest. Occasionally, one would see the force of the evidence, but the great majority passed it by as an idle tale.”

Miller states that he began his public lecturing in the town of Dresden, Yates County, New York, on “the first Sabbath in August 1833.” However, as Sylvester Bliss points out, “The printed article from which this is copied was written in 1845. By an examination of his correspondence, it appears that he must have begun to lecture in August 1831. So that this date is a mistake of the printer or an error in Mr. Miller’s memory.”

In 1832, Miller submitted a series of sixteen articles to the Vermont Telegraph—a Baptist paper. The first of these was published on May 15, and Miller writes of the public’s response, “I began to be flooded with letters of inquiry respecting my views, and visitors flocked to converse with me on the subject.” In 1834, unable to personally comply with many of the urgent requests for information and the invitations to travel and preach that he received, Miller published a synopsis of his teachings in a “little tract of 64 pages.” These he “…scattered, the most of them gratuitously, sending them in reply to letters of inquiry and to places which I could not visit.”

And note that in any of this there is no hint of any kind of “restoration” of any description whatever. How anybody can conclude that Miller and Joseph Smith had anything in common is beyond me.

 

[zerinus]

Please ! His promises of perpetuality.

John 14:16-17"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to dwell with you forever, the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you shall know him, because he will dwell with you, and be in you."

John 14:18"I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you."

Matthew 28:19-20"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all* nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all* that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you all* days, even unto the consummation of the world."

Here’s the problemas I see it, Catholics believe what Jesus has said! Mormonism asks us to believe the words of John Smith, and a new revelation.

The verse below is from earliest Christianty.

[Gal. 1:8], "Though an angel from heaven should deliver to you any other doctrine than that which you have received, let him be accursed…

God Bless

The problem I have is that I see you guys as preaching “another gospel,” whereas we preach the one Jesus and His Apostles taught in the New Testament.

 

[Javl]

No comment on, or answer to, my post No,225?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[onenow1]

The problem I have is that I see you guys as preaching “another gospel,” whereas we preach the one Jesus and His Apostles taught in the New Testament.

Let’s see now 1830’s With no substantial evidence to back up Mormonism ! Come to think of it, in my opinion no reasonable, commonsense argument exists. As many posts have extrapolated. If you have time heres a little bit to read. catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9107pcp.asp

God Bless