Either Catholics or Mormons have it right...

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This is a very broad statement which carries no substance.
You haven’t made yourself clear about who said what, where or when.?

Mormons are not Christian, they are Mormons . ?They follow and teach the writings of one Joseph Smith.
Look him up.

God bless,
bluelake
Negative.

To usurp God’s place and attempt to be the Teacher, whereas Christ alone has that authority, is a sin. The Mormon church makes itself a stumbling block to the little ones, yet even though God condemns this is in the strongest of words, the Mormon leaders are not afraid, because they do not fear God.

The Mormon church is a fraud, and leads souls to hell, for they have no authority save for that which they proclaim to themselves, and as Christ said and taught, Woe to those who bring about stumbling blocks to the little ones, for it would be better had they placed a stone around their necks, and cast themselves into the sea.

Tim.
 
Joseph Smith seems to have had a bad reaction to Catholic priestly celibacy.

A former Mormon shared with me that it was the Stone Campbell movement that Joseph, the Jehovah Witnesses, and the Seventh Day Adventists drew from.

Mormonism through Joseph Smith replaced universal, Catholic/Orthodox history with the revolt of the reformation…but then digressed to form a new religion based on male domination, polygamy, new legends and myths, white supremacy, and contempt/denial/labelling of all Christianity. This is not the work of the Holy Spirit in Salvation History.

Joseph puts himself above Christ to create a new church, and as a Catholic it is more carnal, and making one’s self a god…the great temptation that seduced Adam and Eve and Lucifer…as St. Michael said, ‘Who is like unto God!’
 
My source of information had been this Wikipedia article with the following quote:

The Millerites were the followers of the teachings of William Miller who, in 1833, first shared publicly his belief in the coming Second Advent of Jesus Christ in roughly the year 1843.

But even taking your source as evidence, Joseph Smith’s theological development of his movement is so vastly different from William Miller’s (especially when taking the relevant timelines in consideration), that in the unlikely event that they had ever even heard of each other, there is no way that Joseph’s doctrine could have originated from Miller’s. Here is another Wikipedia article on the subject, containing the following quote:

Miller was a prosperous farmer, a Baptist layman and amateur student of the Bible, living in northern New York, in the region of that state which has come to be known as the Burned-over district. Through years of intensive study of prophetic symbolism of the prophecies of Daniel and using the year-day method of prophetic interpretation, Miller became convinced that Christ’s Second Coming was revealed in Bible prophecy. In September 1822, Miller formally stated his conclusions in a twenty-point document, including article 15, “I believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ is near, even at the door, even within twenty-one years,—on or before 1843.” This document however, remained private for many years.

Miller did eventually share his views—first, to a few friends privately, and later to some ministerial acquaintances. Initially he was disappointed at the lack of response from those he spoke to. “To my astonishment, I found very few who listened with any interest. Occasionally, one would see the force of the evidence, but the great majority passed it by as an idle tale.”

Miller states that he began his public lecturing in the town of Dresden, Yates County, New York, on “the first Sabbath in August 1833.” However, as Sylvester Bliss points out, “The printed article from which this is copied was written in 1845. By an examination of his correspondence, it appears that he must have begun to lecture in August 1831. So that this date is a mistake of the printer or an error in Mr. Miller’s memory.”

In 1832, Miller submitted a series of sixteen articles to the Vermont Telegraph—a Baptist paper. The first of these was published on May 15, and Miller writes of the public’s response, “I began to be flooded with letters of inquiry respecting my views, and visitors flocked to converse with me on the subject.” In 1834, unable to personally comply with many of the urgent requests for information and the invitations to travel and preach that he received, Miller published a synopsis of his teachings in a “little tract of 64 pages.” These he “…scattered, the most of them gratuitously, sending them in reply to letters of inquiry and to places which I could not visit.”

And note that in any of this there is no hint of any kind of “restoration” of any description whatever. How anybody can conclude that Miller and Joseph Smith had anything in common is beyond me.
I won’t belabor the point with you zerinus. My point is that the Adventists groups claimed new revelation through prophecy just as the Mormons and each time they prophesied it was proven false. Making predictions based upon “prophecy” was common among the Adventist groups, the JW’s and the Mormons. Joseph Smith was also influenced by the Masons, even though Masonry was well established. I don’t care who came first, I am speaking of the influence they had on Mormon doctrine.
 
The source and life giver of the Catholic Church is Jesus Christ, and HIs comforter, the Holy Spirit filled the Apostles at Pentecost…and taught them many things…

All that deflected out from unforgiveness towards corrupt clergy was a man made movement.

I wish we could all be one again in the Lord, and in doing so, become a great witness to the world. There is need for greater parish work, and it is waiting to be filled by our separated brethren. The Catholic Church needs all Christians who believe in Jesus Christ as God, Messiah, and Redeemer.
 
From the Orson Whitney quote in the first post:

" …then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary …"

Really? A loathsome, character-defective, perpetually unemployed con-man, womanizer and magic man was necessary?

Mormons are found of saying that “prophets don’t have to be perfect” - personally, I wouldn’t have let Mr. Smith on the premises to attend to the septic tank.
 
Let’s see now 1830’s With no substantial evidence to back up Mormonism ! Come to think of it, in my opinion no reasonable, commonsense argument exists. As many posts have extrapolated. If you have time heres a little bit to read. catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9107pcp.asp

God Bless
🙂
I read it and find it to be truthful. You can see the fruit here in Logan Utah when Mormon Bishops send those that need help but are not Mormon to the Catholic Church. It does not matter what faith they are, they get help.

Same at the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake. The homeless are sent up to the Catholic Cathedral. When I visit the Cathedral I expect to see the homeless taking refuge. It makes my visit better. Although some have mental problems and this can be dangerous I accept this out of love. This is the fruit found in the Catholic faith among many others.
P.S
I myself was once homeless and I found refuge in a Blessed Sacrament Chapel in Florida.
My prayers were answered because of this precious time spent with God.
 
As to wanting to be referred to as Christians
I see the same sin in those that choose to be gay, wanting to be received into the Sacrament of Marriage, marriage through the Church, just as a man and women is received.

I feel that in my heart the Mormon Church wanting to be received as a Christian church is worse because of the belief in more than one God. I see this as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Although some are innocent to it others are not. Baptizing the innocent because they did not have proper instruction as to who God is, is more about the numbers gained, more about pride than truth in Christ Jesus. But we are called as Catholics to love both the innocent and the not so innocent, because the spark of true love can convert one to Christ, this true love.
 
Same at the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake. The homeless are sent up to the Catholic Cathedral. When I visit the Cathedral I expect to see the homeless taking refuge. It makes my visit better. Although some have mental problems and this can be dangerous I accept this out of love. This is the fruit found in the Catholic faith among many others.
This can be heartbreaking, as I walk into Mass and see the people out begging in front of the Cathedral, or the people who have just received food from the Good Samaritan program that is next door. Some of them are so obviously, entirely, destitute.

It is also something unique to see these same people sitting with us in Mass. 🙂 We get to know them, as people who are a part of our parish, even if it is for just a little while.

Our baptismal font is at the back of the church. At Easter Vigil a couple of years ago, there was a homeless man sitting in a pew in front of the people who were about to be baptized. I was a sponsor, and he was sitting in front of me and I could smell alcohol very strong coming from him. It was obvious that he was very drunk.

As the liturgy led up to baptism he was getting so excited. He was crying, taking off his shoes and socks, rolling his pants up, saying he wanted to be baptized. I was thinking he was just going to jump right into the font. He began to wander around the font hoping someone would baptize him, including walking up to the Bishop who was praying. One of our ushers kindly guided him back to where he was sitting and let him know he would not be getting baptized that night. He sat there quietly and eventually put his shoes and socks back on.
 
PARKER/ZERINUS:

Why can’t I get an answer to my post #225? I am waiting. Thank you.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
It is quite posible and probable that Mormonism may not exist today. There’s no arguing that point.

Yes, but I mean that, according to the LDS, they have “restored” the “true Church”. It is then a restore-ation.

But now I would ask my Mormon friends that if the Catholic Church has apostacized, as you say, then how come our Loving God has blessed it down through the ages into the present times with very evident miraculous and unexplainable occurences? Wouldn’t a Church that has apostacized or abandoned God, as just about every non-Catholic says or has said, be ignored by God? Also how come that the Catholic Church seems to be the only one so blessed? And also, how come there are none of these occurences in the LDS Church if it’s supposed to be the true Church? Please keep in mind that all of these miracles have been thoroughly investigated and documented by many non-Catholics too.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
There simply was no apostasy and so there is no real answer except a nebulous one .:eek:

Peace
:coffee:
 
There simply was no apostasy and so there is no real answer except a nebulous one .:eek:

Peace
:coffee:
It is a circular answer. The evidence for a “great apostasy” is the Mormon church. The evidence for the Mormon church is the “great apostasy”.

So the answer is, “because there was a great apostasy”…all evidence to the contrary MUST be ignored, otherwise, Mormonism falls.
 
It is a circular answer. The evidence for a “great apostasy” is the Mormon church. The evidence for the Mormon church is the “great apostasy”.

So the answer is, “because there was a great apostasy”…all evidence to the contrary MUST be ignored, otherwise, Mormonism falls.
The guest on the Journey Home today will be a Mormon convert. I wonder if your Mormon brethen here will care to watch it.
 
It is a circular answer. The evidence for a “great apostasy” is the Mormon church. The evidence for the Mormon church is the “great apostasy”.

So the answer is, “because there was a great apostasy”…all evidence to the contrary MUST be ignored, otherwise, Mormonism falls.
That seems to be it in a nut shell. If there was no apostasy then Joseph Smith wouldn’t have been given new revelation. Whether he did or not is not a question. The Holy Spirit has testified that it is true and one knows that for certain because of interior feelings. The entire faith rests on things that can neither be proven nor dis-proven, anymore than you could prove or disprove that I was visited by Jesus last night and he told me to start my own church. Prove that he didn’t visit me.

I asked a question (don’t remember the thread) that was never answered. If one were trying to convict the Mormon church of being the restoration of the true Church, would there be enough evidence to find it guilty? Not even close.
 
I asked a question (don’t remember the thread) that was never answered. If one were trying to convict the Mormon church of being the restoration of the true Church, would there be enough evidence to find it guilty? Not even close.
The evidence outside of Mormonism existed once but it no longer does, because there was a great apostasy. The evidence of this loss is the Mormon church. The evidence that convicts the Mormon church of being a restoration of the true Church is the Mormon church.
 
PARKER/ZERINUS:

Why can’t I get an answer to my post #225? I am waiting. Thank you.

Shalom Aleichem
JAVL,
Signs, wonders, and “miracles” are warned against as much as they are associated with the worship of the God of Israel. So that is definitely an area that needs to be examined with caution if one is trying to “hang their hat” on those kinds of “evidences”. Moses taught against doing that. (Deuteronomy 13:1-3)

(The reason I hadn’t answered, is that I realize this is a more sensitive and somewhat emotional area than I want to have a conversation about because when the emotions kick in, there is little “light” or “uplift” that can be gleaned from the conversation.) We certainly have plenty of quiet miraculous events, but they are not a major focus in sermons because that would be the wrong focus, particularly for children who need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and not think they are supposed to have some miracle in their life to define that relationship. Nor do I need to share any of those in this forum, since my interest is in encouraging people in getting their own personal relationship with the Savior–let them belong to whichever church suits their desires, they can still seek a genuine personal relationship with Him.
 
JAVL,
Signs, wonders, and “miracles” are warned against as much as they are associated with the worship of the God of Israel. So that is definitely an area that needs to be examined with caution if one is trying to “hang their hat” on those kinds of “evidences”. Moses taught against doing that. (Deuteronomy 13:1-3)

(The reason I hadn’t answered, is that I realize this is a more sensitive and somewhat emotional area than I want to have a conversation about because when the emotions kick in, there is little “light” or “uplift” that can be gleaned from the conversation.) We certainly have plenty of quiet miraculous events, but they are not a major focus in sermons because that would be the wrong focus, particularly for children who need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and not think they are supposed to have some miracle in their life to define that relationship. Nor do I need to share any of those in this forum, since my interest is in encouraging people in getting their own personal relationship with the Savior–let them belong to whichever church suits their desires, they can still seek a genuine personal relationship with Him.
Jesus and the Apostles performed signs and wonders. There is nothing wrong with this in the slightest. The danger is when that is all we are looking for, rather than seeking God. The signs and wonders are evidence of God’s hand in the situation and the history of the Catholic Church is replete with this evidence.
 
The guest on the Journey Home today will be a Mormon convert. I wonder if your Mormon brethen here will care to watch it.
I missed the detailed part about his confession, I think it was to a bishop ??? It seemed to be key to his conversion ?

Peace
🙂
 
JAVL,
Signs, wonders, and “miracles” are warned against as much as they are associated with the worship of the God of Israel. So that is definitely an area that needs to be examined with caution if one is trying to “hang their hat” on those kinds of “evidences”. Moses taught against doing that. (Deuteronomy 13:1-3)

(The reason I hadn’t answered, is that I realize this is a more sensitive and somewhat emotional area than I want to have a conversation about because when the emotions kick in, there is little “light” or “uplift” that can be gleaned from the conversation.) We certainly have plenty of quiet miraculous events, but they are not a major focus in sermons because that would be the wrong focus, particularly for children who need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and not think they are supposed to have some miracle in their life to define that relationship. Nor do I need to share any of those in this forum, since my interest is in encouraging people in getting their own personal relationship with the Savior–let them belong to whichever church suits their desires, they can still seek a genuine personal relationship with Him.
Parker;

Thank you for answering, I appreciate it.

The “miracles” and supernatural occurances that Moses warns against are those that seem to be from God but are from Satan. If you understand the passages you will see what I mean. There is a big difference in occurances; one tries to lead you away from God and the other leads you towards Him with praise and worship. Any true believer knows the difference.

I’m sorry, but I do not hold with your explanation. If any miracle has/had occured in the LDS Church I am certain that it would be broadcast worldwide. It would not only great PR for the LDS but would show that the LDS claim of the “Great Apostacy” would be true and uphold the integrity of Joseph Smith and the reality and truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. It would be an indication that God approves of and blesses the LDS. Of course none of this has happened and will never happen since the Catholic Church is the one and only true Church founded by Jesus Christ approximately 2000 years ago, and it has NEVER apostacized. Jesus ( God ) has protected and stayed with His Church as He promised and continues to bless it with these miraculous supernatural occurances.

Whenever and wherever these miracles occur they are always the subjects of sermons in all Christian Churches ( Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant ). Recent occurances have proven this. Shalom,

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
If the church did become apostate, and it was re-established in the latter days, how can we be sure that it will not become apostate again? If God allowed it once, maybe He will allow it again.

In fact, how do we know that it isn’t already is apostate again?

You can see how the idea of apostasy opens up a whole bucket of worms.
 
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