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rmcmullan
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I’m not sure exactly how to answer that. In this context, I believe it is referring to Christ as the Lamb of God in the sense that he is the Redeemer and wrought the great and everlasting sacrifice.
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Todd520
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Well said. However, I think the church of the devil has actually been named recently. Here is one of their promo videos - ME Church
Sadly, I hear they have a phenominal conversion rate.
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Todd520
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Jerusha, are you just here to bash on LDS?
Or are you suggesting we only allow members that already meet a test for living a christlike life?
You already know the purpose of any Christian church is take in the spiritually unwashed and teach them the message of Christ. Not all members will get the message or change their ways, but we need to keep trying.
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Jerusha
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Jim_Dandy
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The “Great Apostasy” never happened. The idea is preposterous, considering the promise of Jesus Christ to remain with His Apostles, the leaders of His Church, ALWAYS. That obviously means that He committed to be with the Apostles and the successors to the Apostles FOREVER, since he added: TO THE END OF THE WORLD (KJV) or TO THE END OF THE AGE (RSV) (Matthew 28:20).
Jesus also promised that “the gates of hell” (KJV) or “the powers of death” (RSV) would not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18-19).
Mormons and Protestants call Jesus a prevaricator with their invented claims of apostasy. And, they furthermore say the Holy Spirit didn’t do His job – Jesus also promised that the Holy Spirit would be with the Apostles, the leaders of His Church, and would guide them to all truth ALWAYS (John 14:16-18, 14:26; 15:26, 16:7-15). They infer that Jesus lied about that as well.
The Protestant claim that they “restored” the original doctrine of the Apostles, and the Mormon claim to be the “restored” true church are both untrue. It’s all in the historical record.
Peace be with y’all, Jim Dandy
ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
Jesus also promised that “the gates of hell” (KJV) or “the powers of death” (RSV) would not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18-19).
Mormons and Protestants call Jesus a prevaricator with their invented claims of apostasy. And, they furthermore say the Holy Spirit didn’t do His job – Jesus also promised that the Holy Spirit would be with the Apostles, the leaders of His Church, and would guide them to all truth ALWAYS (John 14:16-18, 14:26; 15:26, 16:7-15). They infer that Jesus lied about that as well.
The Protestant claim that they “restored” the original doctrine of the Apostles, and the Mormon claim to be the “restored” true church are both untrue. It’s all in the historical record.
Peace be with y’all, Jim Dandy
ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
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Todd520
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Jim you know your argument is flawed.
The growth of Christian denominations completely undermines your point.
God would not allow it if your understanding of “his Church” was accurate.
However, if you alter your interpretation and accept **The Gospel **as what he left,
what would prevail against the gates of hell,
everything looks much brighter.
The growth of Christian denominations completely undermines your point.
God would not allow it if your understanding of “his Church” was accurate.
However, if you alter your interpretation and accept **The Gospel **as what he left,
what would prevail against the gates of hell,
everything looks much brighter.
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SteveVH
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Are you saying that the growth of Christian denominations is evidence that the Catholic Church is not the one, true Church of God. What do you mean God would not allow it? He allows a lot of things, like suffering and evil. He isn’t here to stop people from exercising their free will. Why would He allow Islam or Buddahism? If I understand you, it is your logic that is flawed. It is quite possible that I am misunderstanding you. Please clarify.
What?
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Javl
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Todd;
It seems like you keep missing the boat. I don’t know where or how you get your information but it is exactly like that of the Jehovahs Witnesses. You had better think your answers and comments through, thoroughly, before you place them here in this thread.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom haMeshiach
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Todd520
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Jabl,Todd;
It seems like you keep missing the boat. I don’t know where or how you get your information but it is exactly like that of the Jehovahs Witnesses. You had better think your answers and comments through, thoroughly, before you place them here in this thread.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom haMeshiach
In my response, I repsent an argument that many support. You have the right to reply with your supported opinion.
However, you seem to foucs on insulting the poster rather than debating the topic, so I urge you to not reply, if you won’t contribute.
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Jim_Dandy
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Mormons now deny that it was the Catholic Church Smith attacked and claim it was “all churches.” But there was only one Church for a thousand years, two for the next 500 years, followed by thousands of Protestant denominations beginning in the 16th century. Joseph Smith’s language was precise: he described the Church as Martin Luther did – calling her “the whore.”
Jim Dandy
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Javl
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If telling the truth is insulting, then so be it. It seems that when I comment with the truth it is ignored and/or the subject is changed. This is a very disconcerting tactic that the LDS uses. I guess that the truth always hurts, but I have no alternative but to present and tell it always.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom haMeshiach
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Jim_Dandy
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Hi rmcmullan,
I wrote: “There’s more, but that’s plenty, plenty, to illustrate the point.”
Indeed, I could have quoted more. Joseph Smith’s words you quoted were about the church he himself founded – the LDS church – and the one Jesus Christ founded – the Catholic Church. Guess which one he called the “Church of the Devil”?
Mormonism has reinterpreted its “scriptures” and changed its doctrines to present itself as more of a mainline “Christian” organization to make the religion more acceptable to Catholics and other Christians. The Catholic Church is not a sect or a denomination. She is the one Church from whom all “sects” or “denominations” originate. She is the Mother Church of all Christendom. But the Cathollic Church does not regard the LDS as Christian, and rightly so. Strike one: Christians are monotheists; Mormons are polytheists or henotheists.
Peace to all, Jim Dandy
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KathleenGee
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After a certain point, you have to allow people to use reason and their brains…
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rmcmullan
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I’m sticking with the two churches, the church of the devil and the church of God. Anything else you might want to add onto that is okay by me but I like it the way it stands. That passage reminds me somewhat of the one from the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus teaches you can’t serve two masters.
I have always had trouble resolving the Catholic Church’s position on its various divisions. I know that you accept most church’s baptism and at one time even accepted Mormon baptism. And that there are many schisms or whatever you call them within the church, e.g Greek Orthodox. But there are also many non-Christians who will some day come before the judgement bar of Christ. So I’m also going to stick to my position that this scripture and the other passages you quoted are not about any particular church, Catholic, East Orthodox, Protestant or any others.
The only church group that seems to be specifically mention in the Nephi chapters of the Book of Mormon are Protestants and Jews. The very chapters you quoted (although I think you left out the pertinent parts) refer to the Gentiles humbling themselves before the Lord in the new land (of America) and having the Bible. But having trouble understanding the Bible and they many interpretations offered of it. And then it talks about the BoM coming forth as a second witness, testifying and clarifying the first witness of Christ (the Bible.)
I think your main difference with the Mormons is your rejection of what we call the Apostacy. We claim that the early church was attacked and to a degree overcome. This is an essential difference on the Apostolic Succession and there’s no coming together on this point. But who else could you blame the Apostacy and martyrdom of all the early saints and Apostles except on the church of the devil? That’s where I think you made your mistake, you are confusing the church of the devil that martyred the Apostles and saints with the Catholic church. And only because you don’t accept the Apostacy.
I have always had trouble resolving the Catholic Church’s position on its various divisions. I know that you accept most church’s baptism and at one time even accepted Mormon baptism. And that there are many schisms or whatever you call them within the church, e.g Greek Orthodox. But there are also many non-Christians who will some day come before the judgement bar of Christ. So I’m also going to stick to my position that this scripture and the other passages you quoted are not about any particular church, Catholic, East Orthodox, Protestant or any others.
The only church group that seems to be specifically mention in the Nephi chapters of the Book of Mormon are Protestants and Jews. The very chapters you quoted (although I think you left out the pertinent parts) refer to the Gentiles humbling themselves before the Lord in the new land (of America) and having the Bible. But having trouble understanding the Bible and they many interpretations offered of it. And then it talks about the BoM coming forth as a second witness, testifying and clarifying the first witness of Christ (the Bible.)
I think your main difference with the Mormons is your rejection of what we call the Apostacy. We claim that the early church was attacked and to a degree overcome. This is an essential difference on the Apostolic Succession and there’s no coming together on this point. But who else could you blame the Apostacy and martyrdom of all the early saints and Apostles except on the church of the devil? That’s where I think you made your mistake, you are confusing the church of the devil that martyred the Apostles and saints with the Catholic church. And only because you don’t accept the Apostacy.
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Jim_Dandy
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Your theory of “spiritual” churches is a re-interpretation of original Mormon doctrine… Joseph Smith attacked the Catholic Church when he founded the LDS in 1830. Anti-Catholicism was rampant in NY at the time. The ongoing existence of the ancient Church disproves Smith’s “apostasy” allegation. There was only one Church – the Catholic Church – when Mormonism alleges that the “Great Apostasy” occurred. Therefore, you don’t have to be a genius to know the alleged apostate church is the Catholic Church. It’s the only possibility.
History shows that the Catholic Church was dealing with both harsh persecution and heresy in the early centuries of her existence. She held many regional councils to deal with the heresies, all part of the historical record. No signs of weakness. It’s strange, dontchathink, that the beliefs of the Mormons were unheard of in the early Church? If it was “restored,” there ought to be some similarity – but there’s none.
Under the Mormon theory, the Church was “apostate” when she formed the Bible in A.D. 382, 393, 397, 419. Smith wrote in the Book of Mormon that the Catholic Church desecrated the Bible. If he’s right, the Bible can’t be trusted. In fact, Joseph Smith rewrote parts of the King James Version to make it conform to Mormonism.
There are no divisions in the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church has never said Mormon baptism was acceptable. The Church accepts all Christian baptisms, but not those performed by Mormans or JWs.
The Orthodox Churches, who are in schism, were part of the Catholic Church until 1054, so they also would be ‘apostate’ by the Mormon theory. Since all Protestant ecclesial bodies, who are in heresy, split from the Catholic Church or are splinters of those who split. I suppose they are ‘apostate’ too. Mormonism is outside Christianity.
Okay. Believe what you wish. But that doesn’t make it true.
Where are Protestants mentioned?
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Sorry, but the Apostles and His Church were the first witnesses of Christ. The Bible per se did not exist until the end of the fourth century and beginning of the fifth when it was compiled by the Catholic Church, consisting of 27 of her own writings and the 46 writings she inherited from Jesus and the Apostles… How could “Gentiles have had the Bible in the new land of America” in 600 B.C. when it didn’t exist – in fact, half of it hadn’t even been written?
The DNA of American Indians has no trace of semetic origins and proves beyond any doubt that they are of mongoloid descent. And there is zero archeological evidence of the Mormon claims. Anyone who examines Mormonism objectively and knows the scientific and historical facts will reject it. It cannot be true.
Yes, the incomplete KJV version of the Bible was “clarified” - i.e., parts of it were rewritten by Joseph Smith because it conflicted with his new doctrines.
There is no historical, monumental, archaeological, artistic, or literary evidence that Christ’s Church ever apostasized. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Therefore it never needed to be “restored” as Smith claimed. Jesus said to the Apostles, “I am with you ALWAYS, until the end of the world” (Mt 28:20 KJV}. And Jesus sent the Spirit to guide the Apostles and their successors and to lead them to all truth ALWAYS.(Jn 14:16-18; 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-15 RSV). Believe Christ, who is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, God Himself, or believe Joseph Smith.
Peace be with you, Jim Dandy
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Miriam1947
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There is a website I have been reading this week.
exmormon.org/
The saddest thing is that when these Mormons leave Mormonism, they often become atheists or agnostics. If they do go to church they look for a Unitarian one. (I have read of only one who became Catholic) They cannot believe in any church rules any more because when they realized that Mormonism is a cult and that they had been lied to, they lost all trust.
They also lose their friends and families. All the relationships they have had throughout their lives are -for many if not most of them- gone.
They still would not go back.
exmormon.org/
The saddest thing is that when these Mormons leave Mormonism, they often become atheists or agnostics. If they do go to church they look for a Unitarian one. (I have read of only one who became Catholic) They cannot believe in any church rules any more because when they realized that Mormonism is a cult and that they had been lied to, they lost all trust.
They also lose their friends and families. All the relationships they have had throughout their lives are -for many if not most of them- gone.
They still would not go back.
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BlueShadow123
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Excuse my ignorance on this question, but don’t mormons believe in different levels of heaven or something like that?
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Miriam1947
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leaderu.com/offices/michaeldavis/docs/mormonism/definitions.html
HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three “degrees of glory”):
Telestial - where unbelievers go
Terrestrial - for religious people who aren’t Mormons and for Mormons who have not met the requirements of the
Celestial - for Mormons who have kept ALL of the laws and ordinances of their church. What will the celestial heaven (kingdom) supposedly be like for a good Mormon? He will be a god, he will rule over a planet with his wives and spirit children.
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KathleenGee
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Hi Miriam,
Can you please share more about your faith experience?
I am happy to hear Mr McMullen speak truthfully about his beliefs…because there are Mormons who are and have been told, they are trying to make Mormonism appear acceptable.
Many of us here already respect and accept the Mormons as great and wonderful human beings. But it is the belief system.
The Great Apostasy would come in the Latter Times…of which we are in, but we do not know what will transpire…and I also believe we are called to pray and do penance to mitigate the terrors of its consequences…the great falling away from the True Faith of Jesus Christ…apostolic, universal—intended for every human being.
Can you please share more about your faith experience?
I am happy to hear Mr McMullen speak truthfully about his beliefs…because there are Mormons who are and have been told, they are trying to make Mormonism appear acceptable.
Many of us here already respect and accept the Mormons as great and wonderful human beings. But it is the belief system.
The Great Apostasy would come in the Latter Times…of which we are in, but we do not know what will transpire…and I also believe we are called to pray and do penance to mitigate the terrors of its consequences…the great falling away from the True Faith of Jesus Christ…apostolic, universal—intended for every human being.
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Miriam1947
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Kathleen, please don’t get the wrong idea. I am a convert to Catholicism but not from Mormonism. i came from Presbyterianism with many stops along the way. I never formerly joined any church until I became Catholic.
I work with Mormons and have lived in Mormon country. It is just a subject that interests me and so I have been doing a bit of reading on the religion.
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