B
BlueShadow123
Guest
And where did the mormons get this from?
- Status
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
To be clear, for many years the majority of former LDS converting to Catholicism came out of Utah. In Utah, the Bishops for as long as they have been there performed conditional baptisms for these converts. A conditional baptism is done when it is known that the person was at one time baptized, but it is not known if the baptism was valid.
In the 1990’s, more LDS were coming into the Church from areas outside of Utah. A Bishop in Montana asked the advice of the Bishop in Utah as to what to do regarding baptism of former Mormons. He wasn’t satisfied with the answer of conditional baptism and so asked the Roman Curia to rule on the matter.
Ten years later, the ruling made by the Curia is that Mormon baptisms are not valid. The matter was clarified for all Bishops, who now baptize converts coming from Mormonism as non-Christians in need a baptism.
So no, there was never a ruling by the Church that Mormon baptisms are valid.
There is also the fact that people like myself, who had a Mormon baptism, understood clearly the difference in doctrines, and asked to be baptized. I’ve met many form Mormon converts, and all had this desire. I don’t know of any person with a Trinitarian baptism who has asked to be baptized again, because they know their baptism is valid. We former Mormons know that ours was not.
For myself, the night I was baptized ranks up there in one of those events in life that has the importance and memorable as the night my daughter was born. It was one of the most joyous nights of my life that I will never forget.
M
Miriam1947
Guest
S
Senecus
Guest
One of the best resources I’ve seen, regarding the history and teachings of Mormonism, can be found at this channel on YouTube:
youtube.com/user/aaronshaf2006#p/u/3/obgzDh0dX70
Many of the personal testimonies of former LDS members are enlightening. I very much respect the integrity and courage of Sandra Tanner, a direct descendant of Brigham Young. Her two “fireside videos” show a a unique insiders perspective about the “Church” outsiders cannot fathom.
Also, her lecture/video about the “Early Years” of Mormonism is very telling . . . it starts off rather dry & slow, but stick with it especially when she relates how great a role “folk-magic” had with the Smith family, and many of their friends, associates etc.
These videos, and related resources speak for themselves, and are well worth the time of current LDS members to watch (in entirety). It will take courage, however, to do so.
youtube.com/user/aaronshaf2006#p/u/3/obgzDh0dX70
Many of the personal testimonies of former LDS members are enlightening. I very much respect the integrity and courage of Sandra Tanner, a direct descendant of Brigham Young. Her two “fireside videos” show a a unique insiders perspective about the “Church” outsiders cannot fathom.
Also, her lecture/video about the “Early Years” of Mormonism is very telling . . . it starts off rather dry & slow, but stick with it especially when she relates how great a role “folk-magic” had with the Smith family, and many of their friends, associates etc.
These videos, and related resources speak for themselves, and are well worth the time of current LDS members to watch (in entirety). It will take courage, however, to do so.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Thanks, Miriam…I met a Lutheran woman who lived in Utah, and they had to get away for the sake of their teenagers from being pulled into it…they said the Mormon boys really know how to squire young girls, and this was also a great concern my father had for my daughters if we had moved to SLC. I talked to a Catholic priest and he said we would definitely be sought to be brought into their beliefs…so we did not move there.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
We know there was no apostasy until the breakup beginning within Christianity that occurred in Europe and is still fragmenting up to today.
When Mormons believe in the Great Apostasy happening at the beginning of Christianity…and only 30 years or so after the death of Christ…inspite of all the documentation and reference and the constancy of faith, it shows just that, they have no concept of early Christian salvation history…
Theirs is a different construct and it also infers why their baptisms are not valid. I just find it mind boggling they can believe such things…and that the truth existed again…Joseph Smith the prophet next to Christ…who contradicted Christ…
Joseph Smith was into divinization, using a stick to discover where water was located, a charlatan…he was a seducer of women…it behooves me why Mormons cannot see the difference between himself and Christ…Smith himself part of the growing Apostasy within Christianity.
When Mormons believe in the Great Apostasy happening at the beginning of Christianity…and only 30 years or so after the death of Christ…inspite of all the documentation and reference and the constancy of faith, it shows just that, they have no concept of early Christian salvation history…
Theirs is a different construct and it also infers why their baptisms are not valid. I just find it mind boggling they can believe such things…and that the truth existed again…Joseph Smith the prophet next to Christ…who contradicted Christ…
Joseph Smith was into divinization, using a stick to discover where water was located, a charlatan…he was a seducer of women…it behooves me why Mormons cannot see the difference between himself and Christ…Smith himself part of the growing Apostasy within Christianity.
J
JeanMichel
Guest
Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
It is really not productive to go back some 150 years to find quotes made by Mormon leaders; what do you think we might find if we went back the same period to find statements about Jews and Protestants? What are they saying today? I am not aware of the Mormon church making a habit of attacking other churches as cults, or being non-Christian, or anything else. Yes, they firmly think they are a restoration of the true gospel and that an apostasy occurred, but that, at least to me, is not degrading. It is simply a statement of belief as to why their church is of value today in the world.
Proclaiming truth is a noble thing to do. To do anything that is against the Holy Spirit is not noble regardless of who is doing it. The Holy Spirit does not work in a degrading manner; the Spirit operates first and foremost in love, in patience, and in hope. Proclaim truth, clarify truth, demonstrate truth, but do not seek to negatively sensationalize the beliefs of others. It rubs me so completely wrong.
Yes, I would say that I have a rather high understanding of Mormonism. I have a very difficult time ignoring the advice of scripture that we will know them by their fruit and that a evil vine does not bring forth good fruit. This we are taught to use to identify all people who follow Christ.
For me, I am not concerned that everyone have a perfect understanding of Christ today. I want to find those who do not know Christ and share Him with them. With those who already know Christ, I choose to rejoice in His Spirit with them. We each will gain a perfect understanding of Him after this world and I suspect we will all be corrected in our own false or incomplete beliefs. Possessing an incomplete understanding of Christ is the very definition of living by faith; why should you seek to punish, degrade those that seek Christ yet have an unclear understanding?
J
JeanMichel
Guest
This is another example of mis-characterization or character assassination, In my readings on Smith, I found that he stated, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” Where does polygamy play in that? What does appendage mean to you? It would appear that Jesus Christ is the center of their religion according to Smith.
Oh, as far as polygamy, have you read any of the Old Testament? Mormons are correct in stating that even the greatest prophets practiced polygamy. This is a non-issue. It may be a topic to sensationalize and scandalize to the ignorant, but anyone that knows the Bible must conclude God doesn’t really care. If He did, the prophets would not have been prophets.
Stephen168
New member
Jim was showing the truth of the foundation of Mormonism. The founders of Mormonism should rub you the wrong the way. To ignore that foundation is not seeking the truth. I find it interesting you choose to attack people who are not only seeking Christ but also seek the truth in all things. You have even attacked the truth by called those who claim the truth liars, but when asked to support your claim, you fell silent.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
Jean Michell, Smith outright lied about his polygamous affairs. He denied them in public, emphatically stating he was married one time. At the time of this statement he had been married at least 33 times. A few of those women were already married to other men.
His first wife Emma was opposed to these “marriages”. You can read in the Mormon D&C 132 what Smith had to say to her about that.
Because Smith lied about the secret lifestyle he was living, there are no public sermons from him regarding polygamy. After his death, the Mormon church went through a succession crisis. The polygamists followed Brigham Young, and that is the branch of Mormonism that you’ll find the most information in regards to polygamy. All the other Mormon branches that split off at that time refused the practice of polygamy. Emma Smith denied (lied) to her death that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
Polygamy is not a “non-issue”. Jesus clearly taught that marriage is between one man and one woman, “as it was in the beginning”. The Mormon view on OT polygamy does not take into account the teachings of Jesus, which is who Christians follow. They deny these teachings of Jesus, entirely. Explaining them away and/or ignoring them altogether.
The Mormon view is that polygamy is the divine order of marriage. They believe their god is married, and Young taught it was to multiple wives.
This is of course nonsense at best, blasphemy at the worst.
His first wife Emma was opposed to these “marriages”. You can read in the Mormon D&C 132 what Smith had to say to her about that.
Because Smith lied about the secret lifestyle he was living, there are no public sermons from him regarding polygamy. After his death, the Mormon church went through a succession crisis. The polygamists followed Brigham Young, and that is the branch of Mormonism that you’ll find the most information in regards to polygamy. All the other Mormon branches that split off at that time refused the practice of polygamy. Emma Smith denied (lied) to her death that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
Polygamy is not a “non-issue”. Jesus clearly taught that marriage is between one man and one woman, “as it was in the beginning”. The Mormon view on OT polygamy does not take into account the teachings of Jesus, which is who Christians follow. They deny these teachings of Jesus, entirely. Explaining them away and/or ignoring them altogether.
The Mormon view is that polygamy is the divine order of marriage. They believe their god is married, and Young taught it was to multiple wives.
This is of course nonsense at best, blasphemy at the worst.
Stephen168
New member
This is an issue because it was never taught or practiced by Christ and the Apostles. A Christian has not and would not practice polygamy. A person seeking the truth would question a religion invented in 19th century American which claims to be a restored Christian Church. Polygamy is an example of why that claim is false.
L
LDSChristian
Guest
I find it hilarious when people say “the founders of Mormonism” when the “founder” of it is Jesus Christ Himself.
*
“This is an issue because it was never taught or practiced by Christ and the Apostles. A Christian has not and would not practice polygamy. A person seeking the truth would question a religion invented in 19th century American which claims to be a restored Christian Church. Polygamy is an example of why that claim is false.”*
According to that statement Abraham, David, & other prophets would be denied the title of christian. You do know the Lord GAVE David multiple women right? So what’s with the double standard?
*
“Mormonism teaches that the Catholic Church became apostate at the end of the first century, or no later than the Council of Nicaea (A.D. 325). They call it “the Great Apostasy.” There is no evidence of this, but Mormons nevertheless claim that the LDS Church founded by Jesus Christ in 1830 – not the Catholic Church founded by Satan in A.D. 33 – is Christ’s True Church.”*
No evidence? Look in the Bible again. Doesn’t the Catholic Church teach the priests & Popes aren’t to marry? Last I checked the Bible calls that a devilish doctrine as well as commanding to not eat meat on Fridays. In case you haven’t noticed, the Catholic Church’s beliefs kill its own theory about Peter being the first Pope. He was married and Popes aren’t supposed to be married. Care to explain that one? The Pope bows to the Virgin Mary statue. You go confess your sins to your “Holy Father”, which by the way the ONLY person that has a right to that title is God the Father, and yet the Bible says the only advocate is Christ. If you don’t see why we believe in the things we do just read the Bible. I don’t need to use a single verse in the Book of Mormon to defend our beliefs, the Bible covers it. The Book of Mormon covers who the “remnant of Jerusalem” was that fled.
The organization of Christ’s church is to have prophets & apostles & they run the church through revelation by God. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is in complete harmony with the Bible, where are the prophets & apostles for the Catholic church?
*
“This is an issue because it was never taught or practiced by Christ and the Apostles. A Christian has not and would not practice polygamy. A person seeking the truth would question a religion invented in 19th century American which claims to be a restored Christian Church. Polygamy is an example of why that claim is false.”*
According to that statement Abraham, David, & other prophets would be denied the title of christian. You do know the Lord GAVE David multiple women right? So what’s with the double standard?
*
“Mormonism teaches that the Catholic Church became apostate at the end of the first century, or no later than the Council of Nicaea (A.D. 325). They call it “the Great Apostasy.” There is no evidence of this, but Mormons nevertheless claim that the LDS Church founded by Jesus Christ in 1830 – not the Catholic Church founded by Satan in A.D. 33 – is Christ’s True Church.”*
No evidence? Look in the Bible again. Doesn’t the Catholic Church teach the priests & Popes aren’t to marry? Last I checked the Bible calls that a devilish doctrine as well as commanding to not eat meat on Fridays. In case you haven’t noticed, the Catholic Church’s beliefs kill its own theory about Peter being the first Pope. He was married and Popes aren’t supposed to be married. Care to explain that one? The Pope bows to the Virgin Mary statue. You go confess your sins to your “Holy Father”, which by the way the ONLY person that has a right to that title is God the Father, and yet the Bible says the only advocate is Christ. If you don’t see why we believe in the things we do just read the Bible. I don’t need to use a single verse in the Book of Mormon to defend our beliefs, the Bible covers it. The Book of Mormon covers who the “remnant of Jerusalem” was that fled.
The organization of Christ’s church is to have prophets & apostles & they run the church through revelation by God. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is in complete harmony with the Bible, where are the prophets & apostles for the Catholic church?
M
Miriam1947
Guest
exmormon.org/tract2.htm
This is the part after the Missionaries have convinced you to be baptized.
WHAT THE MISSIONARIES WILL NOT TELL YOU
Until recently, the missionaries were required to present Mormonism in six “discussions”, which were a series of memorized sales talks. They are now encouraged simply to “follow the spirit” in their presentations. The basic message and approach, however, is still essentially the same. A thorough, thoughtful and balanced discussion of each of the six “official” lessons as the missionaries formerly presented them to investigators is at lds4u.com, together with the techniques and strategies which the missionaries are instructed to use. (The actual texts of the discussions were also on this site at one time, but the Mormon church threatened the webmaster with a lawsuit, and he removed them; click on “next” at each window to read a summary and commentary.)
Here is a summary of important facts about the Mormon church, its doctrine, and its history that the missionaries will probably not tell you. We are not suggesting that they are intentionally deceiving you --most of the young Mormons serving missions for the church are not well educated in the history of the church or in modern critical studies of the church. They probably do not know the all the facts themselves. They have been trained, however, to give investigators “milk before meat,” that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make an investigator hesitant, even if it is true. But you should be aware of these facts before you commit yourself.
This is the part after the Missionaries have convinced you to be baptized.
WHAT THE MISSIONARIES WILL NOT TELL YOU
Until recently, the missionaries were required to present Mormonism in six “discussions”, which were a series of memorized sales talks. They are now encouraged simply to “follow the spirit” in their presentations. The basic message and approach, however, is still essentially the same. A thorough, thoughtful and balanced discussion of each of the six “official” lessons as the missionaries formerly presented them to investigators is at lds4u.com, together with the techniques and strategies which the missionaries are instructed to use. (The actual texts of the discussions were also on this site at one time, but the Mormon church threatened the webmaster with a lawsuit, and he removed them; click on “next” at each window to read a summary and commentary.)
Here is a summary of important facts about the Mormon church, its doctrine, and its history that the missionaries will probably not tell you. We are not suggesting that they are intentionally deceiving you --most of the young Mormons serving missions for the church are not well educated in the history of the church or in modern critical studies of the church. They probably do not know the all the facts themselves. They have been trained, however, to give investigators “milk before meat,” that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make an investigator hesitant, even if it is true. But you should be aware of these facts before you commit yourself.
L
LDSChristian
Guest
God gave David the wives of a king. You saying you don’t trust Him too?The main problem with Mormonism for me isn’t their story; it is that Joseph Smith is not a trustworthy man. You couldn’t trust him alone with your wife for more than five minutes so how are you going to trust him to deliver a divine revelation?
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
Dearly deceived, Jesus Christ is our Prophet, High Priest and King. The requirements to be one of the twelve are described in Acts. No one today meets this requirement, as one of them is that you must have been alive during the ministry of Jesus Christ. The Apostles appointed successors, to think they didn’t is not only false, but condemning them as derelict and uncaring. Their successors are our Bishops.
You should read your Bible more carefully:
St. Paul teaches: “To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion” (1 Cor 7:8-9).
Jesus teaches: "[His] disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” He answered, “Not all can accept [this] word, but only those to whom that is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.” (Matthew 19:10-12)
I think you have it backwards. Anyone who contradicts Jesus and claims remaining single for the sake of the kingdom of heaven is wrong, is the one in apostasy.
Peace.
Rebecca
L
LDSChristian
Guest
Are you referring to “the gates of Hell will not prevail against it”?
Do you know what “it” is referring to? It’s not talking about Christ’s church since the members of His church aren’t perfect. Do you know what the rock is? “Upon this rock I will build my church.” The “rock” is the foundation of His church. Who is the rock referring to? Who is the foundation of His church? Christ. “It” = rock, rock = Christ. To put it in the exact words that verse means, “the gates of Hell will not prevail against Christ.” The very last part of your comment “That leaves the Catholic Church as the One True Church as per Jesus Christ Himself” is invalid in every way. Don’t believe me? Want me to back it up with the Bible? It can be done. Don’t get me wrong, the Catholic church is prophesied of in the Bible but not quite the way Catholics hope.
1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and** commanding to abstain from meats**, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
Look at verse 3. The Catholic church fits that perfectly. Verses 2 & 3 both talk about what will happen so let’s take out verse 2 so you can get a better understanding.
1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
3Forbidding to marry, and** commanding to abstain from meats**, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
The Catholic church teaches the Popes and priests aren’t to marry. It also teaches to not eat meats on Friday. Read verse 3. Notice a problem with how the Catholic church believes? The Bible does talk about the Catholic Church because it is the “some” that departed from Christ listening to seducing spirits (the Pope) & doctrines of devils (Popes again).
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
No one in the Catholic Church forbids marriage. I’m married. Most of my Catholic friends are married. There are also married Priests in the Catholic Church. It is the practice in the Latin rite to forsake marriage for serving God.
Those who forsake marriage do so as their own choice, for the kingdom of heaven. It is not forced on them, they accept it. We are grateful for their sacrifice, and thank God that He gifts us in so many ways.
Peace.
Rebecca
Those who forsake marriage do so as their own choice, for the kingdom of heaven. It is not forced on them, they accept it. We are grateful for their sacrifice, and thank God that He gifts us in so many ways.
Peace.
Rebecca
L
LDSChristian
Guest
Christ never said He was the last prophet. Your bishops are examples of false leaders.
Where does that say Christ forbade marriage? Nowhere. I’m not the one backwards, I’m just defending Christ’s church against attacks from the Church of Satan, the Catholic Church.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
Perhaps the LDS who are here and keep telling us that Mormons don’t believe the Catholic Church is the “Church of Satan” would like to explain your meaning.
Peace.
Rebecca
Stephen168
New member
180 years ago to the present.
- Status