Either Catholics or Mormons have it right...

[Stephen168]

According to that statement Abraham, David, & other prophets would be denied the title of christian.

And they would not claim to be Christian.

 

[LDSChristian]

And they would not claim to be Christian.

Tradition christians, probably not. True christians, yes.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I’m sticking with the two churches, the church of the devil and the church of God.

Hi rmcmullan,

The devil (whom you believe as a Mormon is Christ’s brother) has no church.

Joseph Smith “translated” Genesis and made it mean that there are many Gods. He twisted Paul’s words to mean the same. Did you ever think about the fact that the OT is the book of the Jews and that the Jews are fiercely monotheistic? In 4,000 years, the Jews did not come to the “many Gods” theory of the Mormons. Yet Smith used their Scriptures to “prove” that there are Gods too numerous to contemplate, and that Mormons themselves can become Gods.

When Smith made the “inspired revision” of the KJV, he overlooked Isaiah 43:10: "Ye are my witnesses saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen, that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: ***before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. ***

The Jews are the “chosen people.” They were chosen by God to teach the world that He is ONE. The abbreviated Shema (meaning Deuteronomy) – the single most recited biblical verse among the Jewish people – is: ***“Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE” ***(Dt 6:4).

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[Stephen168]

The organization of Christ’s church is to have prophets & apostles & they run the church through revelation by God.

The Mormon Church did not have Apostles for the first five years after Joseph Smith invented it. One year after he invented Mormonism, he started the un-Christian practice of polygamy. Apostles were just not that important to Smith. Jesus Christ and 10 of the real Apostles were never married, and Peter was not married when he was an Apostle. Real Apostles had zero wives.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

There is a website I have been reading this week.

exmormon.org/

The saddest thing is that when these Mormons leave Mormonism, they often become atheists or agnostics. If they do go to church they look for a Unitarian one. (I have read of only one who became Catholic) They cannot believe in any church rules any more because when they realized that Mormonism is a cult and that they had been lied to, they lost all trust.

They also lose their friends and families. All the relationships they have had throughout their lives are -for many if not most of them- gone.

They still would not go back.

You’re right, Miriam. I recall when Steve Benson, Pulitzer prize-winning political cartoonist who lived in my city, parted with the LDS. He is the Grandson of the #1 Mormon at the time, Ezra Taft Benson. He began to realize that Mormonism is a fraud (his word) when his Grandfather was terminally ill, and he knew personally that the stories coming out of LDS headquarters in Salt Lake City weren’t true. This led him to the conclusion that none of it is true. He said he felt that he had been deceived all his life. His leaving made made big headlines here. He became very bitter and attacked all religious belief. Don’t know his status now; this was several years ago.

Jim Dandy

 

[Miriam1947]

Christ never said He was the last prophet. Your bishops are examples of false leaders.

Where does that say Christ forbade marriage? Nowhere. I’m not the one backwards, I’m just defending Christ’s church against attacks from the Church of Satan, the Catholic Church.

You’re right, Christ did not say he was the last prophet. Christ is God. As in the Holy Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. John the Baptist was the last prophet.

Joseph Smith was a con man. Kind of on the order of L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology. He also had a thing about planets.

Jesus also did not forbid marriage nor does the Catholic Church. It is a discipline of the Roman rite that priests remain celibate. And a priest voluntarily chooses that way of life.

Mormonism has made up the Godhead in which God the Father (one of three separate persons in this godhead) is a man and had sex with the Virgin Mary and Jesus is God’s flesh and blood son born and conceived in the usual way.

Isaiah Bennett: Two thousand years ago, the Heavenly Father looked with favor upon his daughter, the Virgin Mary. He visited her in his flesh-and-bones male body and had sexual intercourse with her. The result was Jesus Christ in his mortal body. Since Mormons say they believe Mary was a virgin when she conceived her son, LDS theologians have had to redefine the definition of “virgin.” They say a virgin is a woman who has not had sex with a mortal man; since God the Father was by then an immortal man, no loss of virginity occurred, though “normal and natural” intercourse took place (Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, vol. 1, 314; Mormon Doctrine, 546-547). An early Mormon apostle taught that God the Father and Mary were “associated together in the capacity of husband and wife” (Orson Pratt, The Seer, 158-159).

Two thousand years ago, the Heavenly Father looked with favor upon his daughter, the Virgin Mary. He visited her in his flesh-and-bones male body and had sexual intercourse with her. That sounds a lot like incest to me.

And God lives on a planet and is just one of many gods. Your particular god just happens to be yours. That god is certainly not mine.

You do not believe in the Creator as Christians do. You do not believe in the Trinity as Christians do.

That is why Mormon converts to any of the major Christian denominations as well as to the Catholic Church must be re-baptized. Their Mormon baptism is not considered valid.

 

[Stephen168]

Tradition christians, probably not. True christians, yes.

Do you a biblical quote to show your claim to be true?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

It is really not productive to go back some 150 years to find quotes made by Mormon leaders; Proclaiming truth is a noble thing to do. To do anything that is against the Holy Spirit is not noble regardless of who is doing it. The Holy Spirit does not work in a degrading manner; the Spirit operates first and foremost in love, in patience, and in hope. Proclaim truth, clarify truth, demonstrate truth, but do not seek to negatively sensationalize the beliefs of others. It rubs me so completely wrong.

Yes, I would say that I have a rather high understanding of Mormonism. I have a very difficult time ignoring the advice of scripture that we will know them by their fruit and that a evil vine does not bring forth good fruit. This we are taught to use to identify all people who follow Christ.

For me, I am not concerned that everyone have a perfect understanding of Christ today. I want to find those who do not know Christ and share Him with them. With those who already know Christ, I choose to rejoice in His Spirit with them. We each will gain a perfect understanding of Him after this world and I suspect we will all be corrected in our own false or incomplete beliefs. Possessing an incomplete understanding of Christ is the very definition of living by faith; why should you seek to punish, degrade those that seek Christ yet have an unclear understanding?

JM, the quotes are from the Book of Mormon. Get it? I didn’t think so.

I am concerned that everyone who claims to be Christian has a true understanding of Christ today.

I really don’t care what Mormons believe – I care that they claim to be Christian.

The Mormon Jesus Christ – who was a pre-existing spirit-child of a polygamous God among countless other Gods and one of his goddess wives, who is merely an ‘exalted’ man of flesh and blood like us in every way with body parts and passions – who came to earth as a result of “Heavenly Father” (the earth God’s name) having sexual intercourse with the Virgin Mary, and whose spirit-brother was Satan, is not the Jesus Christ of Christianity.

It would be a good idea for you to acquire a little knowledge of Mormon history and Mormonism before you criticize. Just a suggestion.

What do you hope to accomplish on a Catholic forum? Just wondering. Trying to teach us your version of the ‘truth,’ I imagine. Good luck with that.

Jim Dandy

 

[rmcmullan]

Here’s another thing I can’t quite understand–the Catholic church, in the true sense of the Universal Church, accepts the baptism of many different brands of Christianity, despite having fairly distinct doctrinal differences. A lot of the different issues are topics that are routinely debated on these forums. So I wonder what role these doctrinal discussions play? Are they important to our salvation or what?

So far as I’m concerned the only difference between Mormons and Catholics concerns the issue of Apostolic Succession and I believe that’s sort of the point of this thread, Re: Either Catholics or Mormons have it right…

But none of this invalidates the essential message of the Gospel nor nullifies the Holy Ghost . It’s a convenient thing to whip out the “Authority of God” card and play it as a wild card to prove all the doctrine correct. The Mormon’s authority come from the restoration of the priesthood from a resurrected Peter, James and John. The Catholic claim is that they’re the original and they never lost it. But aren’t all we arguing about is who holds the highest trump card?

 

[KathleenGee]

The whole crux of the issue is objective truth.

The references the LDSChristian are not in the actual and intentional context of how it is understood and lived out in the Catholic Church.

Celibacy, virginity are not devilish…how can the Catholic Church be accused of such …using the forbidding of eating meat on Friday…which is instead the penance we have shared one day a week…vs abstaining always from alcohol, tea, coffee, etc…

Or implying that celibacy is also within the context of devilish…while the illicit and corrupt practices of Joseph Smith is OK…vs Jesus calling us to the permanency of marriage of one man and one woman.

Mormons do not value virgins and celibate men. Because Mormons are indoctrinated to believe our church is as such, it has no knowledge of the many martyrs of the early church who refused to marry. If you don’t have a family of your own, there is little theology or spirituality for you in the Mormon church.

The statements given here by Mormons to prove there was an apostasy at the beginning of Christianity has been fruitless…and not able to give us an answer we can either reject or accept.

They can find no reason why the Apostles – first witnesses to the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ – were not allowed to appoint successors – inspite of the consistency of faith and creed down through the ages supported and maintained by the Holy Spirit…

But the original Mormon men in early 1800’s America could appoint their successors.

As Christ said, what comes out of our mouths is where our hearts are. People are going to believe what they want to believe and reject what they want …

The bottom line is who is serving whom??? If Mormonism is so good, then why does its original constructs have to define Christianity as wrong in such vile language?

The Truth and decrees of Jesus Christ or your own flesh, the faith of man making himself a god…the original temptation by Satan to Eve. The devil is a liar, a murderer, and a thief…Joseph Smith was all of these…one of the locusts with long hair we read about in Revelations who go about as false teachers poisoning the souls of men.

Mormons are denying themselves the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ that will bring us eternal life. I am praying for them that the grace of true faith will come to them…in this time of the Great Apostasy when many are turning away from the One, True God.

 

[LDSChristian]

The Mormon Church did not have Apostles for the first five years after Joseph Smith invented it. One year after he invented Mormonism, he started the un-Christian practice of polygamy. Apostles were just not that important to Smith. Jesus Christ and 10 of the real Apostles were never married, and Peter was not married when he was an Apostle. Real Apostles had zero wives.

You got a name wrong.

“The Mormon Church did not have Apostles for the first five years after Joseph Smith invented it.”

You need to change Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ. Christ is the founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Thought I’d correct your error for you. So as long as you’re talking against Joseph Smith, the prophet of Jesus Christ, you’re talking against Christ’s messenger as well as Christ Himself since those that reject His messengers will have it worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. Do yourself a favor and don’t talk against Christ’s church.

 

[Miriam1947]

Here’s another thing I can’t quite understand–the Catholic church, in the true sense of the Universal Church, accepts the baptism of many different brands of Christianity, despite having fairly distinct doctrinal differences. A lot of the different issues are topics that are routinely debated on these forums. So I wonder what role these doctrinal discussions play? Are they important to our salvation or what?

The baptisms of others are accepted because they are based on the true belief in the Trinity.

The “distinct doctrinal differences” are of our separated brethren in that they are not Catholic. They are still Christian.

Are differences important to our salvation? Of course. But, that doesn’t mean that other Christians are condemned to Hell.

I would not want to be in the shoes of a Catholic, who was taught the truth and knew it, who converted to Mormonism.

Will a Mormon go to Heaven (the one that we believe in that is not a planet with spirit gods, goddesses and spirit children)? That is not for us to say. We can only leave them to the mercy of God.

 

[LDSChristian]

You’re right, Christ did not say he was the last prophet. Christ is God. As in the Holy Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. John the Baptist was the last prophet.

Here we go with the man-made version of the trinity. You do know there’s not a verse in the Bible that backs the way people believe in the trinity right? The Bible teaches of A trinity but not the one you claim. They are one godhead, not one purpose.

Joseph Smith was a con man. Kind of on the order of L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology. He also had a thing about planets.

While you’re at it go ahead & call Abraham, Moses, Noah, Peter, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, & others con men. You’re calling a prophet of the Lord a con man so it’s no different than calling either of the prophets of old a con man.

Jesus also did not forbid marriage nor does the Catholic Church. It is a discipline of the Roman rite that priests remain celibate. And a priest voluntarily chooses that way of life.

You might want to check again. That’s a form of teaching to not marry which is a doctrine of devils.

Mormonism has made up the Godhead in which God the Father (one of three separate persons in this godhead) is a man and had sex with the Virgin Mary and Jesus is God’s flesh and blood son born and conceived in the usual way.

Made up the godhead? The godhead is biblical, not made up like you want to desperately believe. The church in fact has no standing on exactly how Christ was conceived. Yes, the Bible says Christ was conceived.

Two thousand years ago, the Heavenly Father looked with favor upon his daughter, the Virgin Mary. He visited her in his flesh-and-bones male body and had sexual intercourse with her. That sounds a lot like incest to me.

And God lives on a planet and is just one of many gods. Your particular god just happens to be yours. That god is certainly not mine.

You do not believe in the Creator as Christians do. You do not believe in the Trinity as Christians do.

That is why Mormon converts to any of the major Christian denominations as well as to the Catholic Church must be re-baptized. Their Mormon baptism is not considered valid.

Call Christ’s church by it’s name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Excuse you? Not valid? Here’s a little lesson for you: our baptisms are the ONLY ones that are valid. We do it with the proper authority. The baptisms done by all other churches aren’t worth the paper they’re recorded on. Do yourself a favor and do not speak against Christ and His church anymore. I don’t say this for me, I say this in the name of Jesus Christ.

The Catholic church may think it’s not valid but Jesus Christ makes it valid as do Peter, James, & John.

 

[LDSChristian]

The baptisms of others are accepted because they are based on the true belief in the Trinity.

The “distinct doctrinal differences” are of our separated brethren in that they are not Catholic. They are still Christian.

Are differences important to our salvation? Of course. But, that doesn’t mean that other Christians are condemned to Hell.

I would not want to be in the shoes of a Catholic, who was taught the truth and knew it, who converted to Mormonism.

Will a Mormon go to Heaven (the one that we believe in that is not a planet with spirit gods, goddesses and spirit children)? That is not for us to say. We can only leave them to the mercy of God.

Well, those of us that are Mormons and living according to the gospel will go to the Celestial Kingdom. Oh wait, you don’t believe in the 3 degrees of Heaven even though they’re taught in the Bible.

“I would not want to be in the shoes of a Catholic, who was taught the truth and knew it, who converted to Mormonism.”
That’s a twist of a statement to make. Catholic & truth…no.

“The baptisms of others are accepted because they are based on the true belief in the Trinity.”
Which trinity? The one that was created in A.D. about how they’re one God or the one the Bible teaches of how they’re one purpose? You believe in the one you believe in & I’ll stick with the one in the Bible since they’re two different versions.

We have members that were one Catholic but then they found Christ and became members of His church. They said they really couldn’t feel the spirit in the Catholic church because it doesn’t teach all the truths.

You’ve never read the Bible have you? If you did you would know your accusations against Christ’s church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, are what’s invalid. The baptisms done in the Catholic church are done with no authority. It’s no different than taking a bath. With Christ’s church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the baptism is done the way it is supposed to be done, with proper authority from God, the priesthood. That was restored to Joseph Smith by first John, giving Joseph Smith the Aaronic/Leviticus Priesthood (Aaronic & Leviticus Priesthood is the same thing, calling is the Aaronic Priesthood is calling it after Aaron like we do with Melchisedec & the Melchizedek Priesthood) & later the Melchizedek Priesthood by James and John.

 

[Miriam1947]

You can say whatever you want and name your church whatever you like.

That does not now, nor will it ever, make it the true Church of Jesus Christ. That would be the Catholic Church.

You need to read up on the history of your own church. You have one.

And here is a good link to get you going.

exmormon.org/

There are lots of articles and discussions about the history of your church.

 

[rmcmullan]

KathleenGlee,

I appreciate your point about the objective truth but it’s a struggle to discover it. I know it’s a thing independent of what people want it to be and that’s why it’s so difficult to reconcile. What do you think all these variations in doctrine are, an attempt to discover truth or to deal with a difficult truth? It’s probably both.

I have apparently missed out some of the earlier parts of the discussion. Those references you made on celibacy etc. I missed. It’s true that Mormons value Chastity and Family over celibacy. It’s true we believe there was an Apostacy. Neither of us can prove to one another’s satisfaction the superiority of our position. Our faith in our church’s teaching does not convince each other of their authority.

I’m not here to convince you of the Mormon virtues. I only wanted to correct the misinterpretation of the Book of Mormon passages offered by Jim Dandy. There’s a big difference in his intrepretation and what is believe was intended.

I am concerned with what you wrote

If Mormonism is so good, then why does its original constructs have to define Christianity as wrong in such vile language?

. Was this part of an earlier discussion I missed? To my knowledge, it has not happened.

 

[Stephen168]

“The Mormon Church did not have Apostles for the first five years after Joseph Smith invented it.”

Very true.

You need to change Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ. Christ is the founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Thought I’d correct your error for you. So as long as you’re talking against Joseph Smith, the prophet of Jesus Christ, you’re talking against Christ’s messenger as well as Christ Himself since those that reject His messengers will have it worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. Do yourself a favor and don’t talk against Christ’s church.

Christ lived 1800 years before the invention of Mormonism, so as a historical fact, it was invented by Joseph Smith. Claiming the Latter Day Saint Movement was started by Christ is the same as claiming Julius Caesar was the first President of the United States; the wrong place and time for anyone with historical knowledge to believe it. Mormon claims are shattered by science and history.

 

[LDSChristian]

LDS, you can say whatever you want and name your church whatever you like.

That does not now, nor will it ever, make it the true Church of Jesus Christ. That would be the Catholic Church.

You need to read up on the history of your own church. You have one.

And here is a good link to get you going.

exmormon.org/

There are lots of articles and discussions about the history of your church.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the true church. It is Christ’s church. I know the history. I’m proud to be a member of Christ’s church. Leaving it would only make Satan happy. Satan uses people such as yourself to try to get others to leave Christ’s church. I do hope you remove yourself from Satan’s hold on you.

 

[LDSChristian]

Very true.

Christ lived 1800 years before the invention of Mormonism, so as a historical fact, it was invented by Joseph Smith. Claiming the Latter Day Saint Movement was started by Christ is the same as claiming Julius Caesar was the first President of the United States; the wrong place and time for anyone with historical knowledge to believe it. Mormon claims are shattered by science and history.

You completely misquoted me and you know it.

““The Mormon Church did not have Apostles for the first five years after Joseph Smith invented it.””
That post was made by Miriam1947. I quoted him and corrected his error and you quoted him and changed the name. Seriously Satan through Stephen? That’s how you’re going to work? He is the master of lies so I can see why you have to change something so it fits what you think regardless of what you think contradicting the words of others including the Bible.

 

[Stephen168]

You’ve never read the Bible have you? If you did you would know your accusations against Christ’s church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, are what’s invalid. The baptisms done in the Catholic church are done with no authority. It’s no different than taking a bath. With Christ’s church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the baptism is done the way it is supposed to be done, with proper authority from God, the priesthood. That was restored to Joseph Smith by first John, giving Joseph Smith the Aaronic/Leviticus Priesthood (Aaronic & Leviticus Priesthood is the same thing, calling is the Aaronic Priesthood is calling it after Aaron like we do with Melchisedec & the Melchizedek Priesthood) & later the Melchizedek Priesthood by James and John.

Baptizing in the name of three gods is not a Christian baptism.
The Melchizedek Priesthood is another non-biblical fabrication of Joseph Smith.