Either Catholics or Mormons have it right...

[zaffiroborant]

Joseph Smith said he was told “all their creeds are an abomination in His sight”. That is a specific statement about “creeds”–not a statement about people.

That is correct, it’s the next line “those professors were all corrupt” that is a statement about people.

All the statements I read when a person says in so many words that they reject the idea of “becoming like God” (since Christ is God the Son, to become like Him is to become like God) are in essence saying they reject the faith that would be necessary to do that, so by choice such a person has had their exaltation “stopped” by their own choice. It also means they at some point are doing their own will instead of doing Christ’s will and being led by the Spirit in the process of becoming wholly pure and sanctified through repentance.

You are willfully misreading what people say to fit your preconceived notions.

This above-noted quality of the teachings, including the idea that teaches that Adam and Eve were embracing pride when they partook of the forbidden fruit and started this process of choosing between good and evil (not because of pride, but to gain “wisdom” by making choices) is the “crux of the apostasy”. It is found in what becomes the motivation of the people following the beliefs. If the target–the goal–is moved then the target is a different target than the one intended by the pure teachings of Christ and the apostles. (Even if it were moved slightly, it would still be a different target–purity is “completely pure”, without any impurity whatsoever.)

Sort of like the moving target which is the apostasy, I’ve yet to hear an LDS argue that the fall is the “crux of the apostasy” could you point me to an authoritative source on that?

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,
When I was at the LDS bookstore in 2005 or so, these kinds of materials referenced were in there.

I get your point about it being creed and not people…

I shared with you how the creed and practice of worship was basically set up within 60 years of the last apostle.

The death of the last apostle is the event signifying now God is fully revealed to us…vs your concept of the abomination of the apostasy.

Adam and Eve were clearly forbidden to taste of the Forbidden Fruit…how and exactly what really happened, nobody knows. (There is a place right now with human remains in Israel 400,000 years old…possibly; they are going to test it.)

I believe God has called us to partake in His constancy. And it is superstitous and contrary to believe in secrets…because this opposes the Apostles’ movement of the Holy Spirit to proclaim the Good News to all mankind.

The Holy Spirit did not stop.

Mr McMullen, I think there are parallels and sensitivities between Catholicism and Mormonism, but ours is the ministry of the Blood of Christ, chosen souls who become priests. I have worked very closely in fraternity with them, and have witnessed their authentic calling to God to prepare and minister to us the Eucharist, the forgiveness of sins…an experience that far transcends them as human beings.

Jesus through the Holy Spirit began His church 2000 years ago. We as a Church do not malign people because we are all created in the image of God. I am reading now that Smith and others were not drawing on the Stone Campbell movement when in fact an individual is being named now as writing the Book of Mormon who was part of this. Rigdon…?..the thread is on CAF…

I do not understand the logic of Mormons to believe in such a thing. I do think the Mormon practice of family and youth faith formation are real gifts to share with all Christians, so I certainly see God working among Mormons.

What I do not like and do not believe in are the power base within Mormonism, and making people believe such things. When I was finishing studying about Mormonism, it said that in about 100 years from now, it will be more standardized.

So then we would not be having such a discussion. And yes, by then there would be more afinity between Catholics and Mormons…but really, if you openly say we are uncharitable…well how would you if you found out Mormonism looked at our faith like that. The first thing I read about Smith was that all were an abomination…that is a pretty bigoted statement.

The truth is there was no apostasy of Christ’s church, that Mormonism was created by those who knew nothing of Catholicism but the bigotry against it.

 

[catholic-rcia]

With all due respect, Parker, if what you say is true then none of us have a need for a “Church”. All we need is a Bible. From the outside, it is difficult for us to imagine why anyone would not want to celebrate the birth of the Savior of the world. In the Catholic Church we do this by actually entering into the most intimate relationship possible with our Lord by listening to his word and receiving his true presence within us in the Eucharist. It is much more than sitting around talking about what a great event this was. It is why families gather, so that they can actually be in each other’s presence, rather than staying home and simply “remembering” each other. We want to actually be with our Lord on his birthday and we believe He wants to also be with us. This was the event for which the entire world had been waiting since Adam and Eve. It is a very big deal and certainly worthy of celebration in the greatest manner of which we are capable. There is no greater manner of celebration than the holy Mass.

God bless you.

God Bless you Steve! Praise God

Parker this is our reality. Jesus really was with us in a very unique way at the Christmass Mass. Not only was he there but Mary and Joseph as well, all the Apostles,Saints and Angels and sinners like me.

You see at every Mass the heavens do open in a special way giving God all praise and Glory for all that we have in Jesus. Yes His birth happened once and we all get to be there each year where time and space comes full circle. If you were to go to Mass next Sunday you would witness the Chritsmas seeson still moving. We are of the one Body of Christ each members of it. It is good that we gather together not as one single family, we do this each day and night, rather we gather as one very large single holy Family, gather around His table, our Saviors table and this indeed is very, very, very special. (It is Christmas)

 

[KathleenGee]

If Mormons could learn the Mass, then they would not dare call us apostate.

 

[KathleenGee]

JReducation just explained context in the Catholic sense. It is the best I have read here.

You can find it on Predestination/Calvinism, post 489…it just came out today, Dec 29…he is explaining the various context of St. Thomas, the different types of theologies and the disciplines they cover…Scripture is exegesis.

Anyway, I hope the Mormons can read it and help to see why we have such great difficulty with the assumptions of Joseph Smith and his fellow founders.

 

[Javl]

Likewise, the revelations of the prophet Joeseph Smith do not undermine Catholicism, they are the fulfillment and completion of Catholicism.

I know it is fanciful for me to imagine you want to understand our position but the LDS/Catholic relationship is analogous to the Early Christian/Jewish relationship.

I very thoroughly disagree with you, my friend. Catholicism neither needed, nor needs, fullfillment or completion. Catholicism, like the Judaeo-Christian Bible, stands alone on its 2000 year history. It is exactly the same today in its teaching and authority as it was when first instituted by Christ, and it cannot be proven otherwise.

Believe me when I say that I, and other Christians, do understand your ( LDS ) position, but it is you ( LDS ) who refuse to recognize the truth in what we say and try to tell you.
Shalom.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Jerusha]

Likewise, the revelations of the prophet Joeseph Smith do not undermine Catholicism, they are the fulfillment and completion of Catholicism.

I REALLY think you need to learn more about your faith. The LDS church is an offshoot of Baptist congregations.

Your claim is so off base, it is almost.

Any resemblance to Catholicism is due to a PARODY of Cahtolicism.

 

[RebeccaJ]

With all due respect, Parker, if what you say is true then none of us have a need for a “Church”. All we need is a Bible. From the outside, it is difficult for us to imagine why anyone would not want to celebrate the birth of the Savior of the world. In the Catholic Church we do this by actually entering into the most intimate relationship possible with our Lord by listening to his word and receiving his true presence within us in the Eucharist. It is much more than sitting around talking about what a great event this was. It is why families gather, so that they can actually be in each other’s presence, rather than staying home and simply “remembering” each other. We want to actually be with our Lord on his birthday and we believe He wants to also be with us. This was the event for which the entire world had been waiting since Adam and Eve. It is a very big deal and certainly worthy of celebration in the greatest manner of which we are capable. There is no greater manner of celebration than the holy Mass.

God bless you.

Fall on your knees and worship the God who made you, is never done at a Mormon church service, ever.

 

[Miriam1947]

I think that the Mormons have a lot in common with Jehovah’s Witnesses.

 

[mackbrislawn]

I think that the Mormons have a lot in common with Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I think so, too.

They both are miniature Catholic Churches. They both have an authoritative hierarchy just like the Catholic Church. The Mormons have a president similar to the pope; the JW’s have a president of their governing body, similar to the pope. The Mormons have their twelve apostles like the cardinals. They have bishops as well. The JW’s have the governing body similar to the cardinals. And they have overseers and elders similar to bishops and priests.

One of the main principles of the Reformation was that there was no such thing as an authoritative church, no such thing as an authoritative scripture interpreter. But both the Mormons and JW’s protested against that principle, and re-established authoritative churches. They realized the need for such a thing.

From a Catholic point of view, it is too bad they didn’t realize the Catholic Church was the answer to that need. But, they were too Protestant in upbringing to turn in that direction.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

There is one very good reason for not believing in Mormonism: It is not true.

In addition to the historical proofs against it, the sciences of archaeology and genetics disprove the yarn told by the Book of Mormon, which is the basis for Mormonism…

Joseph Smith, who proclaimed himself a “prophet” – was a con man, “the glass looker” as described by Judge Neely’s court on March 20, 1826, in Bainbridge, New York, where he was charged with “being a disorderly person and an imposter.” Upon Smith’s own testimony of indulging in magic arts and organizing searches for buried gold, he was found guilty of disorderly conduct. His occupation was looking at ‘magic peep stones’ in his hat and telling gullible people he could see where treasure was buried on their property – for a fee, of course.

Scientific studies conclusively show that the major claim of the Book of Mormon that Israelites are the principle ancestors of Native Americans is false. In fact, there are no Native American populations that share ancestry with Israelites. And no archaeological evidence has ever been found for the existence of the Lamanites or others claimed by the BOM to have lived here in the time period known as B.C. According to the BOM, artifacts should abound – from battles fought, from swords with steel blades and gold hilts, plates of brass, armor, rods of iron, bones of horses belonging to the Nephites, Lamanites, and Jaredites, and other articles. Human beings leave tracks. These alleged inhabitants left none. Steel in 600 B.C.? But Joe Smith didn’t mean the kind of steel that requires manufacture in a foundry, don’tchaknow. And he didn’t know that horses first came to the New World with the Spaniards in the 16th century A.D.
:dts:

Yet Mormons continue to defend their beliefs in spite of the overwhelming evidence against them.

O Lord, deliver us!

Jim Dandy

 

[RebeccaJ]

They both arose out of American 19th century restorationism.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

If Mormons could learn the Mass, then they would not dare call us apostate.

Do Mormons (and Protestants) know that “Christmas” is a contraction of Christ’s Mass?

Old English: Christes masse, Mass of Christ

Thanks be to God for His Church, for the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the Holy Mass! As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end, Amen.

Jim Dandy

 

[HGBWCTM]

The main problem with Mormonism for me isn’t their story; it is that Joseph Smith is not a trustworthy man. You couldn’t trust him alone with your wife for more than five minutes so how are you going to trust him to deliver a divine revelation?

The issue is confusing for those who do not know from accurate sources about plural marriage, nonetheless from my study Joseph Smith is trustworthy.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

They both arose out of American 19th century restorationism.

Thanks, Rebecca! What an interesting article! Here are the splits from Mormonism, for those who may not read the article:

Mormonism (Latter Day Saint movement)

Mormonism and Christianity
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Community of Christ
Church of Jesus Christ
Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Church of Christ with the Elijah Message
Restoration Church of Jesus Christ

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

The issue is confusing for those who do not know from accurate sources about plural marriage, nonetheless from my study Joseph Smith is trustworthy.

Joseph Smith had at least one adulterous affair, in 1835, with Fannie Alger, a 17-year old orphan girl whom Emma Smith had taken into the house – and several others were rumored – before he received the “revelation” about polygamy, announced in 1843. The Doctrine & Covenants claims “this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.”

I know a lot about “plural marriage” – I live in Arizona, where another self-proclaimed “prophet” – Warren Jeffs – ruled his polygamous Fundamentalist Mormon compound on the Arizona-Utah border before he went to prison.

What is your reason for not listing your religious affiliation? Are you Mormon?

Welcome to the forum.

Jim Dandy

 

[KathleenGee]

What does bother me about Mormonism is the covering up or ignoring of these behaviors…

I thank God that we are given the grace of faith to believe that truly Jesus Christ himself is the fullness of all revelation of God and His covenant with us. I pray for the Mormon people, they are wonderful people…but I do pray they come to the light on these kinds of past histories of their founder(s).

 

[ParkerD]

What does bother me about Mormonism is the covering up or ignoring of these behaviors…

Kathleen,

Rough Stone Rolling gives a balanced view of Joseph Smith, the man as well as the prophet. It does not “cover up” or “ignore” plural marriage nor the time frame when Joseph Smith first received the commandment about it (in 1831, when he asked in prayer about Abraham and David and why they had more than one wife).

As far as the rumor mill, anyone who trusts the rumor mill for their authoritative sources about anything, has gotten what they have asked for–rumors to base their lives on. Such a basis for living life is not for me…

Peace, and I think that about does it for me here.

 

[Javl]

The issue is confusing for those who do not know from accurate sources about plural marriage, nonetheless from my study Joseph Smith is trustworthy.

I don’t know what or where you have studied about Joseph Smith to find him trustworthy. I heartily recommend that you clean your glasses and re-read about him again.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Thanks, Rebecca! What an interesting article! Here are the splits from Mormonism, for those who may not read the article:

Mormonism (Latter Day Saint movement)

Mormonism and Christianity
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Community of Christ
Church of Jesus Christ
Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Church of Christ with the Elijah Message
Restoration Church of Jesus Christ

Jim Dandy

Here’s a link for more info on splits from the LDS.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_denominations

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem