Either Serve Or Burn In Hell

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Starwynd

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So why does it have to be this way? Why can’t there be a third option for people who want nothing to do with either God or Satan? Why does refusing to serve God automatically mean a person is evil and deserve to be tortured in hell for all eternity?
 
Serving God is not subjugation, it is fulfillment.

It isn’t punishment, but perfection.

It is every joy you have ever felt or imagined, experienced simultaneously and eternally.

To glimpse such an existence but turn away… that would be Hell.
 
Very good answer.Scripture tells us to offer our bodies as a LIVING sacrifice,which is our resonable service.It is very resonable of our Heavenly Father,Creater of the universe to ask us to serve Him.He wants "good things"for us.Asks us to love and care for one another,to keep His commandments which are not grevious.He also helps us by giving us the Graces to live daily for Him,and when we sin,He is ready, willing ,and able to forgive and clean us up.To heal us of all our infirmities though the ministry of reconciliation.Peace.
 
Serving God is not subjugation, it is fulfillment.

It isn’t punishment, but perfection.
Give me liberty of give me death. (Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.) Servitude, slavery is demeaning, even in a gilded cage. Voluntary servitude is the same. Those slaves who do not want freedom, are the true slaves. Their spirit is broken. Sad spectacle.
It is every joy you have ever felt or imagined, experienced simultaneously and eternally.
Sounds boring and horrible. Ever heard of museum fatigue? The ancient Romans said: “Varietas delectat”, and they knew what they were talking about.
To glimpse such an existence but turn away… that would be Hell.
Hell, no. 🙂 (Yes, the pun is intended.)

Hell is supposed to be active pain, misery, torture, hopelessness. Only today, in this politically correct era has the nature of Hell been downplayed. Preachers of yore would be upset to see such “sugarcoated” hell. They firmly believed in the brimstone and fire variety, they openly played the intimidation tactics on their flock. And they supported it with Biblical quotations.

The whole “heaven or hell” concept is just another variant on the age old “carrot and stick” method. Obey, and you will be rewarded, otherwise you will get punished. Ho-hum. What else is new?

Furthermore this is just a cop-out. No one is given a “glimpse” of heaven when they are still in the position to choose. Once you get there, the game is over.
 
Give me liberty of give me death. (Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.) Servitude, slavery is demeaning, even in a gilded cage. Voluntary servitude is the same. Those slaves who do not want freedom, are the true slaves. Their spirit is broken. Sad spectacle.
Serving God is none of these things. To understand why one must understand the true meaning of “love”. The “service” given in love is not slavery.
Sounds boring and horrible. Ever heard of museum fatigue?
Never heard of it. If you think that is what heaven is like, then it is no wonder why you express such a poor opinion of it.
Hell, no. 🙂 (Yes, the pun is intended.)

Hell is supposed to be active pain, misery, torture, hopelessness. Only today, in this politically correct era has the nature of Hell been downplayed. Preachers of yore would be upset to see such “sugarcoated” hell. They firmly believed in the brimstone and fire variety, they openly played the intimidation tactics on their flock. And they supported it with Biblical quotations.
If this what hell is, then it seems to me, that this presents some very compelling reasons to avoid it.
The whole “heaven or hell” concept is just another variant on the age old “carrot and stick” method. Obey, and you will be rewarded, otherwise you will get punished. Ho-hum. What else is new?
As Fr. Corapi likes to say, fear of hell isn’t the best reason to repent, but it is a good place to start. Reward and punishment also part of our physical world, why should it be any different in the spiritual world?

What is new? God’s love and his mercy.
The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases,
his mercies never come to an end;
they are new every morning;…
Lam 3:22,23​
Furthermore this is just a cop-out. No one is given a “glimpse” of heaven when they are still in the position to choose. Once you get there, the game is over.
Everyone is given a glimpse of heaven in the loving acts of those around them.

It not a game, it is life. Once our mortal life ends our immortal life begins.
 
Being “free of God” is nothing but being a slave to sin.

One can be God’s servant, or one can be sin’s slave.
 
So why does it have to be this way? Why can’t there be a third option for people who want nothing to do with either God or Satan? Why does refusing to serve God automatically mean a person is evil and deserve to be tortured in hell for all eternity?
There are a lot of reasons aside from the fact that a personal afterlife is just a ridiculous belief fueled by a fear of life and death. I think the main reason is because we haven’t outgrown our need to have enemies. Hells and heavens and armageddons are just how we get even, how we have that final victory and get the last word. Very childish actually.

Humanist alternatives to a personal afterlife will gain in popularity as the world shrinks, hopefully.
 
If you do not want to serve God, you have a free will and intellect and God will not interfer with that. It is your decision.

Why is there a hell? You know the commandments of the church, you should know what is a mortal sin, and God does not send anyone to Hell,it is you that sends you to Hell.

If you purposely do not want to follow the guidelines of Christ and go against his teachings, what do you expect?

Can you image the suffering that Christ did for us so we could be saved?

I can’t even imagine what a horrendous suffering that must have been.

So, please do not say that God send us to Hell, we send ourself there.

As for Purgatory, we all have to atone for the punishments due to our sins. We have to be purified and than we can see God.

Why shouldn’t we suffer? Christ did. Christ has sent me many heavy crosses and I thank him daily at mass and ask him to ask the eternal father to take these crosses and to release some of the souls in purgatory.
 
Ok, put it this way.

God has created you. In fact, He has created everything.

Without God, you are nothing.

So what a person who wants “nothing to do with God or Satan” really wants is to put himself ‘over’ God. You are nothing without God, but insist that you don’t need Him even though you cannot even breathe or think without His help. Yet you insist that your creation and life have absolutely **nothing **to do with the Creator is yours alone?

The point is, it is not a dualistic question of “God or Satan” as if ‘satan’ is the opposite of God. He isn’t; satan is merely a rebellious angel.

The ‘opposite’ of God is basically the opposite of everything. It is nothingness but not like the nirvana nothingness–which in itself is ‘something’. Denying God–and yes, refusal to want Him as part of your life IS denying God–means one takes himself ‘away’ from God and thus away from all that is good, and true.

What one is left with is the absence of goodness, truth, life, and love. IOW, hell. . .the absence of God. Freely chosen.

One isn’t ‘punished’ unknowingly.

You can’t ‘have your cake and eat it too’. You think that simply rejecting good, but not doing an ‘active evil’, means you’re morally perfectly acceptable? Rejecting God is rejecting good. You’ve already done an evil in that rejection; you have also refused to do all that is good by rejecting God. To think that you haven’t really done ‘wrong’ (though you certainly have not done ‘right’) and then have the further hubris to think that you will NEVER do anything remotely wrong the rest of your life and then to claim that you should not be punished simply for 'not wanting to have any part of God" because ‘I didn’t do anything really bad’ shows that you really have not grasped (or refuse to grasp) the idea that you are a creature and a god yourself.

Creatures are subject to God (whether those creatures will admit it or not). And this is not SLAVERY or subjugation but a natural part of being a creation.
 
So why does it have to be this way? Why can’t there be a third option for people who want nothing to do with either God or Satan? Why does refusing to serve God automatically mean a person is evil and deserve to be tortured in hell for all eternity?
Because that’s the way God set it up. 🤷 He’s the boss, He’s in control, He makes the “rules”, and he wants us to be on the side where we benefit the most.
Give me liberty of give me death. (Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.) Servitude, slavery is demeaning, even in a gilded cage. Voluntary servitude is the same. Those slaves who do not want freedom, are the true slaves. Their spirit is broken. Sad spectacle.

Yes, it is, but only if one is entirely self-centered. Haven’t you ever received pleasure, i.e. a wonderful feeling (not something in return for a favor) when you do something for someone else? Hardly reflexive of a broken spirit, methinks.

**Sounds boring and horrible. Ever heard of museum fatigue? The ancient Romans said: “Varietas delectat”, and they knew what they were talking about **

And that’s why their civilization still exists today. 😃

Hell is supposed to be active pain, misery, torture, hopelessness. Only today, in this politically correct era has the nature of Hell been downplayed. Preachers of yore would be upset to see such “sugarcoated” hell. They firmly believed in the brimstone and fire variety, they openly played the intimidation tactics on their flock. And they supported it with Biblical quotations.

Not entirely; the folks at the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas seem to be doing a good job of keeping the fire-and-brimstone thing going.

**The whole “heaven or hell” concept is just another variant on the age old “carrot and stick” method. Obey, and you will be rewarded, otherwise you will get punished. Ho-hum. What else is new? **

Let’s see…the Romans had it right, and their concept is not certainly “new”, but God’s concept isn’t right because it’s not “new”? :confused:

Furthermore this is just a cop-out. No one is given a “glimpse” of heaven when they are still in the position to choose.

Beg to differ. Certainly, someone with a bitter view of the good things of this world might agree, but look around us.

Haven’t we all experienced something really wonderful, something really cool, some experience way beyond the normal day-to-day that we would gladly want to repeat in a heartbeat? These experiences are not a glimpse of heaven? I see them as such.

Once you get there, the game is over.

Yes, quite true. Generally, most people have a lifetime to make their choice.
 
We must choose God or Hell for the same reason we must choose air or suffocation. It’s not arbitrary, it’s a matter of need. Hell is the absence of either God or any distraction from the soul’s need for God. Death is the absence of anything between our awareness and our spiritual state. Heaven is the spiritual state of those who have met God’s standard of faith, love and hope in Him, the standard we were made for, and Hell is the spiritual state of those who have run from God for a lifetime and even refused to turn to Him as the end closed in. It’s soul death.
 
What do you think it means to serve God?
This is not a serious post. I am just having a little innocent fun here. Not intended as an insult.

There was a family in whose kitchen there was a sign on the wall: “In this house we serve God”. I had this urge to ask: “How do you serve God? Baked, broiled, deep fried? Maybe sauteed or au-naturel? With or without French fries?”

If someone think that this is in bad taste (pun inteded) then I apologize.
 
This is not a serious post. I am just having a little innocent fun here. Not intended as an insult.

There was a family in whose kitchen there was a sign on the wall: “In this house we serve God”. I had this urge to ask: “How do you serve God? Baked, broiled, deep fried? Maybe sauteed or au-naturel? With or without French fries?”

If someone think that this is in bad taste (pun inteded) then I apologize.
Not to wander too far from the topic, but we do eat God, daily or weekly.
 
There are a lot of reasons aside from the fact that a personal afterlife is just a ridiculous belief fueled by a fear of life and death. I think the main reason is because we haven’t outgrown our need to have enemies. Hells and heavens and armageddons are just how we get even, how we have that final victory and get the last word. Very childish actually.

Humanist alternatives to a personal afterlife will gain in popularity as the world shrinks, hopefully.
And what if you are wrong?
 
So why does it have to be this way? Why can’t there be a third option for people who want nothing to do with either God or Satan? Why does refusing to serve God automatically mean a person is evil and deserve to be tortured in hell for all eternity?
God and satan are not “counterpoised gods”. You know that, right?

“Refusing to serve God” is like refusing to allow light into your eyes, then complaining that it’s impossible to read.

To say that you don’t want anything to do with God is like saying that you don’t want anything to do with air.

What do you actually think “serving God” means?

We are evil-doers if we do culpably evil deeds, and WE as persons are not evil, as only our actions are evil. The sinner is not the sin.

Hell is the choice of the sinner (ie. the person) who irrevocably chooses (“into death”) to “complain that they can’t read while not allowing light into their eyes”.

Do you need any clarification of any of this? 🙂
 
This OP reveals a very childish perspective of God as well as a self-centered perspective.

God is pure love and simply higher in majesty and holiness than anything we can imagine through the limits of human intellect. To try to put God in a box formed by an orthogonal “either or” extreme of “Serve or Burn” is trying to judge something that is so beyond one’s feeble mind to comprehend that the assertion is axiomatically seen to be extreme arrogance and hubris.

Consider the following and see if this puts things in a different perspective:
  1. God has NO need for anyone. You were created and given a free gift of life to do with it as YOU choose. But like in all things some choices are better than others. Here we have two choices - to serve oneself or to serve God and others (e.g. charity). To do nothing is not an option since existence requires that we serve something - if nothing other than our own hunger.
  2. The alternative to being created is oblivion - non existence. Without life there is not even a temporary period of time on earth to take in and enjoy oneself and nature much less serve anyone else or God. Thus the alternative to being created is nothingness.
  3. But you are here in Creation and you have a free gift of life. You can be either self absorbed and choose to spend that life on self and then after on average of 70 years die.
  4. After death there are 3 possible outcomes:
4-1) You return to oblivion - your days are over - end of story - no one cares and nothing changes, your time is irrelevant (Atheist view)

4-2) You discover that you really have an immortal nature (The Creator is pretty amazing and when He creates a spiritual being He does it for eternity). But you in a spiritual form without body have need of a spiritual place to habitate. Your spirit discerns that God has a home in a place called heaven. You appear there at the entrance and discover that God does not let just anyone share his House with Him since He does not enjoy the presence of those who are self serving, crude, vile and debased. It is His home and He gets to make the rules for anyone that wants to stay with Him. Seems fair right? If you have taken to the natural clues in nature and the many religious messages to to “do good” and have acted on that call then God may let you stay with Him - indefinitely - for eternity (with maybe a temporary stay in purgatory to get you all polished up and ready to live with God comfortable without being intimidated by his magnificence). Again - another FREE DEAL. Seems fair right? OR…

4-3) God observes that you do not want to live in His house according to His rules and respects your choice to be independent and to live according to your own wishes. So God points you to another place called Hell that God also made as a place for those who do not want to live under God’s roof according to His rules. But you object and say “I want to be in Heaven” since it appears nicer. But God says “no” - I live there and you don’t like me and I will not suffer you to be in my presence for eternity since you could not bear my majesty without burning with intense contempt and jealousy. Rather than annihilate your immortal soul as if you never existed God graciously lets you live in Hell far far away from His presence that you find repugnant since He makes you feel so small. Since you did not want to live by God’s rules He will let you make you own home with your own powers and abilities in hell. But horror of horrors you arrive in hell and discover than its really not a pleasant place to exist since it reflects YOUR nature - not God’s nature. YOU who previously laughed at God and disrespected His ways discover that you have you have absolutely no intrinsic powers of your own whatsoever, nor any means to craft a more pleasant environment or derive any pleasure. So without God’s creative powers you can not build anything in hell for yourself to even keep you occupied - all you have are memories of your past life on earth and your day in the sun and how often you rejected God’s ways over your own ways. Congratulations, you have “done it your way” and made yourself a god and have discovered the real “you”. You get to spend the rest of eternity contemplating that you are all you will ever be and will have insights into what God had planned for you if you had done His will and you hate God only more than yourself for not giving you what you rejected in life.

James
 
Consider the following and see if this puts things in a different perspective:
  1. God has NO need for anyone. You were created and given a free gift of life to do with it as YOU choose.
Tell that to those whose life is full of misery, illness and untimely death. What a “wonderful” gift from the “benevolent God”. What choice do they have, except suffer? There are people like that, you know.
But like in all things some choices are better than others. Here we have two choices - to serve oneself or to serve God and others (e.g. charity). To do nothing is not an option since existence requires that we serve something - if nothing other than our own hunger.
Except that it is a gross oversimplification and incorrect. Just to lead a good decent, loving and caring life does not get you anywhere, if you do not actively worship God. “There is no way to the Father, except me” - said Jesus. This quote is always neglected when we ask about the presumed fate of good, but not Christian people. The apologists pretend that it is not actually true… I wonder why?
  1. The alternative to being created is oblivion - non existence. Without life there is not even a temporary period of time on earth to take in and enjoy oneself and nature much less serve anyone else or God. Thus the alternative to being created is nothingness.
That is true. Nothing hurts those who do exist. You cannot do anything for those who do not exist. You cannot even create those who do not exist, since nonexistence is uniform; there is no difference between a nonexistent dog and a nonexistent cat.
  1. But you are here in Creation and you have a free gift of life. You can be either self absorbed and choose to spend that life on self and then after on average of 70 years die.
Which we did not ask for. We are given no option whether we want this existence or not. We have no option to select our abilities, our surroundings.

The creator also puts us out “into the streets” - so to speak, and does not support us, or cares for us. He acts exactly like those women who - for some reason or another - leave their freshly born children at the door of someone else. I gave him life, now you care for him! - they say. If this is the pinnacle of “love”…
  1. After death there are 3 possible outcomes:
4-1) You return to oblivion - your days are over - end of story - no one cares and nothing changes, your time is irrelevant (Atheist view)
Right on the money.
4-2) You discover that you really have an immortal nature (The Creator is pretty amazing and when He creates a spiritual being He does it for eternity). But you in a spiritual form without body have need of a spiritual place to habitate. Your spirit discerns that God has a home in a place called heaven. You appear there at the entrance and discover that God does not let just anyone share his House with Him since He does not enjoy the presence of those who are self serving, crude, vile and debased. It is His home and He gets to make the rules for anyone that wants to stay with Him. Seems fair right? If you have taken to the natural clues in nature and the many religious messages to to “do good” and have acted on that call then God may let you stay with Him - indefinitely - for eternity (with maybe a temporary stay in purgatory to get you all polished up and ready to live with God comfortable without being intimidated by his magnificence). Again - another FREE DEAL. Seems fair right? OR…
Except there are no clues. The religious messages are just made-up human inventions. See the Jesus quote above. Don’t pretend it is not there.

Now, you would be correct in your analysis, if there would be crystal clear, unambiguous, unmistakeable rules, with full disclosure - up front! - that these are the requirements, these are the expectations, and these are the outcomes. Then and only then could God justly judge us. To demand full responsibility without full information is manifestly unjust.
4-3) God observes that you do not want to live in His house according to His rules and respects your choice to be independent and to live according to your own wishes. So God points you to another place called Hell that God also made as a place for those who do not want to live under God’s roof according to His rules.
And even then a loving God would allow repentence. There cannot be an end to mercy. What kind of a nonsense is that one can only repent as long as they are kept in the dark about the options and the requirements? As soon as they are confronted with God, then there is no more free will, which God supposedly respects so much, that he allows all the pain, misery and atrocities to happen in this existence. Why does God not respect our “free will”, when actually have full information?
 
Tell that to those whose life is full of misery, illness and untimely death.
So you are saying that ultimately life is **only **about being happy, healthy, and long-lived. That anything which is objectively seen as ‘misery, illness, and untimely death’ is obviously no gift at all. That anything less that ‘what I want, when I want’ is 'nothing. That life is only as ‘good’ as some quantitative and objectifiable and ephemeral HUMAN measurements, and not intrinsically good in and of itself. This from a creature who cannot even live on his own without God, in any way, shape or form. . .and we are expected to believe that your subjective opinion on what is ‘good’ trumps that of the being who MADE you? I don’t think so.

Except that it is a gross oversimplification and incorrect. Just to lead a good decent, loving and caring life does not get you anywhere, if you do not actively worship God. "

So what exactly do you mean by ‘not’ actively worshipping, eh? You think that God made you, ok, whoopie, but you don’t want any part of Him. You don’t want a relationship with Him unless it is on YOUR terms and yours alone, you want only what YOU want, you don’t want any part of living in this world with all its ‘failings’, you want a perfect world where you can do whatever you want and never have to even think of, let alone try to know and love the Being who made you. How can you think that there is somebody so infinitely great, who MADE YOU, and NOT want to worship HIm, that’s what I’d like to know. It’s such a no-brainer. Gee, somebody loved me enough to make me. Even if my life were nothing but pain (to me), isn’t there some meaning I can take from it if I stop focusing on ME-ME-ME and start focusing on God? Sure there is but it is a lot easier to kvetch and complain that God isn’t perfect enough even to be as good as YOU.

That is true. Nothing hurts those who do exist.
And you know all about nonexistence because? You can create beings yourself, right? You know, for a fact, that nonexistence is ‘better’ because it doesn’t ‘hurt’. You’re absolutely sure that there is NO OTHER CRITERIA for judging whether it is better to exist or not. It’s all about ‘quality of life’. And of course, being human you have omniscience, you planned the whole universe and designed it. . .no wait, that would be God.

Which we did not ask for. We are given no option whether we want this existence or not. We have no option to select our abilities, our surroundings.

Oh, so the created beings want to have the power of life and death because “we didn’t ask to be created”. Yes, that’s right. Part of being ‘created’ means, guess what, you do NOT have the power to ‘ask for’ existence. You do NOT have the option to select things. Created beings are the product of their Creator. HE knows what it is all about. You don’t. . . and you want to moan that it isn’t FAIR? God is infinitely above you and you claim that it isn’t fair that you don’t get to have what you want without any real idea of what that entails?
The creator also puts us out “into the streets” - so to speak, and does not support us, or cares for us. Right now, you could not BREATHE unless God permits it. He is standing right there, all around you. There is no place where God is not. There is nothing that He is not aware of. If you think He just ‘dumps’ us and runs off, you have even less knowledge of Christianity than I thought. If He had done nothing other than redeem us on the Cross that would have tbeen more than we could ever have asked for. . .yet He is with us always, at all times.

Right on the money.

Except there are no clues. The religious messages are just made-up human inventions.
And again, of course, you yourself are perfectly, totally, and infallibly correct. You know EVERYTHING is ‘made up human inventions’. You are so blessed with infinite wisdom that you can speak authoritatively, have read every Scripture, every theological work, spoken with God Himself to be sure you ‘read’ Him correctly. I think not.

To demand full responsibility without full information is manifestly unjust.

Because God, who created us, is naturally “UNJUST”. Naturally our limited human standards of justice and our shallow minds are perfectly capable of understanding absolute justice. Anything which doesn’t meet OUR standards just isn’t perfect. The idea that anything could be judged ‘differently’ from what we ASSUME (because we don’t know the WHOLE PICTURE, do we?) automatically means that it would be UNJUST, because it isn’t OUR judgment.

And even then a loving God would allow repentence. IF the person were capable of repentence they would not be in hell. Thing is, while the person might subjectly be ‘sorry’, he wouldn’t be sorry ENOUGH. KWIM? It’s all very well to say, "I’d rather have heaven because it looks nicer’. . .but if one goes on to say, "But I’m still not going to obey. I want to do MY will no matter what. I still hate God. I don’t want to be near him. I want everything I want, and that doesn’t include him’-that person has not repented at all.

As Rhett Butler told Scarlet O’Hara, “You aren’t sorry. You’re like the thief who isn’t sorry he stole, but is TERRIBLY, TERRIBLY sorry he’s going to jail.”
 
From the encyclical Veritatis Splendor:
  1. Those who live “by the flesh” experience God’s law as a burden, and indeed as a denial or at least a restriction of their own freedom. On the other hand, those who are impelled by love and “walk by the Spirit” (Gal 5:16), and who desire to serve others, find in God’s Law the fundamental and necessary way in which to practise love as something freely chosen and freely lived out. Indeed, they feel an interior urge — a genuine “necessity” and no longer a form of coercion — not to stop at the minimum demands of the Law, but to live them in their “fullness”. This is a still uncertain and fragile journey as long as we are on earth, but it is one made possible by grace, which enables us to possess the full freedom of the children of God (cf. Rom 8:21) and thus to live our moral life in a way worthy of our sublime vocation as “sons in the Son”.
 
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