Elderly or infirm "liturgical ministers"?

[MSSheBear]

If that had happened in my parish, and I got to hear of it, the EMHC wouldn’t have been the only one to ‘disappear’. I would have done, as well. Exploding because of an accident is shameful. I couldn’t tolerate such a lack of self-control and sympathy on the part of the priest.

I understand that he would be concerned about the Blessed Sacrament, but even so. ‘By their fruits you will know them’.

He had a horrendous schedule and was under a lot of stress. He irritated people. But he had his good points. I have come across worst priests.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Adn whose doing is that?

Some of those “old ladies” at parishes run the place because NO ONE else will step up.
Ask any priest. Behind every successful parish there is an army of women who do all the heavy lifting.

The only parish I know well enough from the inside to speak about is my own, where I have been for 20+ years.

The women who run the show imagine that the situation is as you describe - that they are the only ones who will step up for all the work, and that if others were to step up they’d be welcome.

In practice what they want is for other people to help with the work, but for them to hold onto the reins. Personally, I’ve done the work, and also been in the meetings with the intention of having a say in parish matters. In meetings the clique makes the decisions among themselves and treat outside comments as an irritation. Where “outside” can be someone who has been in the parish more than a decade and been helping in various roles for that long.

I’ve had independent confirmation of these observations from others in the parish, both men and women. I’ve also seen numerous people attend one or two meetings, and never return, and also numerous people who have helped in the various liturgical and assistant roles over the years. I’ve seen one newcomer being accepted into the controlling clique - a woman with similar views, which seems to be a basic requirement for membership of a female clique.

As for the “implicit threat” to obstruct if they were thwarted (which I mentioned), that actually happened a few years ago. With a change of priests they all returned and took charge again.

So, I must dispute your suggestion that if others help then they can also be involved in the decision making. That’s a common assumption in Catholic parishes, and it would be good if it were true, but may not work in practice.

Characterizing what I posted about as “so-and-so is just tooooo difficult to get along with” is laughable. It’s far different than what you appear to think it is

:yup:

 

[MSSheBear]

Who was in charge of that? The pastor himself? Was there resistance?

You know I don’t know if it was the diocese or our pastor who was behind it. I imagine there was resistance. There was several meetings for new and would be EHMC’s at times that were unheard of previously. Also I believe that a couple of these were people who had followed the priest from his previous parish.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

kpeople:npatrol:

No idea what those emoticons mean.

The elderly and infirm, the disabled are devalued greatly in Western Society. Especially the elderly. To further devalue an aged Parishoners by saying sir down and be quiet in Mass because a Parishoner can’t hear or understand them , is absolutely deplorable.

How about the complaining Parishoner move to the front In order to hear, or offer to fix the sound system.

The Bible says old age is a crowning glory, and the wisdom of old age is something we should all listen to.

Christian values. ,

 

[Bonnie]

I hope this makes the OP feel better - my husband & I are older & no longer volunteer for anything in the parish. We just don’t have the energy. In fact, our parish doesn’t seem to have a problem with elderly volunteers - the the older ones who still serve as readers or handing out communion (or whatever the “correct” term is - I keep forgetting it - e-m-something-something), don’t have any physical limitations.

However, we have a sweet young lady who serves as a reader who doesn’t know how to use the microphone & has a high-pitched, quiet voice. Our church is small enough that a loud person doesn’t need the mike, but she does. We don’t complain, tho I’m sure we’re not the only ones who can’t hear her. Thank goodness we can read along with her.

 

[Solomonson]

What happens in other parishes would depend on what that particular Pastor chooses to do about it.

I am a reader and EMHC and most of the elderly people I know who also participate in these ministries know when it’s time to stop. It may be a difficult thing for them to accept, but they usually do the right thing without any intervention from the Pastor or anyone else.

I am curious as to why this is of interest to you, especially if you have no control of any of it.

Why are you curious?

I’m curious because I wonder if what I observe in my parish is at least halfway common, or is it a manifestation of a ill parish?

These forums are funny in that some people seem to think that it’s wrong simply to ask about certain things. What a hideous mindset! Being made afraid to discuss (and not gossip!) things is the first step to things really doing down the tubes over time.

 

[Solomonson]

You are expressing terribly uncharitable and pride filled emotions here. This is not what Christianity and God is about.

I hear the echo of these sentiments in atheists I know, in their arguments against God and His Church.

Moreover , you yourself are not on these teams, given your previous posts, so you are getting involved in something not your concern, and whipping up trouble and ill feeling. Another thing atheists delight in watching in us Christians.

Imitate Jesus Christ , my brother, let his light shine through you.

And I really think you should start attending Mass at an infirm home, they all seem in need of Pastoral Care helpers. Yes you will have to pick up dropped hosts, yes the readings might be slow and faltered, the reader might have to stop for a whiff of oxygen. The reader may have to press his voice box button. The elderly Priest or Bishop celebrating might be a bit slower.

Does God really care? Does Jesus not attend these type of Masses?

I will pray for you today, brother. All these issues seem to be corroding your Peace with worship perhaps?

How terribly arrogant and judgemental of you. Please, I ask that if you see another posting from me, simply practice some self-control and skip over it. Your comments are not only often rude but they are typically non-value added to boot. I thank you in advance.

 

[Solomonson]

If that had happened in my parish, and I got to hear of it, the EMHC wouldn’t have been the only one to ‘disappear’. I would have done, as well. Exploding because of an accident is shameful. I couldn’t tolerate such a lack of self-control and sympathy on the part of the priest.

I understand that he would be concerned about the Blessed Sacrament, but even so. ‘By their fruits you will know them’.

Both chalices and ciboria have been dropped in my parish during the Mass. It’s a sickening rather than anger-producing event. I left one time. It made me feel rotten and I simply didn’t want to be in that space anymore.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

How terribly arrogant and judgemental of you. Please, I ask that if you see another posting from me, simply practice some self-control and skip over it. Your comments are not only often rude but they are typically non-value added to boot. I thank you in advance.

You ask what people think. You ask our opinions. Sure , not all of them are going to agree with you. Some are going to outright disagree with you. And in this case , you are being incredibly judgemental about abilities of the elderly, And the motives and charity of those hard working teams who keep the Church going. Many of your comments are quite uncharitable.

You want fence sitters or people with real opinions? Seriously, go do some volunteer work in an aged home . Find a different position on those less able then yourself.

I will pray for you Sir

 

[zab]

You ask what people think. You ask our opinions. Sure , not all of them are going to agree with you. Some are going to outright disagree with you. And in this case , you are being incredibly judgemental about abilities of the elderly, And the motives and charity of those hard working teams who keep the Church going. Many of your comments are quite uncharitable.

You want fence sitters or people with real opinions? Seriously, go do some volunteer work in an aged home . Find a different position on those less able then yourself.

I will pray for you Sir

 

[Solomonson]

The only parish I know well enough from the inside to speak about is my own, where I have been for 20+ years.

The women who run the show imagine that the situation is as you describe - that they are the only ones who will step up for all the work, and that if others were to step up they’d be welcome.

In practice what they want is for other people to help with the work, but for them to hold onto the reins. Personally, I’ve done the work, and also been in the meetings with the intention of having a say in parish matters. In meetings the clique makes the decisions among themselves and treat outside comments as an irritation. Where “outside” can be someone who has been in the parish more than a decade and been helping in various roles for that long.

I’ve had independent confirmation of these observations from others in the parish, both men and women.** I’ve also seen numerous people attend one or two meetings, and never return**, and also numerous people who have helped in the various liturgical and assistant roles over the years.** I’ve seen one newcomer being accepted into the controlling clique - a woman with similar views, which seems to be a basic requirement for membership of a female clique.**

As for the “implicit threat” to obstruct if they were thwarted (which I mentioned), that actually happened a few years ago. With a change of priests they all returned and took charge again.

So, I must dispute your suggestion that if others help then they can also be involved in the decision making. That’s a common assumption in Catholic parishes, and it would be good if it were true, but may not work in practice.
:yup:

Thank you for this wonderful sanity check. It seems like more than a few here do all they can to derail any conversation about parishes that are literally ruled by groups of laypeople. Typically (in my experience) laywomen who don’t bring a great deal to the table other than their willingness to fight in a political sense and to control their turf.

I’ve seen this group dealt with successfully twice at my parish. The Spanish-speaking contingent won “the right” to take care of their own liturgies. But it was a brutal fight nearly 20 years ago. Only the bishop siding with the Latinos won them the day.

Another was when we were pastor-less with three parochial vicars. They were young and simply dismissed and ignored ALL of the problem people. They were successful because they got to know the people in the pews and actively recruited the ones they wanted. Heck, they would almost conscript people – both of my parents fell in that group. But once they left, things fell apart and when the new pastor arrived, he was most eager to do whatever was easiest for him.

I’ll also add that there is considerable infighting within the clique itself at my parish.

 

[mommy_k]

We have a coordinator assign different tasks to liturgical ministers when they sign up…if one has a soft voice or reads too fast, she lets them know in a kind way that perhaps another way for them to serve would be better then being a lector or cantor… iow…to direct people to ministries that match thier talents.

She also assigns different tasks for people who could no longer function well at thier regular ministry, due to illness or decline in ability. Sometimes as stated upthread, people feel very badly that they are not able to do certain things anymore and replacing the ministry with one that is not as taxing for them preserves this dignity, and just askingif they want a different ministry and stating them helps them with that. She directs them to make thier own decision…but guides them to it. Talents change and evolve into different ones, and it is a delicate matter and needs a soft approach. Yes?

What is seen in church consists of a small percentage of all the ministries and work that is happening behind the scenes and many don’t know this fact. When people truly have a heart for service to Jesus, the exchange of how to serve is secondary most times.

However, if the person is not endangering the Host and just is slowing down walking…this to me is not a valid reason to ask them to consider these changes

 

[pnewton]

On there other hand there are just outright nasty difficulties. The same reader gets the same last minute call. They explain how difficult it will be for them, but they commit to being there. Once they make their way to church, they are smugly told by the “coordinator” that someone else is reading – the coordinator. They swallow their emotions but perhaps not to the level expected by the coordinator. The following week – and every week after that, they find they have been removed from the schedule for reading at Mass. All without so much as an email or a quick call. Attempts to contact the coordinator fail – emails and calls are not returned. There aren’t a huge number of people in my parish that are willing to get involved once they have been burnt a few times in this manner.

This is not an insurmountable obstacle. It sounds like nothing more than a tiff. I seriously doubt anyone was removed for showing up and not reading.

I may be wrong, but it sure seems like you are bringing some sort of personal problem here that has nothing to do with the elderly or infirm as a way of airing some grievance. Since we know nothing, but one hypothetical side to this story, what is the point here?

 

[pnewton]

In meetings the clique makes the decisions among themselves and treat outside comments as an irritation. Where “outside” can be someone who has been in the parish more than a decade and been helping in various roles for that long.

There are solutions to this as well. A parish is not a high school, and adults should have more tools for dealing with people than teenagers.

I understand personality problems and I know that some people will try and use authority as a means of control. But bringing all of this stuff to liturgical threads here that have nothing to do with them is hardly the answer. Maybe you guys need to start a thread on your individual problems and seek solutions from the collective experience here. There are ways of dealing with difficult people and addressing grievances without walking away angry.

Thank you for this wonderful sanity check. It seems like more than a few here do all they can to derail any conversation about parishes that are literally ruled by groups of laypeople.

I do not mean to derail a conversation, but rather to stop the derailing of this thread. It seems you have a legitimate issue that resonates with some people. It isn’t this issue though. Just be forewarned not to be too thin-skinned if you ask what you might do. The replies might be direct, and even revealing.

 

[Edmundus1581]

There are solutions to this as well. A parish is not a high school, and adults should have more tools for dealing with people than teenagers.

I understand personality problems and I know that some people will try and use authority as a means of control. But bringing all of this stuff to liturgical threads here that have nothing to do with them is hardly the answer. Maybe you guys need to start a thread on your individual problems and seek solutions from the collective experience here. There are ways of dealing with difficult people and addressing grievances without walking away angry.

The diversion emerged naturally from the topic, and then continued as you and others challenged the posts within the diversion. My last post was entirely a response to such a challenge.

If you want to end the diversion then I suggest you don’t leave “one last” comment on it, and the people involved… (ie. your first para).

Pax

 

[Edmundus1581]

I think I meant “digression” rather than “diversion”

 

[Solomonson]

This is not an insurmountable obstacle. It sounds like nothing more than a tiff. **I seriously doubt anyone was removed for showing up and not reading.
**

You would be wrong.

I may be wrong, but it sure seems like you are bringing some sort of personal problem here that has nothing to do with the elderly or infirm as a way of airing some grievance. Since we know nothing, but one hypothetical side to this story, what is the point here?

You’re wrong again.

Take a close look at this thread. It wasn’t me that worked to derail it. I didn’t work to silence people with an opinion or something to share. Most of all, I didn’t judge anyone for their (name removed by moderator)ut.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t feel that I’m being singled-out or picked on. I see a lot of people ask questions who absolutely get pounced on by the righteous few. Not very Catholic.

 

[Solomonson]

There are solutions to this as well. A parish is not a high school, and adults should have more tools for dealing with people than teenagers.

“Solutions” that will never be realized unless the pastor finally decides to fix some thing. In a whole lot of parishes that means they’ll likely never (or at least not for a very long time) be realized.

I understand personality problems and I know that some people will try and use authority as a means of control. But bringing all of this stuff to liturgical threads here that have nothing to do with them is hardly the answer. Maybe you guys need to start a thread on your individual problems and seek solutions from the collective experience here. There are ways of dealing with difficult people and addressing grievances without walking away angry.

There’s nothing wrong with discussing difficult issues, so long as the conversation does not turn to gossip or worse. Every once in a while something that someone else posts is extremely informative or at the very least a helpful sanity check. There is something wrong when people clearly work to derail threads.

I do not mean to derail a conversation, but rather to stop the derailing of this thread. It seems you have a legitimate issue that resonates with some people. It isn’t this issue though. Just be forewarned not to be too thin-skinned if you ask what you might do. The replies might be direct, and even revealing.

Some of the responses are terribly judgemental too…

This thread was educational to me. My takeaway is not dealing with those who negatively impact the celebration of the Mass due to advanced age or infirmary is nothing unique to my parish. I did not know that. Further, its source is nothing unique in my parish. It stems from what almost all the other problems stem from. A lack of clerical leadership.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

How terribly arrogant and judgemental of you. Please, I ask that if you see another posting from me, simply practice some self-control and skip over it. Your comments are not only often rude but they are typically non-value added to boot. I thank you in advance.

Roseeurekacross is not the one who is being “terribly arrogant” and “judgemental”…not at all.

I find that poster’s remarks quite insightful.

I highlight this portion of your post…

Your comments are not only often rude but they are typically non-value added to boot

…since it is remarkable to me that this could be found to be anything but in violation of the forum rules…on multiple grounds.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

“Solutions” that will never be realized unless the pastor finally decides to fix some thing. In a whole lot of parishes that means they’ll likely never (or at least not for a very long time) be realized.

There’s nothing wrong with discussing difficult issues, so long as the conversation does not turn to gossip or worse.

Classically, forum rules and moderator directives clearly and absolutely forbade discussing difficulties occurring in one’s own parish, as it reduced the Liturgy and Sacraments sub-forum to a sort of complaint window about practices in a parish…and that was strictly and mercifully forbidden, not least the posting of noxious videos of dubious provenance designed to elicit a certain type of response.

/…/ Further, its source is nothing unique in my parish. It stems from what almost all the other problems stem from. A lack of clerical leadership.

I think it would very fascinating to hear the pastor who is being tried here in absentia.

I presume this is the pastor from your first thread. He seemed to have had no problem in demonstrating pastoral leadership by objecting strenuously to your article about “the movement of the tabernacle to the hinterlands.” .

Having been in very similar shoes, I think there is not at all a lack of leadership. I think it is that the leadership is not what is wanted by those on this thread – and other threads – that speak of, for example, “sterile and perfunctory celebration of Sunday Mass”

I think the leadership he is showing is not unlike my own leadership, which would be to support the pastoral team that exists because I keep it in existence. Because it serves effectively and in the best interest of the parish – in the determination that belongs fully and exclusively with the pastor.

I know that I have often had liturgy committees composed of long-serving women who formed a cohort that worked well together, that were each hard-working, and that articulated the position of my parish in the face of any sway from someone new to the committee offering any other variation in direction than the one I charted for it…that is, any that might take the committee out of perfect sync with the diocesan office of liturgy and worship.

These women were very devoted, very self-giving…and had the added virtue of being very attentive to the mind of the diocesan offices, which I greatly appreciated.

On the other hand, they were happily not at all interested in the excessive interest in such matters as lace in surplices or vesture associated with by-gone eras.

I was pleased to have those long serving who were invested in the parish through major gifts or even service across generations…they had a sense of ownership and stewardship that was a continuity from one pastor to another. I found them to be always a great gift.

I can tell you this much: you would have no place whatsoever in any liturgy committee of a parish with which I was associated, based on what you have typed in your posts…not least to the other clergy and myself. In my case you would barred from any service in any capacity to the parish for the things said and done across the threads of this forum.

Let us also be crystal clear: these people are not “liturgical ministers”. They are your parish’s liturgical ministers – without quotation marks or any other qualifier – because your pastor, the competent ecclesiastical authority, has duly constituted them such. If there are people who do not like or accept that selection…that is too bad for them. They are out of luck and without recourse. Except submission to their parish priest.

Perhaps the pastoral leadership that is best to be applied is making that perfectly clear to those in dissent to the pastor’s authority on this matter.

Your parish priest and his pastoral team will certainly be in my prayers.