Elected Catholic Democrats to release "Statement of Principles"

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estesbob:
So if you beleive it is impossible to eliminate abortion in this country(which is nonsense) how does that translate into i supporting pro-aboprtion politicans??

In doing so are you not particiapting in the intrinsic evil of abortion???

I think this is not a matter of politiciang the Church as much as it is a matter of you not wantng the Church to interfere with your political beliefs. Does you faith form your politics or does you politics form your faith?
My faith influences a great deal about my politics. Find me a true pro-life candidate, and I’ll vote for him/her. I’m not going to surrender my vote like a lemming to someone who’s idea of being pro-life is phoning into the Roe V. Wade march once a year, telling people they are doing a good job…and then proceeds to bomb a country and preside over executions.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Errrrrr…actually, I do, according to Lumen Gentium…

Admonishment ought to first be private. But if one’s sinful dissent is public, their recant should also be public. This is how the dissent of Fr. Charles Curran was handled. Nobody in their right mind would quote from Fr. Curran as though he were a reliable source of Catholic theology since the Holy See has publically stated that he is not qualified nor is he mandated as a Catholic theologian, precisely due to his failure to recant from his dissenting position. (Although how he and Fr. Hans Kung are still allowed to be a priest boggles the mind.)

The public dissent of politicians should be corrected (recanted) publically. Failure to recant from a dissenting position is subject to canonical penalties. Yet, has there been any penalties??? Hasn’t there been a heresy case filed in the Archdiocese of Boston against John Kerry? What has the Ordinary done with this case?

If penalties were indeed imposed, it does no good to keep it a secret for sinful dissent that was public.

I’m very pleased that he has. What I am not so pleased about is that he has not publically and specifically censured public dissent of politicians.
How the holy father deals with dissenting politicians and priests, that’s his decision not yours! Your not the pope, Benedict is. Are criticizing John Paul II and saying he wasn’t a very good pope? Sure sounds that way. Don’t take powers that don’t belong to you. I don’t like the idea of dissenting politicians taking holy communion myself, that’s something that should be settled long before they enter the communion rail. Do you claim to know canon law better than the pope? You don’t.
 
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frommi:
I don’t think they have a death agenda…that simply doesn’t make sense. You have to at least recognize that they aren’t running around advocating people have abortions.
By supporting PP, NARAL, and NOW without questioning their motives and agenda, sadly, they are advocating people have abortions.
And I still can’t figure out why anyone would base their vote solely on someones willingness to vote in a way that will be overturned by the supreme court.
If I understand you correctly, and I’m not sure that I do :o , I think your wrong about that. If GWB hadn’t been elected we’d have had 2 arch-liberals bent on interpreting the Constitution according to the ideology of the far left instead of 2 constructionist who will interpret the Constitution based on what it says, not on what they read into it. And that is very important.
For better or worse, it doesn’t seem all that possible for us to legislate abortion away.
Tell that to the state legislators of Kansas and Mississippi. 😉
And it is damaging to the political process for anyone to be a single issue voter. Particularly when you cast your vote in a way that leads to no progress on the issue you advocate so strongly for.
Well, be assured that I do not vote on a single issue, and unlike you, I am not so pessimistic about the candidates I chose being able to make progress (perhaps not total success, but progress) on the issue of abortion.
We need good leaders, but isn’t it a little strange that abortions have gone up in this country with a Republican government?
Then why have PP, NARAL and NOW been taking the kudos for abortions going down? They have you know, and it’s in part because of the Republican government we have had the good fortune to have in place instead of a Democratic one that aids and abets these death dealing institutions with money and political support.
 
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bones_IV:
How the holy father deals with dissenting politicians and priests, that’s his decision not yours! Your not the pope, Benedict is. Are criticizing John Paul II and saying he wasn’t a very good pope? Sure sounds that way. Don’t take powers that don’t belong to you. I don’t like the idea of dissenting politicians taking holy communion myself, that’s something that should be settled long before they enter the communion rail. Do you claim to know canon law better than the pope? You don’t.
I’m not “taking any powers”, but I am acting in accord with Lumen Gentium. St. Catherine of Sienna was critical of the pope’s decisions. I have the right to manifest my opinion. If that pops your gasket, so be it. You flaming me for exercising my right and obligition as a Catholic is absurd.
 
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JOHNYJ:
Abortion and Gay Rights are the rocks that stops Catholics from supporting democrats. Except for that the democratic party is obviously the more christian of the 2 parties. To put it more bluntly . If it wouldn’t be for abortion Jesus would be a Communist befor he would be a Republican .
Wow, I finally get to see a liberal openly admit that the democrats are commies. That just makes my day… 😃
 
Hi frommi, a correction from my previous response to you:

In response to your comment:
For better or worse, it doesn’t seem all that possible for us to legislate abortion away.
I wrote: “Tell that to the state legislators of Kansas and Mississippi.” That should have been South Dakota, not Kansas (must have been in Oz with Dorothy and Toto or something! 😛 ).
 
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frommi:
I tend to believe that even one life taken for reasons other than God’s is an evil thing. It’s not about numbers. One life is just as important as the next.
Then why did you imply that there might be something worse than the abortion debate (47 million dead) looming on the horizon? Now if you indeed recognize the worth of one human life then that unborn being in the womb deserves to live. Certainly God would never have reason to take human life. It seems there may be some things we can agree upon.

We can thank God for that.
 
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yochumjy:
Thanks for the link. I may be reading your post wrong, but it seems to suggest that I’m giving Clinton some sort of acknowledgement for starting the decrease and I am not. I wasn’t actually sure when the decline started, but I knew there has been decline since he was in office. It is good to know the decline started with Bush Sr.

Thanks again
Then I sincerely apologize for misinterpreting your post. Often, when the Clinton years statistic is provided, it is used as evidence that the best way to beat abortion is not by the Republican method of outlawing it but by the Democratic method of puting more money into the welfare state.

My mistake.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
I’m not “taking any powers”, but I am acting in accord with Lumen Gentium. St. Catherine of Sienna was critical of the pope’s decisions. I have the right to manifest my opinion. If that pops your gasket, so be it. You flaming me for exercising my right and obligition as a Catholic is absurd.
Your right you do have the right to your opinions. You avoided my question. Are you saying that John Paul II didn’t do his job? Funny cause Cardinal Arinze on Febuary 11, 2005 said “The answer is clear. If a person says they are in favor of killing unborn babies whether they be four thousand or five thousand, then they are in favor of killing them. I will be in favor of killing them next week and next year. So, unborn babies, too bad for you. I am in favor that you should be killed, then the person turns around and says I want to recieve holy communion. Do you need a Cardinal to answer to that?”

Arroyo mentioned that Archbishop Flynn said that the Holy See was open to allowing homosexual activists recieve holy communion. To which Arinze responded, “No, no, no. You see let’s get it clear. These rainbow sash people, are they saying we are really homosexuals, we intend to remain so and to recieve holy communion. The question arises: The Catechism of the Catholic Church. It says that it is not condemning a person for having a homosexual tendency. We don’t condemn anyone for that. But a person stands condemned for acting upon it.”
 
Ecclesia de Eucharistia Section 37:

"The judgement of one’s grace obviously belongs to the person involved since it is a question of examining one’s conscience. However, in cases of outward conduct which is seriously, clearly and steadfastly contrary to the moral norm, the Church, in her pastoral concern for the good order and out of respect for the sacrament, cannot fail to feel to be directly involved. The Code of Canon Law refers to this situation of a manifest lack of proper moral disposition when it states that those who “obstinately persist in manifest grave sin” are not to be admitted to Eucharistic communion."76

As to the reason why the Church didn’t delcare pro-abortion politicians excommunicated is not a simple answer. Again if the Church’s teachings were enforced as they should be, would have simple answers. What’s the problem? I have no idea. It apprears to me that politics has provided too many with an excuse to set aside what the Church teaches for other reasons. Itsjustdave1988, I think it is our bishops and the Vatican’s failure to communicate John Paul II and Benedict as well. This pope understands just as the previous pope did, the effects that the media can have on people. BE PATIENT! And pray. All told it’s unfaithfulness! But then again, if we don’t change we will “be sent into a land which” we “do not know”. Unless us sleepy Catholics wake up, we’ll perish like Sodom and Gomorrah did, only a HECK OF A LOT WORSE!
Itsjustdave1988, I agree with you that the bishops cannot seem to agree on the issue of pro-abortion politicians and communion. And it’s a terrible source of scandal. I think that it was difficult to deal with issue during the heat of the presidential election in 2004 as it would make it look like the bishops were determining the politics of this nation. Now the time is to act on excommunicating defiant politicians.

See this link
 
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Brendan:
Have you every read the Leo XIII’s Papal Encyclical “Rerum Novarum” and then JP-II’s Encyclical “Centesimus Annus”, commerating Rerum Novarum?

Both declare Communism to be a moral evil.

And what a statement " If it wouldn’t be for abortion …" That’s pretty much like saying, “If it wasn’t for Booth, Mrs Lincoln would have enjoyed the play”

Sheesh!
The Russian Form of Communism.More accurately called Lenninism or Stalinism has diferences from pure communism of the Karl Marx variety.
Also the Republican party under President Bush is such an anti-poor,anti-worker party.
That has very little in common with Jesus teachings.
 
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JOHNYJ:
The Russian Form of Communism.More accurately called Lenninism or Stalinism has diferences from pure communism of the Karl Marx variety.
Also the Republican party under President Bush is such an anti-poor,anti-worker party.
That has very little in common with Jesus teachings.
What are his faith based initiatives about? Who are they benefitting? He feels these to be the most effective delivery system rather than a cold bloated government.
 
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buffalo:
What are his faith based initiatives about? Who are they benefitting? He feels these to be the most effective delivery system rather than a cold bloated government.
The purpose of faith based initiatives is to give government money to help those organizations that have programs that work i.e. drug treatment programs, programs to help homeless, etc. I believe that the thought (and I agree) is that government can’t do everything and if a private source is getting results, they should be assisted.
 
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JOHNYJ:
The Russian Form of Communism.More accurately called Lenninism or Stalinism has diferences from pure communism of the Karl Marx variety.
The big difference between Marxism and, say, Stalinism is this: Marx only advocated mass murder as a means of transforming society into utopia. Stalin, and every other Marxist/Marxian leader ever, has taken the next step actually using mass murder to try to perfect society.
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JOHNYJ:
Also the Republican party under President Bush is such an anti-poor,anti-worker party.
:rolleyes:

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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JOHNYJ:
Also the Republican party under President Bush is such an anti-poor,anti-worker party.
That has very little in common with Jesus teachings.
I’m sorry, but maybe my Scripture is a little hazzy. Where in the Bible did Jesus condemn the Roman Empire for its inability to help the poor? Where did Jesus command the leading government figures to take responsibility for helping the poor?

He didn’t.

Jesus Christ said *you *do it. That is entirely consistent with the beliefs of the Republican Party and George W. Bush. If you want the world to change, *you *need to get out there and do it. Don’t rely on the government as the solution to the world’s problems. That’s how totalitarian governments come into being and the rights of human beings get crushed.
 
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bones_IV:
Your right you do have the right to your opinions. You avoided my question. Are you saying that John Paul II didn’t do his job?
I think John Paul II did a wonderful job, but I think he could have done better. For examples, see the article by Fr. Brian Harrison, here…

Will Pope John Paul II Be Styled “the Great”?
By Fr. Brian W. Harrison
*This Rock, *Vol. 14, No. 8, October 2003
 
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bones_IV:
Itsjustdave1988, I agree with you that the bishops cannot seem to agree on the issue of pro-abortion politicians and communion. …
See this link
Yes, and this is a source of my frustration. We need more St. Ambrose type responses to public sin, I think.

This continues to be an on-going discussion in my Catholic men’s group. I belong to the Diocese of Colorado Springs, where the matter-of-fact response of Bishop Michael Sheridan has been criticized by some within the diocese. I tend to agree with Bishop Sheridan.

See his articles can be read online, here:

A Pastoral Letter to the Catholic Faithful of the Diocese of Colordado Springs on the Duties of Catholic Politicians and Voters
By Bishop Michael J. Sheridan
Diocese of Colorado Springs
1 May 2004

*Reactions to Pastoral Letter are Overwhelming
*******By Bishop Michael J. Sheridan
Diocese of Colorado Springs
2 June 2004

*Response to Pastoral Letter continues
*******By Bishop Michael J. Sheridan
Diocese of Colorado Springs
7 July 2004

Cardinal Ratzinger and the Catholic Voter
By Bishop Michael J. Sheridan
Diocese of Colorado Springs
6 October 2004
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Yes, and this is a source of my frustration. We need more St. Ambrose type responses to public sin, I think.

This continues to be an on-going discussion in my Catholic men’s group. I belong to the Diocese of Colorado Springs, where the matter-of-fact response of Bishop Michael Sheridan has been criticized by some within the diocese. I tend to agree with Bishop Sheridan.

See his articles can be read online, here:

A Pastoral Letter to the Catholic Faithful of the Diocese of Colordado Springs on the Duties of Catholic Politicians and Voters
By Bishop Michael J. Sheridan
Diocese of Colorado Springs
1 May 2004

Reactions to Pastoral Letter are Overwhelming%between%http://www.diocs.org/CPC/Corner/newspaper_view.cfm?year=2004&month=June
By Bishop Michael J. Sheridan
Diocese of Colorado Springs
2 June 2004

Response to Pastoral Letter continues%between%http://www.diocs.org/CPC/Corner/newspaper_view.cfm?year=2004&month=July
By Bishop Michael J. Sheridan
Diocese of Colorado Springs
7 July 2004

Cardinal Ratzinger and the Catholic Voter
By Bishop Michael J. Sheridan
Diocese of Colorado Springs
6 October 2004
You have a right to be upset. Many of the bishops don’t have a good understanding of the episcobacy themselves. The roots of that are bad training in the seminaries. Even after the new directories for seminaries passed, many dioceses ignored them. As a result many pastors are dancing their merry way to hell.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Errrrrr…actually, I do, according to Lumen Gentium…

Admonishment ought to first be private. But if one’s sinful dissent is public, their recant should also be public. This is how the dissent of Fr. Charles Curran was handled. Nobody in their right mind would quote from Fr. Curran as though he were a reliable source of Catholic theology since the Holy See has publically stated that he is not qualified nor is he mandated as a Catholic theologian, precisely due to his failure to recant from his dissenting position. (Although how he and Fr. Hans Kung are still allowed to be a priest boggles the mind.)

The public dissent of politicians should be corrected (recanted) publically. Failure to recant from a dissenting position is subject to canonical penalties. Yet, has there been any penalties??? Hasn’t there been a heresy case filed in the Archdiocese of Boston against John Kerry? What has the Ordinary done with this case?

If penalties were indeed imposed, it does no good to keep it a secret for sinful dissent that was public.

I’m very pleased that he has. What I am not so pleased about is that he has not publically and specifically censured public dissent of politicians.
You are nearly correct on everything except one point that I must make. IF Kerry has been reprimanded that would be by his archbishop- now cardinal - who is obliged to make it public if Kerry persists in heresy by publicly flaunting his support for abortion. The holy father is not to blame; the Cardinal is. I assure you that if the holy father reprimanded Kerry we would see information about in the media. But the fact of the matter is this, the hierarchy have the responsibility for handling heretics in their own specific, dioceses. Don’t blame the pope.
 
It’s ironic that we have 79 posts on a document we haven’t even seen yet. I want to see who signed it. Here’s my problem: when I think of Democratic *politicians * + “primacy of conscience”, I get :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
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