Elected Catholic Democrats to release "Statement of Principles"

[mike182d]

frommi:

God doesn’t choose suicide…or euthanasia…

Correct.

or abortion…or the death penalty…or war…

That’s are ego deciding that we should be God

So, the entire half of the Hebrew Scriptures where God commands the Israelites to war is fabricated? Were the greatest theologians of the Church’s history who developed a just war theory in terrible heresy?

According to proper Catholic teaching and theology, the death penalty and war are *not *absolute evils.

 

[frommi]

estesbob:

So how many exections have you attened?? I have stood in prayerful vigil at a couple of dozen or. I also have thousands of hours of volunteer work at Crisi pregnancy Centers. How about you?

You say you are pro-life yet support the party of abortion (1.3 milllion children dead a year) while opposing the party that , for the most part, supports capital punishment, perhaps 100 executed a year. The mental gymnasitcs one has to go through to rationalize that is a wonder to behold.

I’m not really in support of any political party, quite frankly.

The fact of the matter is this isn’t about politicial party affiliation.

However, I take offense at people who want Bishops to use their croziers as blunt objects and beat politicians with them.

I’m also not rationalizing abortion, thank you very much. I’m no fan of abortion rights. I simply don’t think legislating it is going to push it out of existence. Look at the South Dakota Law, no abortions unless the mother’s life is in danger. Who exaclty is going to determine what that means? When is a mother’s ‘life in danger’? It leaves so much room for discussion…the legislation will be fruitless…what’s the point?

I would have a problem with a politician who would procure an abortion…but that’s a long way from deciding their might be more than one way to end the practice of abortion.

And I love that you continue to bring up numbers as they apply to abortion versus the death penalty, when I think we can be quite certain that if the numbers were reversed…you wouldn’t be any less upset about abortion.

We need an ethic of life…cradle to grave…not a bunch of lunatics who believe that life begins at conception and ends at birth.

 

[frommi]

mike182d:

Correct.
According to proper Catholic teaching and theology, the death penalty and war are *not *absolute evils.

So…show me where in recent history (say the last 50 years), you can theologically justify either one?

 

[geezerbob]

frommi:

So…show me where in recent history (say the last 50 years), you can theologically justify either one?

Both of these things are off topic and have already been discussed numerous times here on CAF.

 

[estesbob]

frommi:

So…show me where in recent history (say the last 50 years), you can theologically justify either one?

The Church has not categorically condemned either the Death Penatly or War as intrinsicly evil. They have done so with abortion. Nor has the Church condemned any war in the last 50 years as being unjust nor has it declared the death penalty, as practiced in the US, as being unjust.

You are, as awlays, desperately trying to chage the subject away from your support of a political party that aids and abets the death of 1.2 million children a year

 

[estesbob]

frommi:

We need an ethic of life…cradle to grave…not a bunch of lunatics who believe that life begins at conception and ends at birth.

You , as always, adress such an important issue with a bumper sticker mentality. You remark above shows not only a profound ingorance of what the pro-life minisrty does but also buys into the Pro-abortion(and Democrat party) attitude that children are better off dead tha living in a world where the social progreams are not as comprehensive as you wou like them to be.

You also didnt answer my question. How many executions have you attneded? How many hours have you volunteered to help women in crisis pregnancies? Have you ever picketed an abortion clinic? Prayed ouside one?

Ill you havent done any of the above-you talk the talk but dont walk the talk. i also supect that have on numerous occassions you have voted for those who support the killing of 1.2 million children a year.

 

[frommi]

estesbob:

You are, as awlays, desperately trying to chage the subject away from your support of a political party that aids and abets the death of 1.2 million children a year

I’m not desperately trying to do anything. I’m just not sure what issue you have with a consistent ethic of life, and not being played for a fool by politicians who want your vote, but have no interest in taking on the fight that you seem to so desperately want.

Let me ask you this…there are Catholics on the supreme court…are they supposed to intrepret the constitution or canon law when this inevitably lands before them?

What if Justice Alito sides to overturn the New Hampshire parental notification law?

 

[mike182d]

frommi:

So…show me where in recent history (say the last 50 years), you can theologically justify either one?

Have you studied just war theory at all? I don’t mean those pamphlets sent out by the USCCB today as the Church is in a bit of confusion over how to define just war in the present era. But, rather, have you read anything by Saints like Augustine and Aquinas?

Just war theologians over the past 2000 years have stated that, to quote Aquinas, “what is evil about war is not the death of men who are going to die anyway.” What makes a war just is right intention. If the war is about domination and power (i.e. nearly all Roman wars) those are unjust. But, if the war is to secure a social order, to maintain a just and ordered society, then it is a just one.

That being said, World War I, I think, was unjust but World War II was just, and the Gulf War was just (note: I don’t mention the current Iraqi war because it is not a war seperate from the Gulf War that began in the early 90s. The first Gulf War never ended but rather paused with a conditional ceasefire, Saddam broke nearly ever term of the ceasefire, and here we are today. They are both the same war).

Furthermore, it is not the place of the Church to declare a war just or unjust. They provide the guidance but governments, those entrusted with the care of societies, are responsible for making this decision.

 

[estesbob]

frommi:

I’m not desperately trying to do anything. I’m just not sure what issue you have with a consistent ethic of life, and not being played for a fool by politicians who want your vote, but have no interest in taking on the fight that you seem to so desperately want.

Let me ask you this…there are Catholics on the supreme court…are they supposed to intrepret the constitution or canon law when this inevitably lands before them?

What if Justice Alito sides to overturn the New Hampshire parental notification law?

Once more we need only look at the teachigs of our church. Alito should uphold the Constitution of the United States. Hopfully he will not agree that our Constititoion conatins a right to abortion(very few legal scholars do). The Church makes a distinction between a legislator who can change the law and a judge who is sworn to uphold the law.

You continually try and make a moral equaivalence between aboprtion , war and captial punishments. Our Church recognizes their is NO moral equivalence. Abortion is intrinsicaly evil and can never be tolerated-the same does not, in the teachings of our church, hold true for war and capital punishment.

 

[frommi]

estesbob:

Once more we need only look at the teachigs of our church. Alito should uphold the Constitution of the United States. Hopfully he will not agree that our Constititoion conatins a right to abortion(very few legal scholars do). The Church makes a distinction between a legislator who can change the law and a judge who is sworn to uphold the law.

You continually try and make a moral equaivalence between aboprtion , war and captial punishments. Our Church recognizes their is NO moral equivalence. Abortion is intrinsicaly evil and can never be tolerated-the same does not, in the teachings of our church, hold true for war and capital punishment.

So…wait a second…if the supreme court were to continue to agree that a constitutional right exists for abortion…where does that leave your campaign against Catholic politicians? Why does it matter how they vote then?

And, this isn’t about moral equivalence. You are pro-life, in all circumstances…or you are not. It’s very black and white. No one should call themselves pro-life, then make some weak argument about how the church says that capital punishment can be ok in some cases…when the church has said those cases are virtually non existent in today’s day and age.

Pro Life or not…period…end of story.

And for any politician to claim that title and not be pro-life in all circumstances is hypocritical.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

1 life is too many

I agree. But how I vote is based upon the platform of each party. Each party sucks, but the Democratic platform more than just sucks, it is evil beyond all belief. They have embraced abortion and embryonic stem cell research within their platform. John Kerry supported cloning of human beings for research purposes, so long as it resulted in an abortion That is an abomination that actively supports the so-called “right” to commit 1.2M abortions per year. All lip service aside, the Democratic platform supports abortion on demand.

This is an issue that trumps all others precisely because 1.2M innocent lives are institutionally killed, while each party’s handling of national security may more or less suck, and affect the lives of volunteer armed forces.

I’m an Air Force Officer who has a sworn duty to voluntarily put my life at risk in subjection to the lawful orders of the officers appointed over me, to include the Commander-in-Chief. Thus, if I die in war, tragic as that is, I do so as a result of my volutary duty to my nation. It is untenable to compare a soldier’s death to an aborted soul. A soldier is well-trained and has a fighting chance, and has volunteered to place himself in harms way. An aborted soul had no such chance.

The Democratic platform states:

“Because we believe in the privacy and equality of women, we stand proudly for a woman’s right to choose consistent with Roe v. Wade, and regardless of her ability to pay. We stand firmly against Republican efforts to undermine that right… Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.”

As much as I am disgusted with Republican partisan performance, there is *nothing *so absolutely evil in the Republican platform as that which is enthusiastically and “proudly” embraced by the Democratic party in their “right to choose to murder of innocent unborn babies” platform plank.

Given the choice between two evils, we have a moral duty to select the lesser of the evils. Democratic party has sold their soul to Satan, and until they repent, they deserve nothing but admonishment.

If any Democrat’s “statement of principles” does not include an absolute denial of the Democratic platform as written, then they too are complicit in evil.

 

[estesbob]

itsjustdave1988:

I agree.I’m an Air Force Officer who has a sworn duty to voluntarily put my life at risk in subjection to the lawful orders of the officers appointed over me, to include the Commander-in-Chief. Thus, if I die in war, tragic as that is, I do so as a result of my volutary duty to my nation. It is untenable to compare a soldier’s death to an aborted soul. A soldier is well-trained and has a fighting chance, and has volunteered to place himself in harms way. An aborted soul had no such chance.

.

Dave:

Thank you for your service to our Counrty.

 

[Isidore_AK]

I have to disagree with you on being anti-abortion, and pro-death penalty. They are NOT morally equivalent. One can hold to the ‘middle ground’ as it were, and still be a ‘good Catholic’.

Some people just need killing…

 

[bones_IV]

Isidore_AK:

I have to disagree with you on being anti-abortion, and pro-death penalty. They are NOT morally equivalent. One can hold to the ‘middle ground’ as it were, and still be a ‘good Catholic’.

Some people just need killing…

Isidore, let’s remind him/her that the Church’s stance on the death penalty is that it is not intrinsically evil. Some folks when they equate the death penalty with abortion have severe case of BLINDNESS!

 

[mike182d]

itsjustdave1988:

I’m an Air Force Officer who has a sworn duty to voluntarily put my life at risk in subjection to the lawful orders of the officers appointed over me, to include the Commander-in-Chief. Thus, if I die in war, tragic as that is, I do so as a result of my volutary duty to my nation. It is untenable to compare a soldier’s death to an aborted soul. A soldier is well-trained and has a fighting chance, and has volunteered to place himself in harms way. An aborted soul had no such chance.

I, too, commend your admirable service to this country.

Thank you, very much.

 

[frommi]

bones_IV:

Isidore, let’s remind him/her that the Church’s stance on the death penalty is that it is not intrinsically evil. Some folks when they equate the death penalty with abortion have severe case of BLINDNESS!

I’m not necessairly equating the two…I’m simply saying that you are Pro-Life or you aren’t. You are correct, the church probably wouldn’t have a problem with you being anti-abortion and somewhat pro-death penalty. But that is miles away from being Pro-Life.

 

[estesbob]

frommi:

I’m not necessairly equating the two…I’m simply saying that you are Pro-Life or you aren’t. You are correct, the church probably wouldn’t have a problem with you being anti-abortion and somewhat pro-death penalty. But that is miles away from being Pro-Life.

You either adhere to the teachings of the Church or you dont. A Catholic politician who supports the death penatly is adhering to the teachings of the Church. One who supports abortion is not.

35 of those who signed the so called Catholic Statement of Principals voted agajnst the partial birth abortion ban. So much for being “catholic”-so much for “principals”

Will you vote for someone who is pro-abortion? Do you walk the talk?

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

frommi:

I’m not necessairly equating the two…I’m simply saying that you are Pro-Life or you aren’t. You are correct, the church probably wouldn’t have a problem with you being anti-abortion and somewhat pro-death penalty. But that is miles away from being Pro-Life.

The death penalty can be a means used by the state to protect life. Supporting the legitimate use of the death penalty cannot be said to automatically disqualify one from being pro-life. If one is Catholic, one has no basis for such an exaggerated claim.

 

[buffalo]

Andreas Hofer:

The death penalty can be a means used by the state to protect life. Supporting the legitimate use of the death penalty cannot be said to automatically disqualify one from being pro-life. If one is Catholic, one has no basis for such an exaggerated claim.

Right to life - no abortion, and no death penalty

Pro-Life - no abortion, and death penalty as legitimate defense.

 

[Fitz]

Joe Kelley:

It appears to me that they are desperately trying to find a formula that will attract pro-life voters without doing anything that would offend their pro-abortion financial base.

I agree with you totally. Do you think they have succeeded? I don’t.