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estesbob
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*No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what’s called the ‘right to choice’ of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion," *
Cardinal Burke
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Cardinal Burke
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estesbob
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Can you post any link form the Vatican, church documents or a member of the Magestrium to back up your assertion. I have.Thank goodness, because your interpretation of the meaning of these passages from Evangelium vitae is totally wrong. They have nothing to do with reproductive rights.
And even if you are just posting quotes, you are still selecting and filtering in order to make a point - which is a form of personal interpretation and subject to error.
Case in point, I learn more about your view of women from the passages you use to argue against my position, than I do about the Church’s view of reproductive rights. It sounds to me like you want a federal ban on birth control as well as abortion. That’s pretty radical considering not even the Bishops are calling for such a ban. In fact they keep explicitly stating that their fight with the Obama administration is NOT about birth control.
So tell me: How much control do you think men are entitled to have over women? Seems to me like that is the real debate between us.
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bellasbane
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CMatt25
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Rence, I think it was you who once directed me to the actual bishop’s guide. You were correct and I found one doesn’t need to go further than the introduction to see just how balanced it is. It even warns against reducing moral concerns to a single issue or two. Talks about abortion and marriage but speaks as well about the sick, the poor, the hungry, the vulnerable, immigrants and war.Yes, when I read Faithful Citizenship, I definitely see a balanced approach to voting
Even clearly saying it is not a voters guide nor a direction on how Catholics must vote.
“It does not offer a voters guide, scorecard of issues or direction on how to vote,” the introduction adds. “It applies Catholic moral principles to a range of important issues and warns against misguided appeals to ‘conscience’ to ignore fundamental moral claims, to reduce Catholic moral concerns to one or two matters, or to justify choices simply to advance partisan, ideological or personal interests.”
The introduction lists six “current and fundamental problems, some involving opposition to intrinsic evils and others raising serious moral questions:”
– Abortion “and other threats to the lives and dignity of others who are vulnerable, sick or unwanted.”
– Conscience threats to Catholic ministries in health care, education and social services.
– “Intensifying efforts to redefine marriage” or to undermine it as “the permanent, faithful and fruitful union of one man and one woman.”
– An economic crisis that has increased national and global unemployment, poverty and hunger, requiring efforts to “protect those who are poor and vulnerable as well as future generations.”
– “The failure to repair a broken immigration system.”
– “Serious moral questions” raised by wars, terror and violence, “particularly the absence of justice, security and peace in the Holy Land and throughout the Middle East.”
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1103920.htm
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irishpatrick
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That is, with respect, the sort of attitude that allows abortion to remain legal. I posted a definition of murder that without doubt would include abortion–yet just because a court will likely reject that definition, you will argue against abortion being murder. Somehow saying it is intentional killing softens the reality for people with such ridiculous nuanced positions.
Yet, for the vast majority of people when one person intentionally takes the life of an innocent human, it is murder. Everything else is justifying nonsense and it leads to abortion remaining legal, since there are always people willing to pose “fancy argument” that go against common sense.
Did Cain murder Abel?
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irishpatrick
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It isn’t murder, it is just killing innocents–that makes it fine. One has to wonder why some people fight so hard against calling abortion murder–is it to make their own heart feel less troubled? Perhaps in their minds “killing” and innocent is somehow “better” than murdering an innocent.
But, here is the kicker: that dead growing person doesn’t care what we call it, because that innocent person is gone!
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irishpatrick
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Folks,
There is an awful lof of putting the cart before the horse in this thread.
If we do not stand for life, all human life from conception to natural death, then it makes no difference at all what the economy does.
The two first things we are supposed to do:
If Romney chooses Condi, that is a signal that the life issue does not play as strongly as it should in his top prirorities. IMO
There is an awful lof of putting the cart before the horse in this thread.
If we do not stand for life, all human life from conception to natural death, then it makes no difference at all what the economy does.
The two first things we are supposed to do:
- Acknowledge our sin.
- Go and sin no more.
If Romney chooses Condi, that is a signal that the life issue does not play as strongly as it should in his top prirorities. IMO
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estesbob
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So the answer to my question is “no I cant”
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CMatt25
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I don’t speak for Catholics but even I know Cardinal Burke is one Cardinal. I also know he’s one of your personal favorites to quote.
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bellasbane
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Maybe if you asked a direct question, I could give you a direct answer.
On the other hand, you don’t seem to mind ignoring direct questions when I ask you to answer one - bit of a double standard, don’t you think?
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CMatt25
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Thank goodness, because your interpretation of the meaning of these passages from Evangelium vitae is totally wrong. They have nothing to do with reproductive rights.
And even if you are just posting quotes, you are still selecting and filtering in order to make a point - which is a form of personal interpretation and subject to error.
Case in point, I learn more about your view of women from the passages you use to argue against my position, than I do about the Church’s view of reproductive rights. It sounds to me like you want a federal ban on birth control as well as abortion. That’s pretty radical considering not even the Bishops are calling for such a ban. In fact they keep explicitly stating that their fight with the Obama administration is NOT about birth control.
So tell me: How much control do you think men are entitled to have over women? Seems to me like that is the real debate between us.
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Jeanne_S
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Catholics are required to vote for the candidate that most closely aligns with the five non-negotiables of our faith. In this case,that would be Romney. Conversly,if you went back to the JFK era,it would be a democrat.He ,by today’s standards would be considered a conservative. Sittin out,and not voting,is not the way to go IMHO.It’s the only choice I have. It is clear from posts here that we as American Catholics are required to vote for the GOP candidates and for none other. I reject that and as it seems to be an article of faith on the Forum that one may not vote for a Democrat under any circumstances, the only alternative I have is to pretty much not vote at all (I do vote on the state, county, and municipal level, however.) So, I pass on the presidential candidates.
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CMatt25
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irishpatrick
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The Bishops WERE NOT, using their own words, “offering a voters guide.” Yes, we are NOT to be single issue voters, and I know of no one who is literally a single issue voter. Yet, unless we acknowledge we are going in the wrong direction, how can we ever hope to get onto a better path? Killing the unborn MUST stop–period.
Tell me, during WWII, if Catholics had a full grasp of the Hollcaust, do you think that it might have been morally correct for those Catholics to place the ending of the Holocaust at the very top of the list, above all others?
How about slavery? Would the stopping of slavery be enough to rise to the highest place on the list, far above all others?
No one denies there are many important issues–yet we must take care of the most critical needs first and work down the list. We must stop the killing/slaughter of God’s innocent ones, who are lives crying out for protection and yet so many do not even care to listen!
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pnewton
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Nothing in here even approaches the level of crimination that I addressed. The Cardinal brings to home a problem we see in many Catholics. Voting for Obama can in many cases be material cooperation with abortion and thus mortally sinful. However, it does not have to be. Not all who vote for Obama commit mortal sin.
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pnewton
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But what he says is good and noteworthy. All Catholics would do well to heed his words. Likewise, Faithful Citizenship is good teaching. I would not dismiss what Cardinal Burke says the way some here dismiss Faithful Citizenship. Both are good and they do not contradict each other.
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pnewton
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Are you saying Catholics are required to vote for Romney? That certainly is way beyond what the Church teaches.
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Jeffrey
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Nice deflection.
Thank goodness, because your interpretation of the meaning of these passages from Evangelium vitae is totally wrong. They have nothing to do with reproductive rights.
And even if you are just posting quotes, you are still selecting and filtering in order to make a point - which is a form of personal interpretation and subject to error.
Case in point, I learn more about your view of women from the passages you use to argue against my position, than I do about the Church’s view of reproductive rights. It sounds to me like you want a federal ban on birth control as well as abortion. That’s pretty radical considering not even the Bishops are calling for such a ban. In fact they keep explicitly stating that their fight with the Obama administration is NOT about birth control.
So tell me: How much control do you think men are entitled to have over women? Seems to me like that is the real debate between us.
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estesbob
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You said:Maybe if you asked a direct question, I could give you a direct answer.
On the other hand, you don’t seem to mind ignoring direct questions when I ask you to answer one - bit of a double standard, don’t you think?
That statement is not true
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estesbob
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Not required to vote for Romney-cant vote for Obama
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