Elizabeth Smart's father announces he is gay

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I believe God created Eve to be a suitable mate for Adam. From the moment of her creation Adam pronounced her flesh of his flesh and blood of his blood. This creates a marriage. I don’t think there was any ceremony just an announcement from Adam. This is consistent with Catholic marriage where the couple confers the sacrament of marriage on each other.

Before you make the case that this is evidence of Celestial marriage, let me say that the marriage took place in the created world, albeit in an unfallen world, and not in heaven.

There was no mention of the marriage continuing on after the death of these two.
 
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I’m not going to play this game. If you wish to comment on the points I made, fine. If you have an argument to make, fine. That is the normal course of a discussion/debate.
 
mtolympus said:
My first question is: Do you believe God married Adam and Eve?
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What exactly is the question?

Are you asking if Adam and Eve had a marriage ceremony officiated by God himself? God in person? His voice only?

Please define “God married them”.
 
If the Fall had not occurred would death have entered the world?
If death didn’t enter the world, would Adam and Eve still be married?

(This particular Mormon speculation game has been played before.)

Dear Mormons, God is omniscient and prepared for us a Savior. As St. Paul taught, where sin increased, grace increased. Our heavenly kingdom is a better place than the garden. You can’t say, what was in the garden is what would have been, if only there was not that first sin. That is your view as a man, but that is not the view of God.

Jesus Christ is our evidence that something better, has been prepared. Jesus Christ taught, there is no marriage in heaven. Should we despair, that God has forsaken us and would destroy our love between each other? Of course not, we should strain forward, with all creation, to the day that all that is prefigured about heaven, in the sacraments, are fulfilled.
 
Stephen168 said:
No.
What is the next two questions?
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Thanks Stephen, I really don’t care how you answer. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion. I am only trying to show what I believe is biblical evidence for eternal marriage.

1- Were Adam and Eve married by God?
Genesis 1:28, Genesis 2:24-25, “What therefore God hath joined together” See Matthew 19:4-6.

2- How long would Adam and Eve be married if Adam had not transgressed and there was no fall?
When Adam fell, sin entered the world and because of sin death also. Romans 5:12. Without the fall of Adam there world be no sin and no death and Adam and Eve would have remained married for eternity.

3- Did the sacrifice of Jesus Christ completely pay for the sins of Adam?
If the atonement of Jesus Christ overcame sin and death the eternal marriage of Adam and Eve would be restored. If their marriage was not restored, as it was before the fall, Jesus’ victory over sin and death was less than complete.
 
mtolympus said:
Thanks Stephen, I really don’t care how you answer. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion. I am only trying to show what I believe is biblical evidence for eternal marriage.
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But is your conclusion rational.
mtolympus said:
1- Were Adam and Eve married by God?

Genesis 1:28, Genesis 2:24-25, “What therefore God hath joined together” See Matthew 19:4-6.
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Yes, in Matthew 19:5, it is man that is doing marriage. “He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife , and the two shall become one flesh’?”
mtolympus said:
2- How long would Adam and Eve be married if Adam had not transgressed and there was no fall?

When Adam fell, sin entered the world and because of sin death also. Romans 5:12. Without the fall of Adam there world be no sin and no death and Adam and Eve would have remained married for eternity .
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They would not have remained married if only Eve had sinned, and Adam remained obedient.
mtolympus said:
3- Did the sacrifice of Jesus Christ completely pay for the sins of Adam?

If the atonement of Jesus Christ overcame sin and death the eternal marriage of Adam and Eve would be restored. If their marriage was not restored, as it was before the fall, Jesus’ victory over sin and death was less than complete.
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Can your wife live a life of total debauchery and still go to heaven? It seems your answer would be yes, because Christ removed all sin from the world.

Is there a biblical reference to the restoration of the marriage of Adam and Eve?
 
RebeccaJ said:
Our heavenly kingdom is a better place than the garden.
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This is so true.

Marriage is work. Being pregnant is work.

God wants us to finally find rest in heaven from our earthly cares and struggles. The Mormon heaven doesn’t benefit women at all.

They are committed to an eternal life of marriage and pregnancy or for the unmarried, a life of servitude.
 
SunshineGrandma said:
They are committed to an eternal life of marriage and pregnancy or for the unmarried, a life of servitude.
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I’d rather work with the angels as a servant than be in celestial marriage as the fourth wife in a polygamous marriage.

Polygamy may be banned for Mormons here on earth but the same cannot be said for heaven.
 
mtolympus said:
2- How long would Adam and Eve be married if Adam had not transgressed and there was no fall?
When Adam fell, sin entered the world and because of sin death also. Romans 5:12. Without the fall of Adam there world be no sin and no death and Adam and Eve would have remained married for eternity .

3- Did the sacrifice of Jesus Christ completely pay for the sins of Adam?
If the atonement of Jesus Christ overcame sin and death the eternal marriage of Adam and Eve would be restored. If their marriage was not restored, as it was before the fall, Jesus’ victory over sin and death was less than complete.
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God does not deal in “what ifs”, He deals in truth only. The truth is Adam & Eve did go against God’s command. How they were married has nothing to do with it. It happened and can’t be undone so there is no point in speculating “what ifs”.

I think you need to re-read Romans 5 again, this time reading the whole chapter. It certainly does not say what you claim it does. It also in no way supports your claim of proving eternal marriage.
 
Stephen168 said:
s there a biblical reference to the restoration of the marriage of Adam and Eve?
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How does the marriage of Adam and Eve resemble the LDS temple wedding with Masonic rituals?

There is a major leap here between Adam and Eve and LDS eternal marriage that I’m not following.
 
Stephen168 said:
But is your conclusion rational.
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Yes
Stephen168 said:
Yes, in Matthew 19:5, it is man that is doing marriage. “He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife , and the two shall become one flesh’?”
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A man must leave his parents and “be joined to his wife”. Nevertheless “God has joined them together”. And because God has joined them together “no human being must separate”.
Stephen168 said:
They would not have remained married if only Eve had sinned, and Adam remained obedient
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That is true. Adam would have remained alone forever.
Stephen168 said:
Can your wife live a life of total debauchery and still go to heaven? It seems your answer would be yes, because Christ removed all sin from the world.
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Yes, not only my wife but me also, through the atonement of Christ, if we repent and reconcile ourselves to the will of God.
Stephen168 said:
Is there a biblical reference to the restoration of the marriage of Adam and Eve?
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No, if everything were in the bible there would be no need for the restoration of the gospel.
 
Horton said:
God does not deal in “what ifs”, He deals in truth only. The truth is Adam & Eve did go against God’s command. How they were married has nothing to do with it. It happened and can’t be undone so there is no point in speculating “what ifs”.

I think you need to re-read Romans 5 again, this time reading the whole chapter. It certainly does not say what you claim it does. It also in no way supports your claim of proving eternal marriage.
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The scriptures do deal in “what ifs”. Paul tells us the truth about “what if” Christ were not resurrected:

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all. (1 Corr. 15:17-19)

But Christ was resurrected:

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being. For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life. (1 Cor. 15:20-22)

Romans 5 tells us Christ overcame sin and death.
 
Not the same thing, not even close. At this point I doubt you would be able to understand the differences between the concepts given your training in LDS methods of making scripture fit theories.
 
mtolympus said:
No, if everything were in the bible there would be no need for the restoration of the gospel.
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There is/was no need for the restoration of the Bible. That’s working backwards, however the story of salvation moves forward.

Has anyone other than Joseph Smith ever made this claim? I’m not sure about Christian Scientists etc.
 
Horton said:
Not the same thing, not even close. At this point I doubt you would be able to understand the differences between the concepts given your training in LDS methods of making scripture fit theories.
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I take full responsibility for my deficiencies in this regard. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gives no such training.
 
SunshineGrandma said:
Has anyone other than Joseph Smith ever made this claim? I’m not sure about Christian Scientists etc.
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I don’t believe there are any other than Joseph Smith to claim a restoration based entirely on revelation from God.

By the way, I like your name “Sunshine Grandma”. It is a very happy name.
 
SunshineGrandma said:
Why did Jesus die for our sins if marriage in an LDS temple is what gets us into heaven?
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Why did Jesus die for our sins if baptism in the trinitarian formula gets us into Heaven?
SunshineGrandma said:
What is the LDS obsession with eternal marriage AND pregnancy?
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What is the Biblical obsession with Eternal Marriage and pregnancy?

1 Cor 11:11 Woman is not independent of man or man of woman in the Lord.

Mark 10:9 Therefore what God has joined together, no human being must separate.

Psalms 127 3, 5 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward… Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them

1 Tim 2:15 Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

1 Peter 3:7 Ye husbands, likewise dwelling with them according to knowledge, giving honour to the female as to the weaker vessel, and as to the co-heirs of the grace of life: that your prayers be not hindered.
 
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