Elohim and the Saints

[dejj]

Are the Saints gods? His name Elohim is plural although He’s One (when He does a singular verb, e.g., love). In Psalm 82, He is judging the gods. While this could mean ‘child of God’ (John 1:12), does it also mean the Saints?

My church of origin was Fundamentalism, then, I was Episcopalian, and I’ve just left to join a congregation of the Roman Catholic Church. So I wonder what Marian devotion is all about. I wonder if God–or the apostles bearing the Catholic Church?–calls them ‘saints’ just so we won’t worship ‘gods’ and be liable for idolatry. Thoughts?

 

[Inquiry]

No the saints are not gods. This isn’t a technicality; the saints are never worshiped. We pray to them for intercession, and we aspire to be like them. We certainly respect them, much like we’d respect a really good person (exactly like we’d respect a really good person, actually).

Note, the saints do not have power of their own. They are the vehicles for God’s miracles, but the power is His.

 

[LovelyLadybug]

The saints are not gods. They are people like you and me who were very holy. We pray to the and ask for their intercession because they are good role models for Christians.

 

[po18guy]

Yet, understood correctly, God became man in Christ Jesus so that we could become like God. Not God, but share in His attributes: perfection and eternal existence. Saint Peter writes that we have partaken of the Divine Nature.

Through the Sacraments, we may obtain that grace - communing with the Lord, eating His Body and drinking His Blood. Since his human and divine natures cannot be separated, we also partake of a portion of that divinity.

Always and everywhere, we remain His children and He remains our Father.

 

[BartholomewB]

In Psalm 82, He is judging the gods. While this could mean ‘child of God’ (John 1:12), does it also mean the Saints?

The Catholic view is that Psalm 82:1 refers to the pagan gods. See the footnotes here:

Psalms, PSALM 82 | USCCB

 

[dejj]

I worry that we are not supposed to “become like God,” because Satan wanted to be God, so we would only be Satan. I think we can only become like Jesus. But once I read somewhere that everyone who goes to Heaven is a saint. So, if saints are in Heaven, and some of them are venerated, I mean, why is it that we pray to them? Then, are they the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is a Person?

 

[Fauken]

I worry that we are not supposed to “become like God,” because Satan wanted to be God, so we would only be Satan. I think we can only become like Jesus .

Jesus is God. And being like someone is not the same as being them. When we say we want to be like God, we want to be loving and good like God, but not become God Himself.

So, if saints are in Heaven, and some of them are venerated, I mean, why is it that we pray to them?

We ask them to pray to God on our behalf. They are closer to God than us and can offer prayers to Him unceasingly and with our best intentions in mind.

Then, are they the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is a Person?

No. The Holy Spirit is God. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two persons of one God. Persons refer to their identities, not like an individual, as God is one.

 

[Inquiry]

Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Three persons, one God. Jesus is one of the three.

We pray to God because He is God. We pray to the saints so that they may pray to God on our behalf. Those are very different relationships.

Yes, everyone who is in Heaven is a saint and everyone who is in purgatory will be a saint.

 

[dejj]

Jesus is God. And being like someone is not the same as being them. When we say we want to be like God, we want to be loving and good like God, but not become God Himself.

Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man. God is just God. We need to say what we mean. People have seen Jesus of Nazareth. No one has ever seen God except Jesus (Isaiah 64:4, John 1:18, John 6:46, 1 John 4:12).

We ask them to pray to God on our behalf. They are closer to God than us and can offer prayers to Him unceasingly and with our best intentions in mind.

But doesn’t the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit know all that we need before we even ask Him?

No. The Holy Spirit is God. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two persons of one God. Persons refer to their identities, not like an individual, as God is one.

Okay, got it. This makes perfect sense. I don’t know why I’d ask my question again using different wording!

 

[dejj]

We pray to God because He is God. We pray to the saints so that they may pray to God on our behalf. Those are very different relationships.

Thanks for your explanation. I guess God is just too holy? But the saints sinned too. I guess I’m just not satisfied with that.

 

[Fauken]

Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man. God is just God. We need to say what we mean. People have seen Jesus of Nazareth. No one has ever seen God except Jesus (Isaiah 64:4, John 1:18, John 6:46, 1 John 4:12).

Jesus is the great I AM (John 8:58). The Son of God is one person of God, who is one God of undivided substance in three persons.

But doesn’t the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit know all that we need before we even ask Him?

Yes, but that doesn’t mean we don’t pray to God anyway or that we’re on our own. We are part of the Body of Christ, we are not alone. If you were in Heaven, you’d want everyone to be there with you too. How could you not beg God on behalf of those on earth after experiencing the Beatific Vision?

Okay, got it. This makes perfect sense. I don’t know why I’d ask my question again using different wording!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Are the Saints gods?

No.

We believe in One God.

The word “Saint”, when used to mean an official saint of the Catholic Church (one who is in the Roman Martyrology and/or has been canonized), means a person of extraordinary holiness who lived on earth, died and whom the Church has declared is in Heaven; in some cases it is also used for certain Archangels (such as St. Michael, St. Gabriel) who are also in Heaven.

The word “Saint” used more generically refers to all humans who are currently in Heaven.

None of these humans or angels are God.

 

[dejj]

We believe in One God.

If Elohim is plural and includes gods that were pagan as BartholomewB pointed out, then, how do we know that we don’t worship them too? Is Elohim always doing something so that He is One? What about when He takes Sabbath? Does He still take Sabbath?

Are these pagan gods the Holy Spirit that is a Person? Who is the Person? Or, the Holy Spirit came from Jesus who is a Person (Acts 1:8)?

 

[Inquiry]

Yes, every one of them except Mary sinned. And all of them were forgiven and made holy by God.

 

[dejj]

And all of them were forgiven and made holy by God.

Oh, good point. I didn’t think of that. Still thinking of worldly things, I guess.

 

[twf]

Scripture tells us that those who believe are given “power to become the sons of God” (John 1:12). We are told that the baptized “put on Christ” (Gal 3:27). St Peter says that we have become “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4). St John says that those in heaven, who behold God, become like God see 1 John 3:2).
So yes, the saints are truly like Christ. They share in His divine nature. The Catechism tells us that God became man so that man might become God (see CCC 460). So in a sense the saints are gods with a small g in that they are god-like… BUT they are not and will never be God. They share in God’s divine nature, while remaining human. I think of it as a human being putting on a divine cloak. You remain a human, but you are surrounded by and empowered by the divine nature. All that the saints have, all that we honour in them, was given to them by grace. Christ is divine by nature. Mary and the saints share in divinity by grace. That is a key difference. By taking on our human nature, Christ has raised it to participate in divinity, but it remains human nature.

 

[dejj]

one God of undivided substance in three persons.

He has a lot of names, though, such as El Shaddai (the God of Abraham)…and I read somewhere, I think it was Keith Ward (but don’t quote me on it), that this was a god, not God, unless the author made a human error. Abraham couldn’t have had a false god.

Jesus is the True Son of God.

Yes, but that doesn’t mean we don’t pray to God anyway or that we’re on our own. We are part of the Body of Christ, we are not alone.

I was just wondering, is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit too busy to hear our prayers if we need to pray to the saints for intercession. But it makes sense that God is too holy, and that we need to direct God prayers to God…and if we need to makes intercessions, then we go to the saints? So, if we use a prayer book (such as St. Joseph’s), or pray the Liturgy of the Hours, are we praying to God or Jesus or the saints? Or to pray to the saints, we need to direct prayer to them?

 

[Fauken]

He has a lot of names, though, such as El Shaddai (the God of Abraham)…and I read somewhere, I think it was Keith Ward (but don’t quote me on it), that this was a god, not God, unless the author made a human error. Abraham couldn’t have had a false god.

Jesus is the True Son of God.

He is begotten, however, not created, as He is God. His identity as the Son describes His relationship to the Father, but is not literal. He is the God of Abraham, as He and the Father are both persons of the same, one, and true God.

I was just wondering, is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit too busy to hear our prayers if we need to pray to the saints for intercession.

No, it’s not a matter of them being busy. It’s a matter of us helping each other towards our heavenly goal.

But it makes sense that God is too holy, and that we need to direct God prayers to God…and if we need to makes intercessions, then we go to the saints?

All prayers ultimately go towards God. Intercession simply means to act on someone’s behalf. And that might answer your next question:

, if we use a prayer book (such as St. Joseph’s), or pray the Liturgy of the Hours, are we praying to God or Jesus or the saints? Or to pray to the saints, we need to direct prayer to them?

 

[Vico]

I worry that we are not supposed to “become like God,” because Satan wanted to be God, so we would only be Satan. I think we can only become like Jesus. But once I read somewhere that everyone who goes to Heaven is a saint. So, if saints are in Heaven, and some of them are venerated, I mean, why is it that we pray to them? Then, are they the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is a Person?

• There is the Holy Trinity (on God in three persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit).
• There are the glorified angels (those that did not fall) and the demons (Satan and his angels) without bodies.
• There are humans with body and soul and those that have died awaiting resurrection with souls only.

Although the Son of God person was able to assume a human nature, neither angels nor humans can become a different nature than they were created. Humans are able to participate in the divine nature through grace.

Catechism

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor , the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

 

[po18guy]

The difference is between stealing it and recieving it from God. Between assuming that you are owed the honor, and humbly thanking God when He bestows the honor upon you.