Elohim and the Saints

[Dan_Defender]

Jesus himself uses the plural in John 10:34 ‘Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?’ Therefore of course it doesn’t mean that there are multiple gods.

 

[dejj]

Scripture tells us that those who believe are given “power to become the sons of God” (John 1:12). We are told that the baptized “put on Christ” (Gal 3:27). St Peter says that we have become “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4). St John says that those in heaven, who behold God, become like God see 1 John 3:2).

All you’re talking about here is divinity, and not humanity. Also, we must be careful: in being a child of God, we do not want to say that we become like God, only to become like Satan (or allow Satan or his devils access to us), since Satan wanted to be God. We should not say that we want to “become like God.” We can only become like Jesus, who was fully divine and fully human. I don’t think we can have any attributes of God’s that Jesus did not show us when He was on Earth. That is, can we know the mysteries, such as His Agony in the Garden (for true contrition) or His Resurrection (for the virtue of the faith)–according to the complete edition of the St. Joseph Sunday Missal? Everything that we need to know was said in the Bible, but perhaps the Holy Spirit can tell us things that are hidden, e.g., the secret meaning of God’s “law” of the numbers or time, such as 40 years, etc.; this, Jesus did not explicitly tell us, but all of the Bible is about Him. You said 1 John 3:2 says that we can “become like God,” but most Bibles are just not clear about who ‘him’ is. The NIV–which, yes, I know, is not authorized for use in worship by the Roman Catholic Church, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t study them in private—nevertheless says that ‘him’ in 1 John 3:2 refers to Jesus.

The Catechism tells us that God became man so that man might become God (see CCC 460).

CCC 460 just means that Jesus came to make men divine, so, again, we could be like Jesus, not His Father, God with a capital ‘G.’ So, you are correct in your explanation: “god” in the sense of divine humanity.

 

[dejj]

All prayers ultimately go towards God.

So, it sounds like there is a hierarchy. Then, what is the order of the hierarchy? What if I pray and my prayer goes to a pagan god? (But perhaps that would mean that I’m secular. Alas, the Church has veered toward secularism since 2006 or so, according to a story in the United States Catechism for Adults).

 

[Fauken]

So, it sounds like there is a hierarchy. Then, what is the order of the hierarchy?

I’m not sure what you mean by “hierarchy”. There’s no more a hierarchy in prayer than there is when water falls to the ground due to gravity: it may hit trees and roofs on the way there, but it will ultimately hit the ground one way or another.

What if I pray and my prayer goes to a pagan god?

I don’t know. I imagine God hears all prayers regardless, even if they’re directed towards demons or other deities that do not exist. You may not have directed that prayer to God, but it’s not like God is unaware of what just happened.

 

[dejj]

Jesus himself uses the plural in John 10:34 ‘Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods ?’ Therefore of course it doesn’t mean that there are multiple gods.

No, there are not multiple gods…but that’s because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One and Jesus is the True Son of God. Remember? God told the Israelites not to worship false gods or idols. Jews pray the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4–9, 11:13–21; Numbers 15:37–41) every day in morning and evening prayer. Apparently, it means to judge oneself. I feel sorry for people who are ‘secular, but not religious.’ If they don’t make the Almighty God their God, then they make people their gods.

 

[dejj]

The difference is between stealing it and recieving it from God. Between assuming that you are owed the honor, and humbly thanking God when He bestows the honor upon you.

I was sitting in Church yesterday and it seemed that I received it from someone who spiritually murdered me.

 

[po18guy]

Have you spoken with Father about this feeling?

 

[dejj]

He said that my neighbor did it. Today, in Church, the priest said “Love Thy Enemy” because as Jesus said when He died on the Cross, “They do not understand what they do.”

I confess that I’m lacking in love. I had heaps of love, but I lost it using the wrong word (‘h-a-t-e,’ when I was in fact angry) to rant about how much I disliked my secular university.

 

[dejj]

His name Elohim is plural although He’s One (when He does a singular verb, e.g., love).

Oh, and I shouldn’t have misled everyone by listening to and obeying loud voices. I apologize. As it turns out, ‘love’ can be a singular and a plural, and can be a noun or a verb. Rather, ‘give’ (and I was studying the name Elohim around Thanksgiving, so the example I read about was fitting!) is definitely a singular verb. So, I guess ‘give’ is definitely doing something so that Elohim is One.

 

[dejj]

His name Elohim is plural although He’s One (when He does a singular verb, e.g., love).

Correction again: ‘love’ is singular or plural, not singular and plural, but it is a noun and a verb.

Don’t we hate being misled? I do.

Anyway, in trying to be like Jesus who is the Word, I need to be careful with the words I use too. God knows what I mean, but I wandered away from the faith…and all I learned was pretty much how to put something in writing so all can try to understand Him…

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

His name Elohim is plural although He’s One

Whether Elohim is used in a singular or plural context really depends on other words within the sentence.
Elohim can be translated as god, gods, God. Most Hebrew words have more then one translation, and the correct translation depends on the context.
For instance in Genesis, the very first verse in Chapter one, there is the word Elohim with its plural ending, but the word before it is a masculine singular word ‘create’
‘in the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth’
We know we can read this as God, not god or gods, because of the masculine singular word before it ‘create’

No the saints are not gods.
There is only one God.
We venerate the saints as people who were or became very holy through their lives and/or were martyred for their faith.
We only worship God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit-the Trinity

Welcome home to the Catholic Church

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Thanks for your explanation. I guess God is just too holy? But the saints sinned too. I guess I’m just not satisfied with that.

God is Being itself.
Everything in creation is a being, a being created by Being itself, God.
Bishop Barron of ‘Word on Fire’ youtubes has some really good youtubes on this topic and how God is Being itself.

 

[Inquiry]

Question. I read your profile. Are you motivated by the desire to make the jump to Catholicism correctly or by the worry that you are getting it wrong? The former is a good motivation, but be careful with the latter. If you struggle with anxiety over this be sure to let your priest know.

 

[dejj]

Whether Elohim is used in a singular or plural context really depends on other words within the sentence.
Elohim can be translated as god, gods, God. Most Hebrew words have more then one translation, and the correct translation depends on the context.
For instance in Genesis, the very first verse in Chapter one, there is the word Elohim with its plural ending, but the word before it is a masculine singular word ‘create’
‘in the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth’
We know we can read this as God, not god or gods, because of the masculine singular word before it ‘create’

Thanks for this, and I don’t want to sound like I’m trying to argue, but I was concerned with what the name ‘Elohim’ means and how it is One. As you know, each of His names have a different meaning. (See, for example, The Names of God Bible by Ann Spangler…but it might not be a Roman Catholic thing to study His names.)

No the saints are not gods.

To this, I might ask the question, “what is a god?” Thoughts?

Is it an idol, a false god, or like Psalm 82 as cited above in this post, a pagan god? Then, no, that wouldn’t be a saint, but what if “god” includes “child of God” as the divine human? Obviously, we wouldn’t call a ‘saint’ a ‘god,’ but then…

Actually, I think a “god” is a risky place to be in. It’s like, it could go to either Lucifer, who wanted to be God, and became Satan (Isaiah 14:12-17), or it could go to…uh, I think, Elohim??

 

[dejj]

Question. I read your profile. Are you motivated by the desire to make the jump to Catholicism correctly or by the worry that you are getting it wrong? The former is a good motivation, but be careful with the latter. If you struggle with anxiety over this be sure to let your priest know.

What do you mean by ‘getting it wrong?’ I don’t think there’s any side to take between so-called liberalism and Fundamentalism (by which I mean, the Bible). There’s the history of Tradition, and more importantly, the Bible itself is a book of history, too, although it’s not always clear to me how these two interact since my Reason fell. We are always just doing history again and again, and the different perspectives show that there are changes that take place through time. Or is this not what you asked?

I wanted to join the Roman Catholic Church because I thought I was damned. I squashed, or rather, crucified Jesus with me, by my unrepentant sin and public rebellion to the question of whether I am Christian. My bedroom reeked of something that burned when I woke many mornings. I thought what burned was, somehow, me…

It hasn’t helped me that many churches have veered toward so-called “Christian secularism” since 2006, and I had difficulty believing preaching by the former Dean who is a hypocritical Anglican priest. I stayed for a few more years with The Episcopal Church, but due to trauma with a professor leading to social anxiety, also, I could not fellowship with the congregation. I just felt like I wasn’t making a lot of progress in my faith, and ultimately, that’s what matters, not the joining of “an elite social club” even if it’s who I am.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

To this, I might ask the question, “what is a god?” Thoughts?

There is only 1 God, The Bible teaches us that the gods of the pagans are demons and lifeless statues.

to…uh, I think, Elohim??

Dont get stuck on the word without the context.
an elohim could be a god .
Context is everything.

 

[dejj]

There is only 1 God, The Bible teaches us that the gods of the pagans are demons and lifeless statues.

I wasn’t arguing that there is more than one god. I asked, what is a “god?” To the thing about pagans, yes, they are evil in mythology, but what about folklore? The pagans were so-called “gods” such as those whom the constellations are named after.

Dont get stuck on the word without the context.
an elohim could be a god .
Context is everything.

I wasn’t reading a verse, except Psalm 82, and even then, all I read is “Elohim judges Elohim.” I was looking at His name ‘Elohim’ and why I might believe that there are “many gods,” rather than One, but this was a sin. Or…what is He when Elohim is on Sabbath…which I think is not when He’s doing a singular verb (just like when the Jews rest, they can’t even flip on a light switch or turn on the stove)…but who knows but Jesus? So, are all of the voices in our head God? But they sound different! Of course, some could be the devil, but when we were young and before we sinned much??

Perhaps my question is upsetting because it could lead to dangerous thoughts unless one’s thinking is very rigid?

 

[dejj]

I wasn’t arguing that there is more than one god.

Oops, that is capitalized: God. I’m sitting in the bathroom typing on my phone and not being careful enough. Given what we are talking about, the mistake is horrifying.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

wasn’t arguing that there is more than one god. I asked, what is a “god?” To the thing about pagans, yes, they are evil in mythology, but what about folklore? The pagans were so-called “gods” such as those whom the constellations are named after.

The pagans were not gods, but their emperors etc could be declared gods, this still happens today in some countries. What is a god, the answer in Sacred Scripture is that any declared god besides the one God, I AM, the Trinity, is a demon masquerading as a god.

Perhaps my question is upsetting because it could lead to dangerous thoughts unless one’s thinking is very rigid?

You have a few questions there.
Here is Psalm 82
A Psalm of Asaph.

1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”a

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!

This is a Psalm of judgement and written in a time where there were many many gods worshipped. This Psalm talks of the wicked and the good, the needy and their rescue. It talks of how God will judge all these and also those who claim they are gods too.
The word Elohim is used the context of its translation gods.
It is being used in this Psalm to declare that God is sitting amongst the false gods, and has the power and the ability to judge them and humankind.

It is basically saying to a Jewish person of the time that God is the power and might and is the one who will judge the false gods as they have no power.
It is saying to the Jews, you have one God and one God only, reject all those pagan gods as they are nothing.
This is a good commentary on each verse
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/82-1.htm

 

[dejj]

Question. I read your profile. Are you motivated by the desire to make the jump to Catholicism correctly or by the worry that you are getting it wrong? The former is a good motivation, but be careful with the latter. If you struggle with anxiety over this be sure to let your priest know.

Question to you: why is your username ‘inquiry’ and if you are an inquirer as you suggest, why is it that you would say what you said to me?