You miss the point. I’m not talking about some caricature of Santa. I’m talking about that universal abiding spirit of goodness that dwells in all children, obviously enabled by an exterior force. Only when the child stops believing, stops letting Santa into their hearts does Santa abandon them.
[/QUOTE]Interesting. I’ve thought about the idea of pre-disposition to receive a certain forumulation of doctrine, etc… You could say that every culture is predisposed to receive a certain doctrinal formation by the very fact that it is the dominant religion in that country. For example, Chinese people would be more likely to embrase Budhism, or Maoism, than say Christianity. This talk of predisposition can go on and on. The cultural climate of our society predisposes us to many many things. That it predisposes us to something does not necessarily make it true or false. It simply means we have a predisposition that leads us in a certain direction.
There is no doubt that some people do embrace, not only a type of spirituality - but sometimes other aspects of a culture foreign to them. I have Buddhist friends, for example, that are of white Anglo Saxon ancestry. But they never felt “at home” with the faith of their culture and they kept looking. This does happen - sometimes it is a result of evangelization, sometimes a person, like my Buddhist friends, just don’t accept what they’ve been taught becuase it isn’t real to them, sometimes people feel alientated by various aspects of their own culture, etc… - it does happen and the reasons vary. But it isn’t the norm.
As for myself, I have to admit that I’m a born questioner (my poor mom!). I read, I seek, I ask a lot of questions that have no good answers (at least to me). I’m also bipolar - which plays a part in who I am. My experiences with suicidal depression have forced my hand in a lot of ways. I am very pragmatic. I have to be to survive. Hypo-mania is another issue altogether.
But I know alot of intelligent, honest people who are not believers - and who do not have a mental illness. They just simply can’t ignore their doubts - most of which are based on reason, personal experience and observatation - things that for us just don’t stand up to the claims made by Christianity - or any other of the revealed religions. I also have known many people who simply went through their lives going through the motions - afraid to even consider their own thoughts and doubts. And I know many who truly believe. And if it works for you, I happy for you.
It’s difficult to articulate some of these issue - they are very personal after all - to strangers on a forum, so forgive me if I’m not doing a very good job. This is a hard time of year for me. Next week is the anniversary of my dad’s suicide and I always miss my grandparents and other deceased loved ones more this time of year.
You and Carl Sagan.
You haven’t watched season 8!!! What about the ascended!!!
In my personal opinion it is healthy to say “I could be wrong”. It keeps us sane. A hard athiest does not say “I could be wrong” about God. He is just as fanatical.
You just did it for me.
Let me try to explain why I’ve used Santa - it is not an attempt to be rude or disrespectful and I think I mentioned that. The Santa analogy is being used because we all know the Santa story and we all know it isn’t true (in a literal sense) - yet most of us believed it at one time. For people who don’t believe it is a good comparison. It doesn’t mean that we think people who believe are childish - it isn’t mean personally at all. What I (and I’m sure others here) was hoping you could do was try to imagine what it is like for someone who sees no difference between the two - or who find neither one more real or plausbile that the other so that you could get a better idea of our mindset. That’s all. It was not meant to be a personal insult, just a tool for understanding. Sorry you took it otherwise. If you can think of a better analogy, please feel free to suggest it.Hi Swan (I assume that it is your post quoted above),
Several posters wonder why discussion gets heated and people get personal or angry.
I thought that I would make an observation of my own regarding an aside in your post.
Saying “I can’t talk myself into believing in Santa either” can be regarded as an offensive statement to many Christians. Drawing an analogy between God and an ‘obviously’ fictional character who we all know does not exist, and in addition, using a figure from childhood can be seen as provocative in the sense of trying to offend and draw a response. It suggests that belief in God is clearly and obviously absurd and childish.
It is a tactic that I have observed in many who wish to question the faith of others and it is one that draws high levels of emotion. (Along with being called stupid and superstitious of course!)
Syncretism be praised.You haven’t watched season 8!!! What about the ascended!!!
Do you believe in AntiGod? I don’t mean the theological antichrist, I mean AntiGod. Do you believe?
So can I think of you as a fanatical hard theist that won’t even entertain the possibility of AntiGod?No.
Aha!! You got me!!!So can I think of you as a fanatical hard theist that won’t even entertain the possibility of AntiGod?
Let me add the natural conclusion to my thought. “I could be wrong.” Do you believe in “Anti-Zero”?
I think you beg the question there. Hundreds of millions believe in Santa?? If so, hundreds of billions believe in Jesus Christ. If wild exaggeration is going to be the standard here, let’s all do it.
Yes, this is the ‘you’re too stupid to see the truth I know is obvious’ argument. Most athiests come to that argument eventually: “Christians are too simple-minded and just too ignorant to examine critically the claims of their religion and if they ever did they’d come to the same conclusion I do.”
That’s a good exmple. “Absurdity in religious stories” and Christian paint" do nothing for your argument and say nothing about the substance of the issue. Athiests never discuss the substance. Your entire argument is disbelief and ridicule delivered with insufferable arrogance, which shows up in just about every message you post. Which you deny even as you demonstrate it
And I’m sincerely not trying to insult, merely demonstrating how silly this all appears.
As you have done.
Most atheists don’t believe in moral absolutes, but many do, however, believe in morality, especially as it related to the betterment of mankind.
I think I agree there.
No. They believe the emotions are real but for a false reason.
No, you can’t use emotions to prove the existence of God any more than you could prove that your best friend is dead because you’re sad that they are dead. (As in the example above, you could still be wrong about your friend being dead.)
There are several things wrong with this.
No. That’s just subjective talk by priests. Even if this particular subjective talking is correct, it doesn’t prove or disprove God’s existence, and is not a successful apologetic tool.
The truth is out there…
Thanks for addressing my OP. There are so few of you.
There are some atheists, even on this thread, who claim that religious people believe in God because of the promise of eternal life. Thus they attribute belief in God to an emotional state. Would you not say that an affective way of dealing with these objections is to detail the experiences of mystics, from a philosophical and psychological perspective?
It is deeply involved with our search for truth. Proverbs is litterally packed with references to the pure of heart, those with a good heart who search after truth and those with perverse hearts. It also says in other places, only God can judge the intentions of the heart. Scripture places the heart as the deepest part of the person, where descisions are made for truth, for goodness, or for evil.
Again, I am not trying to provide the existence of God using the arguments from emotions. But as I’ve said, the focus of the Gospels, and of many other passages in scripture describe the heart as the seat of the person. God promises to give us a new heart in Jeremiah to replace our hearts of stone. Is there no difference between the hearts of believers and of atheists?
Maybe there isn’t any difference.All of these are good points.
Again, this is not the use I want to make of this thread. I think I’d like to focus on qualititative difference between the saints of Catholicism, with specific focus on the mystics, and atheists in general…if that is even a workable goal.
No , human reasoning is a valuable tool in and of itself.