"Employment Non-Discrimination Act" (ENDA) Has Passed the House!

[neat62]

You have been personally attacking me from the start. As you told me, ‘cry me a river’. You have asked me serious questions, and you called me a liar at every turn. Why should I bother?

How do I prove it? My birth certificate says male, my social security information says male, my driver’s license says male. I also have to carry a note from my psychotherapist on me at all times.

I’m pretty sure at least some of this is public information, particularly my driver’s license.

I haven’t once “attacked” you…I have asked you questions…remember, you’re the one who came here revealing your story.

Social security information does not indicate gender…not on a SS card. And if you now “act” as a female and want to be known as a female, why haven’t you applied for a new drivers license?

 

[pathia]

I haven’t once “attacked” you…I have asked you questions…remember, you’re the one who came here revealing your story.

Social security information does not indicate gender…not on a SS card. And if you now “act” as a female and want to be known as a female, why haven’t you applied for a new drivers license?

You cannot alter the sex of your birth certificate where I was born. Where I live, the driver’s license sex is tied to your birth certificate. Ergo, I cannot alter it.

 

[neat62]

You cannot alter the sex of your birth certificate where I was born. Where I live, the driver’s license sex is tied to your birth certificate. Ergo, I cannot alter it.

Well you must live in Canada then…cause in just about every state in the Union allows for one to change gender on their Drivers license…usually all that is required is either the filling out of a “variance” form…or a verification letter from your doctor.

Maybe you should look into it again.

 

[pathia]

Well you must live in Canada then…cause in just about every state in the Union allows for one to change gender on their Drivers license…usually all that is required is either the filling out of a “variance” form…or a verification letter from your doctor.

Maybe you should look into it again.

I don’t have a verification letter from my doctor. As far as the law is concerned in my state I am legally male because what I have between my legs is more masculine than feminine (I am intersexed, so it is of confusing arrangement that is neither here nor there of this thread). I cannot legally change it to female, it is not allowed. I have petitioned the court here multiple times, they will not make an exception. They require surgical proof, but I cannot have surgery because I have already been butched several times in my youth by doctors.

 

[neat62]

I don’t have a verification letter from my doctor. As far as the law is concerned in my state I am legally male because what I have between my legs is more masculine than feminine (I am intersexed, so it is of confusing arrangement that is neither here nor there of this thread). I cannot legally change it to female, it is not allowed. I have petitioned the court here multiple times, they will not make an exception. They require surgical proof, but I cannot have surgery because I have already been butched several times in my youth by doctors.

And have you mentioned this to your therapist…because I believe he can provide the verification letter you need. As far as I know, no state requires a physical examine…just a doctor’s note to verify…in fact, I know someone that simply took hormones to become male and they were able to get a letter from their doc that was accepted by the courts and the DMV.

 

[pathia]

And have you mentioned this to your therapist…because I believe he can provide the verification letter you need. As far as I know, no state requires a physical examine…just a doctor’s note to verify…in fact, I know someone that simply took hormones to become male and they were able to get a letter from their doc that was accepted by the courts and the DMV.

My state (Virginia) requires a letter from a surgeon outlining the surgical procedures he or she used to alter the sex from one to another.

It cannot be a therapist’s letter.

You keep forgetting you live in CA. Things are utterly and completely different on the other coast.

 

[neat62]

I don’t have a verification letter from my doctor. As far as the law is concerned in my state I am legally male because what I have between my legs is more masculine than feminine (I am intersexed, so it is of confusing arrangement that is neither here nor there of this thread). I cannot legally change it to female, it is not allowed. I have petitioned the court here multiple times, they will not make an exception. They require surgical proof, but I cannot have surgery because I have already been butched several times in my youth by doctors.

Just curious now…do you consider yourself…to be male or female? Sorry if you were butchered, I seriously, don’t wish that on anyone for any reason.

But I am also wondering what “in your youth” means…cause I hope you didn’t make such a life decision at too young of an age to even fully comprehend the impact of what you were choosing.

 

[neat62]

My state (Virginia) requires a letter from a surgeon outlining the surgical procedures he or she used to alter the sex from one to another.

It cannot be a therapist’s letter.

You keep forgetting you live in CA. Things are utterly and completely different on the other coast.

Well…seems to me…moving may be in order!

If you can’t seem to find employment and can’t get a new drivers license, etc…why do you stay there? I know there are states in and around you that don’t require the same…heck, even W. VA doesn’t require what you are telling me.

Its $10 and a court order in W. VA

 

[pathia]

Just curious now…do you consider yourself…to be male or female? Sorry if you were butchered, I seriously, don’t wish that on anyone for any reason.

But I am also wondering what “in your youth” means…cause I hope you didn’t make such a life decision at too young of an age to even fully comprehend the impact of what you were choosing.

I consider myself female. My genetics are a mixture of XX, XY and XXY chromosomes, I cannot be classified male or female with them.

I ‘knew’ I was female as early as I can remember. I made the ‘switch’ when I entered college as soon as I as my own legal entity. My parents had forced me into therapy to cure me.

 

[pathia]

Well…seems to me…moving may be in order!

If you can’t seem to find employment and can’t get a new drivers license, etc…why do you stay there? I know there are states in and around you that don’t require the same…heck, even W. VA doesn’t require what you are telling me.

Its $10 and a court order in W. VA

My family is here, my mother died in February of ovarian cancer, I am picking up the pieces. I will eventually move, but there is much to be done, much amends to be made. I was disowned by my family, but mom and I grew close before she died and she started to get the rest of the family to finally accept me.

 

[Kaninchen]

I consider myself female. My genetics are a mixture of XX, XY and XXY chromosomes, I cannot be classified male or female with them.

I ‘knew’ I was female as early as I can remember. I made the ‘switch’ when I entered college as soon as I as my own legal entity. My parents had forced me into therapy to cure me.

Were you one of the intersex children ‘butchered’ as a baby?

 

[pathia]

Were you one of the intersex children ‘butchered’ as a baby?

I was indeed. My parents had the surgery performed mostly under guidance of our priests at the time, the doctors actually didn’t consider it necessary.

 

[Kaninchen]

I was indeed. My parents had the surgery performed mostly under guidance of our priests at the time, the doctors actually didn’t consider it necessary.

It was quite unspeakably awful the things that were done.

 

[neat62]

My family is here, my mother died in February of ovarian cancer, I am picking up the pieces. I will eventually move, but there is much to be done, much amends to be made. I was disowned by my family, but mom and I grew close before she died and she started to get the rest of the family to finally accept me.

Sorry to hear all of that.

Here’s a quick tip though…NY doesn’t require anything more than the following:

4214-LAM License Amendments Proof Of Sex Change In order to amend a driver license to reflect a sex change, a statement from the physician, psychologist or psychiatrist must accompany the request. The statement must be on their letterhead and must certify the one gender predominates over the other and the licensee in question is either a male or female. Staple the statement to the Application for Driver license, Form MV-44

 

[Dale_M]

Which part and why? And, which version of the bill are you referring to or both?

A fair question, and one I can only answer partially. I read the bill when it was being debated by the House last year. But it passed late last year, and I can’t find any recent news articles about it, so I am a bit confused. Is the bill going by a different name?

The AFA’s website doesn’t have any seem to have any recent articles regarding ENDA. Perhaps Surf(name removed by moderator)ure can tell us what is the bill number so we can look up its history, as well as its exact text.

 

[Dale_M]

Here’s a quick tip though…NY doesn’t require anything more than the following:

4214-LAM License Amendments Proof Of Sex Change In order to amend a driver license to reflect a sex change, a statement from the physician, psychologist or psychiatrist must accompany the request. The statement must be on their letterhead and must certify the one gender predominates over the other and the licensee in question is either a male or female. Staple the statement to the Application for Driver license, Form MV-44

It seems each state differs on the criteria for changing the sex marker on the drivers license. Ohio is another state which requires a doctor’s letter vouching that surgery was done.
ohio.edu/lgbt/resources/transnamechange.cfm

 

[Dale_M]

The US Supreme Court case:

Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins, 490 U.S. 228 (1989) (holds that harassment directed at a person because that person does not conform to traditional sex stereotypes is covered by Title VII)

The Price Waterhouse decision has been interpreted by lower courts in various ways regarding transsexuals and employment. I’m not versed on this subject, but here is a snippet from a law professor’s blog:

Lopez is suing under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which forbids discrimination on the basis of sex. The company points out that Title VII has been held by numerous courts not to forbid discrimination on the basis of gender identity (transsexuality), while Lopez points out that in recent years quite a few federal courts, most prominently the 6th Circuit, have used the reasoning of Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins (1989) and subsequent sexual stereotyping cases to construct a cause of action for transsexuals under Title VII

newyorklawschool.typepad.com/leonardlink/2008/04/is-anti-transge.html

 

[surfinpure]

cynic;3658737]

And who pays for the lawsuits when acompany is sued because someone decides to get cute, when they are gay and fired because of work related issues? Who pay’s for that?

A very good point. Indeed, I wonder if this isn’t getting very close to “hate crimes” legislation now. I recall a particular email sent out by Catholic Answers about severe and unjust punishment for perceived “hate crimes” (i.e. a pastor saying homosexuality is a sin, but that we should be sure to love the sinner) in Europe and Australia. Are we next? Are the thought police alive and well in America?

Let me state again for the record that I would have no problem employing a well-qualified and well-mannered gay person to work in a non-religious business. I would realize that many of my employees are likely living sinful lives sexually (that’s the norm these days), and as long as the private life stays private, for both groups, I don’t see why being gay ought to be an impediment to job performance.

What I am arguing against, however, is giving a gay person a special legal privilege to claim. Under the proposed legislation, if I fire John because John is lazy, and John happens to be gay, and John does not agree that he is lazy (few lazy folks do), John is perfectly likely to lawyer-up and file suit, claiming that he was really fired because he’s gay. He could then go on to describe, true or untrue, a “hostile work environment” where he felt “ostracized.” He could say other employees talked about him, or that they or I made him feel uncomfortable. And then guess what it boils down to? My word or his.

And if it goes before a judge who happens to think all Catholics are bigots, guess what? Lazy John now owns my business.

 

[pathia]

What I am arguing against, however, is giving a gay person a special legal privilege to claim. Under the proposed legislation, if I fire John because John is lazy, and John happens to be gay, and John does not agree that he is lazy (few lazy folks do), John is perfectly likely to lawyer-up and file suit, claiming that he was really fired because he’s gay. He could then go on to describe, true or untrue, a “hostile work environment” where he felt “ostracized.” He could say other employees talked about him, or that they or I made him feel uncomfortable. And then guess what it boils down to? My word or his.

And if it goes before a judge who happens to think all Catholics are bigots, guess what? Lazy John now owns my business.

It would have to go through the EEOC. They do not mess around, it’s fairly difficult to bring allegations of discrimination without eye witnesses and physical evidence, emails/voicemails etc with obvious discriminatory language inside of it. You are worrying too much. If this was the case, ever black, hispanic or asian person would be filing EEOC claims whenever they were laid off.

The process is long and grueling and not particularly entertaining. You’re saying this person who was gay and fired for being lazy is going to bother to stick it out for all of the paperwork and voodoo involved in an employment case, when they were fired for being lazy. Think about that a moment now.

Civil cases are another matter, but those can be filed regardless of law. You can sue in civil court for anything at all if you have the time and money to bother.

 

[surfinpure]

It would have to go through the EEOC. They do not mess around, it’s fairly difficult to bring allegations of discrimination without eye witnesses and physical evidence, emails/voicemails etc with obvious discriminatory language inside of it. You are worrying too much. If this was the case, ever black, hispanic or asian person would be filing EEOC claims whenever they were laid off.

The process is long and grueling and not particularly entertaining. You’re saying this person who was gay and fired for being lazy is going to bother to stick it out for all of the paperwork and voodoo involved in an employment case, when they were fired for being lazy. Think about that a moment now.

Civil cases are another matter, but those can be filed regardless of law. You can sue in civil court for anything at all if you have the time and money to bother.

I agree that the EEOC makes it no fun at all to try to prove wrongful termination. But it’s precisely the civil cases that worry me. Because of the force of “gay-rights” activism, I’m sure there are activist organizations with attorneys who would jump at the chance to stick it to a “homophobic” employer. We already have Quanell X here in Houston going after the DA and starting parades and riots every time an African American kid gets shot while burglarizing a home. We don’t need private employers living in fear of having to fire a gay person for legitimate reasons.