End of Altar Girls?

[dhgray]

Franciscum:

ALL the available altar serving positions should go to males for the purpose of fostering vocations.

AND I suppose all women should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen making your dinner?

I’m glad girls are allowed to be alter servers. It fosters a sense of service to the Church.

 

[Annunciata]

katherine2:

Please come to my parish. Please come to our Catholic Mothers Club. Please tell these ladies that the wonderful, beautiful young man we have as an altar server and who has a mental disability that would make him ineligable as a priestly candidate should step aside for a boy who might be considered or considering the priesthood…

Katherine2,.
This is very though provoking indeed…
Annunciata

 

[fix]

Girls are more likely to do service in the Church, that is a good reason to limit altar servers to boys. Not only is it away to foster vocations to the priesthood, but young boys are attracted to a “boys only” atmosphere. I posted an article about this just the other day.

It is not about limiting girls or inequality. I have asked many times who gave permission to start female altar servers? As far as I know it was an illicit use and was allowed by Rome at the discretion of the presiding priest. Rome did not start it, but they gave in and allowed it.

 

[fix]

katherine2:

Please come to my parish. Please come to our Catholic Mothers Club. Please tell these ladies that the wonderful, beautiful young man we have as an altar server and who has a mental disability that would make him ineligable as a priestly candidate should step aside for a boy who might be considered or considering the priesthood. I would encourage YOU to then step aside – and cover up that part of your body you need for the priesthood.

I must admit, the devil would tempt me to take amusement in this little interaction.

Please. You want to make the rule the exception and the exception the rule. No one advocates your line of reasoning and you know it. As a general principle altar servers can be a good way to foster vocations to the priesthood.

I can play your game too. Since the start of girl altar boys we have a vocations crisis, so it would be reasonable to assume the influx of female servers has caused fewer vocations. Seem reasonable?

 

[katherine2]

fix:

Girls are more likely to do service in the Church, that is a good reason to limit altar servers to boys.

So you have a tribe of altar servers who are less enthusiastic about it? It seems to me mixing those more enthusiastic about it with those who are less will bring up the bottom.

Not only is it away to foster vocations to the priesthood, but young boys are attracted to a “boys only” atmosphere. I posted an article about this just the other day…

I don’t notice any single sex CCD classes, even in the ultraconservative parishes.

I don’t think the church needs to be in the business of accomodating boys who don’t like girls. That’s what the Church Organists Guild is for.

 

[fix]

katherine2:

So you have a tribe of altar servers who are less enthusiastic about it? It seems to me mixing those more enthusiastic about it with those who are less will bring up the bottom.

It has not happended thus far. The point is about fostering more vaocations. IMO, the female servers are no more devout than the male ones. So if both are equal, lets’ stick with the male only rule.

I don’t notice any single sex CCD classes, even in the ultraconservative parishes.

Apples and oranges.

I don’t think the church needs to be in the business of accomodating boys who don’t like girls. That’s what the Church Organists Guild is for.

Boys and girls do not get along automatically or need to be placed together in every single circumstance at every single point in life. You know it and I know it.

 

[dhgray]

fix:

I can play your game too. Since the start of girl altar boys we have a vocations crisis, so it would be reasonable to assume the influx of female servers has caused fewer vocations. Seem reasonable?

I love games. Since the start of girl altar servers, we have had less new sexual abuse claims. Coincidence?

 

[katherine2]

fix:

It has not happended thus far. The point is about fostering more vaocations. IMO, the female servers are no more devout than the male ones. So if both are equal, lets’ stick with the male only rule.

We don’t have a male only rule to stick with. If all things are even, let’s stick with the status quo and pastoral discretion.

Apples and oranges.

tangerines and muskmelons.

Boys and girls do not get along automatically or need to be placed together in every single circumstance at every single point in life. You know it and I know it.

Christians are called to get along.

If theri was tension between two racial or ethnics groups at a parish, would you pick one to be altar servers or would you tell them to see the Christian dignity in each other? (Fix, don’t answer this; its a rhetorical question and I fear what your answer would be!).

 

[fix]

katherine2:

We don’t have a male only rule to stick with. If all things are even, let’s stick with the status quo and pastoral discretion.

Pastoral, a word used in code by many libs. The rule that was observed for years before the heterodox were in charge is the one I was referring to.

Christians are called to get along.

True, so unisex restrooms are a must? Are you claiming there is never a time when male and female can be separate without claiming antiChristian behavior?

If theri was tension between two racial or ethnics groups at a parish, would you pick one to be altar servers or would you tell them to see the Christian dignity in each other? (Fix, don’t answer this; its a rhetorical question and I fear what your answer would be!).

We are speaking of not fully matured boys and girls, not mature fully developed men and women. You know like the immaturity of the old rads still living in 1968 and waiting for a new pope to give them priestesses and contraception.

 

[katherine2]

fix:

Pastoral, a word used in code by many libs.

Or maybe that conservatives simply are not committed to pastroal action.

True, so unisex restrooms are a must?

I don’t agree with you that urinating and serving God at the altar are related activities.

We are speaking of not fully matured boys and girls, not mature fully developed men and women. .

So let’s encourage immaturity? And if they are so immature, why do we think this is the stage to push a vocation?

 

[fix]

dhgray:

I love games. Since the start of girl altar servers, we have had less new sexual abuse claims. Coincidence?

I do not know that all the homosexual abuse was done to altar boys. In fact, maybe most of the abuse was on non altar boys? Can you show us proof? I am not being sarcastic.

 

[lonnienord]

to the peson who said the best alter servers are girls. That is just another reason to go back to the all boy alter servers. Right now boys don’t do it cause they know they can’t do it as good as the girls.

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

 

[fix]

katherine2:

Or maybe that conservatives simply are not committed to pastroal action.

I guess that would depend on how one is defining pastoral action? If that means illicit practices or a loophole mentality in following directives from Rome, then yes some would be against such actions.

I don’t agree with you that urinating and serving God at the altar are related activities.

So you embrace “anti Christian” practices, like separating the sexes, for some things?

So let’s encourage immaturity? And if they are so immature, why do we think this is the stage to push a vocation?

Uhm, let’s let boys and girls develop normally and go through proper stages of maturing. All the while teaching the faith. Just because one is not fully mature does not mean they can’t have a calling to the priesthood.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I don’t think the church needs to be in the business of accomodating boys who don’t like girls. That’s what the Church Organists Guild is forI

I’m sure you thought the above was funny. I didn’t.

As a woman who has been a church organist for nearly 30 years, I found it extremely offensive to any church organist, male or female. :tsktsk:

You have some very good insights in some of your posts, and I’ve found that even when I disagree with you that you are at least well-informed from your perspective.

However, IMO your posts far too often suffer from the sort of “throw away” (appropriate term) remarks like the one I reference. I feel that by making statements like this you come across as condescending and dismissive.

It is so easy to go for cheap shots, cheap laughs, and other cheap dismissals that in effect dehumanize or delegitimatize the other person or his/ her point of view. But the easy way is seldom the best way. We are, after all, made in Christ’s image. I believe we should try to remember this more often.

In the peace of Christ.

 

[Catholic2003]

katherine2:

I don’t think the church needs to be in the business of accomodating boys who don’t like girls.

But where will the future misogynistic priests come from if we don’t coddle the misogynistic tendencies of young boys who refuse to serve alongside altar girls?

BTW, female altar servers were allowed by the 1983 Code of Canon Law (canon 230 §2), which came into force November 27, 1983.

 

[fix]

Catholic2003:

But where will the future misogynistic priests come from if we don’t coddle the misogynistic tendencies of young boys who refuse to serve alongside altar girls?

BTW, female altar servers were allowed by the 1983 Code of Canon Law (canon 230 §2), which came into force November 27, 1983.

So young boys are genetically misogynistic? Interesting opinions you hold.

When did female altar servers start and who gave them permission prior to the Vatican allowing them? Each priest still has the yes or no over use of female servers.

 

[fix]

ongregation for Divine Worship - Letter on Altar Servers July 27, 2001 In July 2001, the Holy See’s Congregation for Divine Worship issued a response to a bishop’s question (dubium) concerning the possible admission of girls and women as altar servers. The response, a further explanation of the Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conference, March 15, 1994, no. 2, that granted permission for bishops to admit female alter servers, made it clear that only a diocesan bishop may decide whether to permit female servers in his diocese; furthermore, that no priest is obliged to have female servers, even in dioceses where this is permitted. The letter stressed that no one has a “right” to serve at the altar, and also strongly reaffirmed that altar boys should be encouraged

 The Letter, signed by Cardinal Jorge A. Medina Estévez, prefect of the CDW, was published in the August/September issue of the official publication of the CDW, *Notitiae

…* In accord with the above cited instructions of the Holy See such an authorization may not, in any way, exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar, nor require that priests of the diocese would make use of female altar servers, since “it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar” (Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conference, March 15, 1994, no. 2). Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, not least of all due to the well known assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations (cf. ibid*.*),

** With respect to whether the practice of women serving at the altar would truly be of pastoral advantage in the local pastoral situation, it is perhaps helpful to recall that the non-ordained faithful do not have a right to service at the altar,** rather they are capable of being admitted to such service by the Sacred Pastors (cf. Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conferences, March 15, 1994, no. 4, cf. also can 228, §1, Interdicasterial Instruction Esslesiae de mysterio*, *August 15, 1997, no. 4, see *Notitiae *34 [1998] 9-42). Therefore, in the event that Your Excellency found it opportune to authorize service of women at the altar, it would remain important to explain clearly to the faithful the nature of this innovation, lest confusion might be introduced, thereby hampering the development of priestly vocations.

Having thus confirmed and further clarified the contents of its previous response to Your Excellency, this Dicastery wishes to assure you of its gratitude for the opportunity to elaborate further upon this question and that it considers this present letter to be normative.

With every good wish and kind regard, I am, Sincerely yours in   Christ, 

Jorge A. Card. Medina Estévez
Prefect      Mons. Mario Marini 
Under Secretary

 

[Catholic90]

fix:

Boys and girls do not get along automatically or need to be placed together in every single circumstance at every single point in life. You know it and I know it.

You sure don’t know MY boys!! All 3 of my BOYS have always had GIRLS among their best friends (started early, and is still true - oldest 13, youngest 9). When offered a group situation at school for projects, etc, all 3 will choose GIRLS to work with over BOYS. (Girls work harder, are more focused, are nicer, maybe??). Sure, they have guy friends, too, but none like their girl friends!

 

[fix]

Catholic90:

You sure don’t know MY boys!! All 3 of my BOYS have always had GIRLS among their best friends (started early, and is still true - oldest 13, youngest 9). When offered a group situation at school for projects, etc, all 3 will choose GIRLS to work with over BOYS. (Girls work harder, are more focused, are nicer, maybe??). Sure, they have guy friends, too, but none like their girl friends!

My experience with boys and girls is vastly different. Boys do tend to socialize with boys and girls with girls depending on the age and situation. Are there exceptions, sure. Is that the norm, no.

I am not sure of your point. Do you think that boys and girls must be socialized to be unisexed and interchangeable in every circumstance and at every age?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

katherine2:

I don’t think the church needs to be in the business of accomodating boys who don’t like girls. That’s what the Church Organists Guild is for.