End of Altar Girls?

[Franciscum]

Bobby Jim:

It would be enlightening to know:

1) Percentage of current priests who served as altar boys when younger, and

1. Percentage of altar boys who went on to become priests.

and whether those percentages have changed with time. Has anyone seen any reliable statistics on this?

My intuition is that, these days, more men are discerning their call to the priesthood a little later, often in their 20s or early 30s. These tend to be the young men who stay involved in church not only through their teenage years (when they may or may not have been altar servers), but also through college and young adulthood. So many kids who were very active in their parish when under the guidance of Mom & Dad go away to school, and drop out of sight. Others don’t - they stay active, and grow in their faith far beyond what they had. I think the experience of taking responsibility for ones’ own faith, upon being independent from Mom & Dad, has a much more profound influence on young men than what one did as a pre-teen.

These days kids are bombarded from the earliest age with the message that the only option for life is as part of a couple (not necessarily married, these days). The idea that someone could remain single and celibate is totally contrary to almost everything that kids hear. I’m guessing that subject doesn’t even come up so much when kids are being trained by Father to be altar boys. It often takes young men a few years beyond high school, beyond the years of intense pressure to conform, to realize that, for them, a lifetime of celibacy and material poverty is an option. Those, to me, seem like the bigger obstacles to young men these days than whether they had the opportunity to serve at Mass as youths, or whether the presence of girls made the whole thing seem icky and gross.

I asked this question to 22 current seminarians about 3 months ago at an informal dinner. All of the 22 had been servers, a few still in their early 20’s never stopped serving.

When we talk about older priests, I don’t think I have ever met one who did not serve…

 

[katolik]

katherine2:

Yeah, right.

The problem with you conservatives is that your are not conservative. You keep making up new understandings of the the liturgy.

Not too long ago, conservatives objected to the Dialogue Mass because the altar boy was representing the CONGREGATION.

what in the world are you talking about? The altar boy represents the congregation at the altar. D’uh

 

[fix]

Bobby Jim:

I’m guessing that subject doesn’t even come up so much when kids are being trained by Father to be altar boys.

That would be the fault of the priest.

 

[fix]

The tradition of altar boys comes from a time in the Church when there
were no seminaries. If a young man wanted to be a priest, he would be
like an apprentice to the pastor in his local parish. The pastor would
teach him how to administer the sacraments, and the young man would serve
him at the altar. When he was ready, the candidate for the priesthood
would be presented to the bishop for ordination. Then, when seminaries
were invented, and young men destined for the priesthood no longer
assisted the local parish priest in this way, their place was taken by men
or boys.

The tradition of having boys serve at the altar has continued since then
for hundreds of years. There was no official ministry given to altar
boys, nor is there today. The permission to allow girls to serve at the
altar is not, by anyone’s reckoning, a change in Church doctrine or in the
essential structure of the Church. (These can never change.) It is, as
the Vatican news reports point out, a matter of pastoral discipline. But
even so, the tradition of having boys serve at the altar was a good
tradition – to use the words of the Vatican Statement, “a ‘noble
tradition’ that has led to priestly vocations and must continue to be
supported.” It was good for the priests, and good for the boys.

How was this tradition good for the priests? To answer that, I must first
make a controversial statement, namely this: boys and girls are different.

ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/ALTBYHOM.TXT

 

[Franciscum]

It’s interesting to note the variation in parishes when it comes to altar servers.

Some people here mentioned their parishes have upwards of 120 altar boys. Sometimes up to 20 serve at a single Mass. Someone else mentioned Pages of the Altar and Knights of the Altar programs at their parishes. Absolutely wonderful how such parishes still make the commitment to sustain such activities. I’ll bet the espirit de corps is awesome amongst the boys/young men.

Concersely we see some people posting the same old excuses. They suggest there wouldn’t be enough servers if girls did not serve. (I know too many tiny parishes with plenty of altar boys to discount this one) or that girls do such a better job they have to be used (any well trained boys will match any well trained girl.)

In any event we see a two hugely different levels of support for altar boys. GUESS which parishes grow more vocations to the priesthood per capita?

 

[katherine2]

Franciscum:

Because serving at the altar fosters vocations to the priesthood and diaconate, all altar server positions should go to males who might just possibly have such a vocation.

And I take it you want disabled and handicapped boys excluded.

 

[katherine2]

Franciscum:

Concersely we see some people posting the same old excuses. They suggest there wouldn’t be enough servers if girls did not serve

Franciscum,

I’ve gone back and reviewed every single post. Not one said there would not be enoguh servers if girls did not serve.

May I offer you a suggestion? Stop being a liar.

 

[Franciscum]

katherine2:

Franciscum,

I’ve gone back and reviewed every single post. Not one said there would not be enoguh servers if girls did not serve.

May I offer you a suggestion? Stop being a liar.

It’s sad to see the effects of sexism/feminism/progressivism on someone like yourself. You’re now becoming emotionally crude because you cannot raise a convuncing argument against the premise I raised in posting #1. I won’t call you a “liar” as I’m sure emotions/secular conditioning are getting the best of you on this thread, but the following posting does suggest you are being inaccurate with your judgement of others:

jimmy:

Although that would be ideal, I do not think it is possible to both make it only available to boys and to make the age requirement seventh grade. There would be no where near enough altar servers.

I do agree that they should return it to being only boys. Like you said, it should foster an interest in the preisthood.

Yes, this had the added constraint of age, but rest assured those parishes that had 120 altar boys or Page/Knight of the Altar programs would have no problem is recruting and training more than anough altar boys. (I have to admit however the low number using this excuse. On a place like Beliefnet.com, this is by far the most common excuse offered.)

I think it bothers you a great deal to see some parishes still have such programs and levels of participation by boys. Look back on your posts. You have struggled to make your argument using the handicapped and everything else you can think of, all to no avail. You need to begin to realize that God and not sexism/feminism/progressivism are what’s important.

 

[Franciscum]

katherine2:

And I take it you want disabled and handicapped boys excluded.

Are you now suggesting that all “disabled and handicapped boys” are excluded from receiving vocations to the priesthood or permanent diaconate?

You keep struggling to make your point, and you keep failing to do so…

 

[MarkInOregon]

misericordie:

I AGREE!!! If only more priests would stop seeing so much TV, playing golf, etc and begin to STUDY “Redemptionis Sacramentum.”

I don’t understand because Redemptionis Sacramentum specifically provides for Girls to be alter servers. It also does not indicate that the primary purpose of alter servers is the fostering of vocations–but simply asks us to be mindful that many vocations in the past have come from alter servers. It also seems to indicate that it might be good for fathers to serve with sons.

The peace of Christ be with you.
Mark

 

[katherine2]

Re read jimmy’s post. His is not a posting that says we should have altar girls because there are too few boys. He says we should not put an age restriction on boys because of need and then goes to post that "I do agree that they should return it to being only boys. Like you said, it should foster an interest in the preisthood."

So I will stand by my previous post. Not a singler poster here has said there wouldn’t be enough servers if girls did not serve, contrary to your false claim.

 

[katherine2]

Franciscum:

Are you now suggesting that all “disabled and handicapped boys” are excluded from receiving vocations to the priesthood or permanent diaconate?

Not all. Those with certain disabilites are including one fine young man in my parish who, if we followed your posted claims, would have to be told he was no longer eligable to serve.

 

[MarkInOregon]

fix:

Girls are more likely to do service in the Church, that is a good reason to limit altar servers to boys. Not only is it away to foster vocations to the priesthood, but young boys are attracted to a “boys only” atmosphere. I posted an article about this just the other day.

It is not about limiting girls or inequality. I have asked many times who gave permission to start female altar servers? As far as I know it was an illicit use and was allowed by Rome at the discretion of the presiding priest. Rome did not start it, but they gave in and allowed it.

Rome does not “give in.” If Rome gave in as easily as you seem to imply–then the Churches teaching today would be quite different than it is. We would accept birth control, abortion in the case of rape or incest, we would have women priests, we’d probably be seriously considering gay marriage–but these will never happen in the Church–we’d still have earthen ware chalices. Rome does not just throw up its hands and give in. Rather they consider the issues seriously and make a pastoral decision–one they think is best for the Church.

The peace of Christ be with you.
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

fix:

Since the start of girl altar boys we have a vocations crisis, so it would be reasonable to assume the influx of female servers has caused fewer vocations. Seem reasonable?

Not really as what you state is not true. Vocations were down long before the use of female alter servers started–at least in this part of the country and contrary to what everyone seems to think–vocations today are trending back up–are they what we would like–no. Are you all out there praying for vocations–I hope so.

A more likely culpret for decreased vocations–was smaller families–so parents discourage their only son from becoming a preist (many priests I know came from large families), increased educational and career opportunites that started in the 50’s and a whole host of societal issues–such as ease of travel and tv which allowed for much greater exposure to other opportunities. It is far to easy and simplistic to blame female alter servers.

The peace of Christ be with you.
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

Church Militant:

The fact that the Holy See accents is enough…are you unwilling to be obedient to Rome? Even if it began in disobedience, the fact that Rome reconsidered (since this is NOT an issue of faith and morals!) and approved it is all that needs be said. I submit that there are far more important things to work on in Holy Mother Church than this pissant issue. We have altar girls at my parrish and they do just fine and all the older servers help the younger ones get it right. WHO CARES who came up with the idea. The fact is that it is not a position that means a girl wants to be a priest, but that she wants to serve Christ at that altar. I have no fear of the advent of priestesses because I trust Christ to keep His promise not to let the gates of hell prevail and I trust Him to guide the Holy Father.

THANK YOU MICHAEL!!!

 

[Franciscum]

kmktexas:

One thing is pretty clear. The Church is not encouraging Altar Girls, they are tolerating them.

From Redemtionis Sacramentum

Altar boys are laudable, associations should be formed for them (the boys) and greater pastoral care should be provided for them (the boys). Girls are also allowed. When you read this, it seems like the girls were put in as an afterthought. The discretion of the Bishop is important. There is at least one Bishop in the US who doesn’t allow girls. There are a lot of priests who only allow boys to serve at their Masses, as is there right. Part of the “established norms” has to be previous documents that say that girls should not be allowed if it keeps boys from serving. What is missing is some clarification as to how to determine if the boys are being kept from serving. If there are willing boys but no space because of the number of girls, then yes, they are being kept away. If they just don’t want to serve with girls, that’s more subjective.

Our parish encourages boys and Father personally invites (commands) ones he sees are attentive and reverent at Mass. Girls are allowed to sign up too (we do not have a limited number of spaces). It is usually the Mom who signs them up. Girls are not allowed to serve as the MC (head server).

I fully agree. Conscription is not always a bad thing…

My guess is that RS was the tool JPII used to begin turning the ship on the matter of female altar boys…

 

[philipmarus]

Did not a early draft of the Liturgical document discourage the use of Altar girls unless there was a “just pastoral reason” which was softened somewhat in the final version.

 

[Franciscum]

Church Militant:
The fact that the Holy See accents is enough…are you unwilling to be obedient to Rome? Even if it began in disobedience, the fact that Rome reconsidered (since this is NOT an issue of faith and morals!) and approved it is all that needs be said. I submit that there are far more important things to work on in Holy Mother Church than this pissant issue. We have altar girls at my parrish and they do just fine and all the older servers help the younger ones get it right. WHO CARES who came up with the idea. The fact is that it is not a position that means a girl wants to be a priest, but that she wants to serve Christ at that altar. I have no fear of the advent of priestesses because I trust Christ to keep His promise not to let the gates of hell prevail and I trust Him to guide the Holy Father.

Vocations to the priesthood or permanent diaconate are a “pissant issue”?

Who taught you that?

 

[Franciscum]

MarkInOregon:

Not really as what you state is not true. Vocations were down long before the use of female alter servers started–at least in this part of the country and contrary to what everyone seems to think–vocations today are trending back up–are they what we would like–no. Are you all out there praying for vocations–I hope so.

A more likely culpret for decreased vocations–was smaller families–so parents discourage their only son from becoming a preist (many priests I know came from large families), increased educational and career opportunites that started in the 50’s and a whole host of societal issues–such as ease of travel and tv which allowed for much greater exposure to other opportunities. It is far to easy and simplistic to blame female alter servers.

The peace of Christ be with you.
Mark

Your discussion falls flat.

There are a great many reasons why fewer men become priests today. But just because there is more than one reason does in no way suggest we should be ignoring any chance/tool we can to increase the number of men who become priests or deacons.

 

[Franciscum]

philipmarus:

Did not a early draft of the Liturgical document discourage the use of Altar girls unless there was a “just pastoral reason” which was softened somewhat in the final version.

I remember hearing this too on EWTN. I can just imagine the 10 foot blue flames that must have shot out of the rumps of the “liturgists” when they read that one.

Next time, JPII…