End of Altar Girls?

[Franciscum]

katherine2:

Re read jimmy’s post. His is not a posting that says we should have altar girls because there are too few boys. He says we should not put an age restriction on boys because of need and then goes to post that "I do agree that they should return it to being only boys. Like you said, it should foster an interest in the preisthood."

So I will stand by my previous post. Not a singler poster here has said there wouldn’t be enough servers if girls did not serve, contrary to your false claim.

You failed to tell the truth and you became crude.

Any credibility you had is now gone.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

jimmy:

Although that would be ideal, I do not think it is possible to both make it only available to boys and to make the age requirement seventh grade. There would be no where near enough altar servers.

I don’t really understand where this whole idea of “shortages” of altar boys comes from. For instance, my parish of ca. 700 families has 3 weekend Masses (1 Sat., 2 Sun.). We use only 2 altar servers per Mass, meaning that we really only “need” 6 boys from the whole parish to serve and, considering that people sometimes go out of town, even doubling that number of “required” servers to 12 would fall well below the actual size of our male cadre (we do have a smattering of girl altar servers that is ever-increasing).

Some summers during my career as an altar boy the summer vacation “shortages” led to me and another boy serving nearly every single Sunday, but there was never an impression of a shortage because all the “slots” were always filled.

Given this experience, I wonder what people mean by shortages. Does that mean that parishes used to having 6, 8, or more servers cannot fill an extensive rotation, or does it truly indicate that parishes are not able to even supply a modicum of servers for their Masses?

 

[fix]

MarkInOregon:

Rome does not “give in.” If Rome gave in as easily as you seem to imply–then the Churches teaching today would be quite different than it is. We would accept birth control, abortion in the case of rape or incest, we would have women priests, we’d probably be seriously considering gay marriage–but these will never happen in the Church–we’d still have earthen ware chalices. Rome does not just throw up its hands and give in. Rather they consider the issues seriously and make a pastoral decision–one they think is best for the Church.

The peace of Christ be with you.
Mark

Many of the things you mention are taught in parishes around the country. If not openly advocated in every case, a wink and nod is given. If you think the Church is devoid of politics, then you do not know history.

 

[fix]

MarkInOregon:

Not really as what you state is not true. Vocations were down long before the use of female alter servers started–at least in this part of the country and contrary to what everyone seems to think–vocations today are trending back up–are they what we would like–no. Are you all out there praying for vocations–I hope so.

A more likely culpret for decreased vocations–was smaller families–so parents discourage their only son from becoming a preist (many priests I know came from large families), increased educational and career opportunites that started in the 50’s and a whole host of societal issues–such as ease of travel and tv which allowed for much greater exposure to other opportunities. It is far to easy and simplistic to blame female alter servers.

The peace of Christ be with you.
Mark

Please read that quote in the context of that post and the preceding ones. I was not stating a fact, but making a point to another poster about drawing inapproriate conclusions.

 

[fix]

philipmarus:

Did not a early draft of the Liturgical document discourage the use of Altar girls unless there was a “just pastoral reason” which was softened somewhat in the final version.

That was reported. We can’t know for sure, but politics plays a role in things like this.

 

[katherine2]

philipmarus:

Did not a early draft of the Liturgical document discourage the use of Altar girls unless there was a “just pastoral reason” which was softened somewhat in the final version.

So what? Early drafts? The point is not what some bureucrat put in an early draft but the document the Church issued.

I think the critics of altar girls are scraping here. The case for taking away the right of a pastor to use his judgement and instead imposing a universal rule is simply weak. Or, as with Franciscum, things are just made up like attributing claims to other posters that were never made.

 

[fix]

katherine2:

So what? Early drafts? The point is not what some bureucrat put in an early draft but the document the Church issued.

I think the critics of altar girls are scraping here. The case for taking away the right of a pastor to use his judgement and instead imposing a universal rule is simply weak. Or, as with Franciscum, things are just made up like attributing claims to other posters that were never made.

I certainly agree with the church that matters should be handled locally first if at all possible. That presupposes that the local folks think with the mind of the Church and not as innovators with an agenda.

 

[katherine2]

fix:

I certainly agree with the church that matters should be handled locally first if at all possible. That presupposes that the local folks think with the mind of the Church and not as innovators with an agenda.

Then I think we are all happy. The Church leaves this question to pastors. So we are all content with the status quo.

 

[homeschoolhelen]

My son is ten. He expressed an interest last summer to become an altar server. We were thrilled. He is very serious about this and very good. He has such devotion, I am feeling that maybe he has the call to the priesthood.

There are female altar servers at this parish. They are mostly 7, 8, and 9th grade. They wear makeup and fix there hair constantly and their friends sit in the front row and they giggle at eachother through Mass. Once just recently, they were so disruptive with acting like they were falling off the kneelers silently behind the priest who was praying over the Eucharist. My son was serving that Mass and was kneeling on the other side. A man from the parish, after Mass was furious, went into the back and you could hear him yelling at them. He, as a person, had had enough.

Now, I know that, that isn’t the case at most parishes, but it sure put a sour taste in my sons mouth. We occasionally attend a Mass elsewhere that just had boy alter servers. Half way through the Mass, my son leans over and says, “Hey Mom, can we join here?” It completely surprised me.

I think there are many many things girls can do to help with Church, I don’t think they belong as altar servers. Why does it have to be a feminism thing? I am happy being the support to many things. That is my role, MY vocation is to honor our Lord by being behind my husband. That is in the bible. Jesus didn’t put women down, we were important in many factors. Look at the Blessed Mother. Would she be on that altar? No way! She would be in her supporting role.

Blessings,
Helen

 

[katherine2]

Well, Helen, that’s your experience. I can tell you my daughters who were raised as good, progressive Catholics never behaved that way nor do my granddaughters.

My sons don’t either. But I have seen boys serving and making hand signals to their friends, laughing, etc.

If the girls in your parish are not well behaved, I really don’t have a solution for you, other than you are welcome at my parish. But I don’t think it is proper to tell parents who have brought their sons and daughters up right that some universal rule should take away their pastor’s judgement on this matter.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Franciscum:

Your discussion falls flat.

There are a great many reasons why fewer men become priests today. But just because there is more than one reason does in no way suggest we should be ignoring any chance/tool we can to increase the number of men who become priests or deacons.

I am not making an argument–I am simply pointing out that to state the reason we have fewer priests is because we have girl alter servers is false. The post made it seem like thats all we have to blame–and the issue is much deeper than that.

The peace of Christ be with you,
Mark

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’m putting in this link to the Adoremus Bulletin

adoremus.org/CDW-AltarServers.html

because it appears to say that it’s not the priests of a parish who can allow altar girls, but the diocesean BISHOP.

That’s what I had heard previously or read in the links to the documents from 1983, etc., so it surprised me to be reading on this thread that it was somehow a pastor’s “Judgment call”.

I also believe that there are at least two dioceses in the U.S. where altar girls are not permitted to serve. While I make no personal judgment on this matter, it does seem to make the matter not a “parish” one but a diocesean one.

 

[dennisknapp]

katherine2:

Well, Helen, that’s your experience. I can tell you my daughters who were raised as good, progressive Catholics never behaved that way nor do my granddaughters.

My sons don’t either. But I have seen boys serving and making hand signals to their friends, laughing, etc.

If the girls in your parish are not well behaved, I really don’t have a solution for you, other than you are welcome at my parish. But I don’t think it is proper to tell parents who have brought their sons and daughters up right that some universal rule should take away their pastor’s judgement on this matter.

What do you mean by “progressive Catholics?”

 

[fix]

Tantum ergo:

I’m putting in this link to the Adoremus Bulletin

adoremus.org/CDW-AltarServers.html

because it appears to say that it’s not the priests of a parish who can allow altar girls, but the diocesean BISHOP.

That’s what I had heard previously or read in the links to the documents from 1983, etc., so it surprised me to be reading on this thread that it was somehow a pastor’s “Judgment call”.

I also believe that there are at least two dioceses in the U.S. where altar girls are not permitted to serve. While I make no personal judgment on this matter, it does seem to make the matter not a “parish” one but a diocesean one.

Somewhere in one post was the citation from the Vatican that was an answer to a bishop and the Vatican said no priest can be forced to use female servers. The letter also said no one has a “right” to serve.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Somewhere in one post was the citation from the Vatican that was an answer to a bishop and the Vatican said no priest can be forced to use female servers. The letter also said no one has a “right” to serve.

Exactly.
So, while a priest may in fact use his judgment by not allowing altar girls to serve at his parish, he may not be forced against his judgment to allow them.

The “judgment” call is thus not one of a priest choosing to have altar girls, but choosing instead male servers.

Sounds fine to me.

 

[fix]

Tantum ergo:

Exactly.
So, while a priest may in fact use his judgment by not allowing altar girls to serve at his parish, he may not be forced against his judgment to allow them.

The “judgment” call is thus not one of a priest choosing to have altar girls, but choosing instead male servers.

Sounds fine to me.

Yes, so a particular bishop may allow the use of girls, but that does not bind each priest in that diocese and each priest may exclude female servers.

 

[homeschoolhelen]

katherine2:

Well, Helen, that’s your experience. I can tell you my daughters who were raised as good, progressive Catholics never behaved that way nor do my granddaughters.

My sons don’t either. But I have seen boys serving and making hand signals to their friends, laughing, etc.

If the girls in your parish are not well behaved, I really don’t have a solution for you, other than you are welcome at my parish.

Katherine, I agree, it can be boys behaving badly too, though I have not experienced that at all in my 40 years of attending church.

My point isn’t because the girls behave badly, my point is that they don’t belong on the altar as altar servers. Women in general need to realize there is a place in the Church. I don’t feel inferior, I feel greatly blessed being behind the scenes doing my job as a wife, mother, and parishoner. If it wasn’t for us women and our support of our church functions etc., maybe things wouldn’t be as nice!

"But I don’t think it is proper to tell parents who have brought their sons and daughters up right that some universal rule should take away their pastor’s judgement on this matter.

Katherine, I don’t doubt that you did the best that you could bringing up your children!:yup: That doesn’t have to do with girl altar servers. If it is some universal rule, who made the rule? Why go against it? Do you feel women should be the leaders in the church? Can’t we lead by our vocation as wife and mother. I will gladly take the supporting role over the starring role.

Blessings,
Helen

 

[katherine2]

homeschoolhelen:

Katherine, I agree, it can be boys behaving badly too, though I have not experienced that at all in my 40 years of attending church.

You are very fortunate that in 40 years you have never seen a boys behaving badly in church.

My point isn’t because the girls behave badly, my point is that they don’t belong on the altar as altar servers.

I’m not clear then why you brought up their poor behavior.

I feel greatly blessed being behind the scenes doing my job as a wife, mother, and parishoner.

I understand. I too feel greatly blessed in those “jobs” as well as many other “jobs” my faith has led me to.

If it is some universal rule, who made the rule?

Our Holy Father John Paul II made the rule that girls might be altar servers.

Why go against it?

I don’t know. Some people here say that there should be no altar girls ever allowed. I think the current rules work just fine. I would be every much opposed to changing the current rules to totally disallow altar girls.

Do you feel women should be the leaders in the church? Blessings,
Helen

I will pray to SS. Catherine of Sienna & Teresa of Avila on that!!

 

[dennisknapp]

katherine2:

Well, Helen, that’s your experience. I can tell you my daughters who were raised as good, progressive Catholics never behaved that way nor do my granddaughters.

My sons don’t either. But I have seen boys serving and making hand signals to their friends, laughing, etc.

If the girls in your parish are not well behaved, I really don’t have a solution for you, other than you are welcome at my parish. But I don’t think it is proper to tell parents who have brought their sons and daughters up right that some universal rule should take away their pastor’s judgement on this matter.

What do you mean by “progressive Catholics?”

 

[katherine2]

dennisknapp:

What do you mean by “progressive Catholics?”

I have appointed myself pope of progressive Catholicism. Actually, not appointed, its a coup d’etate.