End of Christianity in the Netherlands. An article on the collapse of Christianity in a European country

[commenter]

Genesis315:

The Cardinal interviewed in the article points to this as a cause.

I agree but
how would you answer the objection I see posted on CAF all the time, that although it is true that after Vatican II

The Church then fell into one of the deepest faith crises in its history

that Vatican II did not cause this. We read here post after post claiming that to say Vatican II caused this is to commit the fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc? It was the culture, the 60’s, the rise of secularism, or the smoke of Satan that caused this, but it was not Vatican II.

There is almost an obsession to credit, or, now, to blame V2, for everything. It doesn’t matter if it’s a Catholic or Protestant country, if it’s a Secular trend in 1970 or 2020, it doesn’t matter. It’s all V2.

It’s wrong to ignore history. But it’s also wrong to “live” in one specific decade, one specific event in that decade, not others.

The documents of V2 aren’t going to change. They have been clarified, will be clarified in the future. If websites can raise money by “finding” fatal ambiguities here and there, they will continue to do so forever. No clarification will deter them.

What helpful actions can we take, in 2020? What practical actions are feasible for laity to spread doctrinal content, evangelize, support prolife, in Netherlands or New Jersey in 2020?

 

[Cirdan_XII]

There is almost an obsession to credit, or, now, to blame V2, for everything. It doesn’t matter if it’s a Catholic or Protestant country, if it’s a Secular trend in 1970 or 2020, it doesn’t matter. It’s all V2.

I can only speak for myself here. I was born after V2 and only know about before from my parents and other people who have shared their thoughts and memories with me.

I do not blame V2 for everything. But I consider it to be symptomatic of a broader onslaught on the core essence of the Catholic Church (and Western tradition in a broader sense) that was especially prevalent in the 1960’s and since, but certainly also existed long before that.

When you are an old organization that typically changes slowly, if indeed at all, as indeed the Church is, obviously a cultural tsunami is not going to leave you totally unscathed. I don’t believe ignoring what was going on was an option for the Catholic Church of the day. After all, the Church needs to be a part of the world and not an island away from it. But I think it is legitimate to ask whether V2 did not go too far and give away too much while getting too little back in return.

 

[Maximian]

I do know some people in Holland who are very devoutly Catholic.

Yes so do I. And they think the ungodliness of their country is a terrible problem.

 

[commenter]

I think it is legitimate to ask whether V2 did not go too far and give away too much while getting too little back in return.

Is it helpful if people keep asking certain things (and not other things), over and over? Is it practical or useful, in terms of personal actions of 2020?

One reason the websites are fixated on V2 is that this fixation asks no work from 2020 readers. Once a website starts presenting practical suggestions on what individuals can do right now in 2020 for Evangelism, prolife, etc…well…they shrink.

Action in 2020 takes work by the website reader. I think most readers would rather fixate on something that asks no work, such as Vatican 2. They would find writers, or conferences, that meet that “need.”

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Action in 2020 takes work by the website reader. I think most readers would rather fixate on something that asks no work, such as Vatican 2. They would find writers, or conferences, that meet that “need.”

With all respect , I consider that a sweeping generalization . An Internet forum is obviously a place of talk and not a place of action . But how can you assume that the people posting here are not active and doing something while offline ?

 

[commenter]

commenter:

Action in 2020 takes work by the website reader. I think most readers would rather fixate on something that asks no work, such as Vatican 2. They would find writers, or conferences, that meet that “need.”

With all respect , I consider that a sweeping generalization . An Internet forum is obviously a place of talk and not a place of action . But how can you assume that the people posting here are not active and doing something while offline ?

I’m sure many are. But I don’t think their websites’ fixation on V2 helps their readers’ genuine activity or that of others.

I wasn’t criticizing individuals so much as websites. On a Catholic internet forum there’s a presumption that posters actually take into account what others say, that they are actually curious, not obsessively pushing an agenda.

Currently there’s an effort to flood CAF with threads questioning Vatican 2, asking the same questions repeatedly, even though they have been answered authoritatively by the Magisterium and frequently by posters on CAF. They also insert the Question V2 theme into other threads.

In many cases posters are directly quoting OnePeterFive or similar websites, but more often they copy and paste the argument into a post on CAF, without saying it’s from Remnant, 1p5, etc. They bring up nothing new but recycle questions over and over.

It’s not that V2 is a forbidden topic, but Flooding CAF that is uncharitable.

 

[AlNg]

. And they think the ungodliness of their country is a terrible problem.

This is true in the USA also, with businesses being looted and burned down and people being beaten up and shot on the streets as they try to go to work. And with millions of unborn children being slaughtered as Catholic politicians such as Pelosi and Biden support legalization of abortion and oppose efforts to put decent Catholics on the Supreme Court.

 

[Athanasiy]

I am just thinking, could churches in the Netherlands be pushing politically for more therapeutic rights in places like - hospitals, centers for the disabled, nursing homes?
Let’s say Christian apologetics cannot stand a dispute with the modern world, a wealthy and well-fed society does not need the Good News of Christ, so give Christians the right to comfort and save those who suffer physically and mentally.
Of course, spiritual emptiness is very bad.
Sometimes despair, depression, vices, and defraud precisely because of spiritual devastation, but if you consider that in the labyrinths of religions there is no definiteness, ok, then let the traditional Christianity to comfort the hopeless people, or those who suffering, those who hopelessly sick.

If the international research institutes of religious studies are searching some constructive in religions, some positive, or optimal energies why not to realize the importance of the therapeutic, comforting function in Christianity for those who live in phisical or mental suffering?

 

[Cirdan_XII]

I am just thinking, could churches in the Netherlands be pushing politically for more therapeutic rights in places like - hospitals, centers for the disabled, nursing homes?

As far as I know they are. A Dutch relative of mine was regularly visited by a priest when in hospital. The hospital also had a chapel where Mass was said regularly. Later as things deteriorated she was transferred to a catholic-run hospice where last rights were conferred. She was also buried in a Catholic cemetry by a Catholic undertaker.

There are many other European countries where you might struggle to find such things, or have to go out and look for tem rather than having them offered to you.

 

[Athanasiy]

On the other hand, the activities of Christian communities in the service of society are admired, and other communities abroad should even learn from them.
For example, the activities of the Catholic mission of Mother Tereza in several cities, which on an ongoing basis helping the homeless with hot meals.
The same can be said about the organization of the Salvation Army, which, among other things, helps the homeless with free housing.
These projects are supported by the state and people of good will.
In the station area of Amsterdam you can see a huge building with an inscription in Dutch and English - “Jesus Loves You”
I remember there was a Christian bookstore and a cafe.
There is a very interesting project in very touristic Amsterdam of Christian hostels-
“Shelter City” and “Shelter Jordan”.
It seems to me if you conduct a special study on the agricultural contribution of the Mennonites, on the Catholic charity projects, about how the ethnic evangelical communities save the young from the bad influence of the street, from alcohol and drug addiction, it seems to me that not everything is so pessimistic there.

 

[commenter]

Thanks for the local information! We often make assumptions about places without actual observations.

I’m sure Holland is affected by some of the trends hitting the West in general, but there are always features specific to this country.