End of life discussion

[Michael_Mayo]

Euthansia is already taking place in the United States. The Belgiums want to take killing handicap children out of the ‘dark zone’ as it is already taking place, well the same in the USA with euthanizing our elderly - they want to take it out of the dark zone. The medical community, have an attitude that they are ahead of the law and the law just needs to catch up with them.

They are committing cruel crimes at the hospitals. They violate peoples human rights and the HIPPA law and justify themselves with the disposition that they have the capability of making life determinations for people. Then, when a relatives notes what they are doing and opposes it, they change the hospital records in preparation for law suit and to make it look pretty for the Health Department. The hospital make billions of dollar and are able to buy off politicians, judge and the best lawyers. In turn, the Health Department is set up to basically not do much nor investigate too well. It stinks and its called corruption.

Meanwhile, helpless elderlies are dying horrible deaths in American hospitals. My father who did not have any terminal illness was euthanized at a hospital. When my father found out they were killing him we tried to stop the procedure only to have corrupt judges intervene and try to protect the interest of the hospitals. After the judges retire, they get to receive a sweet check as members of the corporation of the hospitals. It’s sick. It’s really bad. The statue of limitations to sue the hospital will run out for me in 14 days. I don’t have an attorney, it’s hard to find an attorney when other attorneys and a judge was unprofessional - some attorney have told me that it would be like committing professional suicide.

As someone who works in a hospital I find the majority of this post unbelievable. Especially when hospitals are barely making it financially. They certainly are not buying off politicians and judges.
How did they euthanize your father?

 

[Abba]

As someone who works in a hospital I find the majority of this post unbelievable. Especially when hospitals are barely making it financially. They certainly are not buying off politicians and judges.
How did they euthanize your father?

How do you know there is no corruption? Why do you want to speak on behalf of people and organizations you do not even know? The doctor that euthanized my father left the state, I don’t think that you want to speak on his behalf without even knowing him.

Most hospitals are making billions of dollars net profit. How can you claim that most are barely making it? They want more money, and dip into the money of the states for expansions, for instance, but this does not mean that they do not have money. Take a look at the reports of Ernst & Young LLP. The hospital that I have in mind, in particular, nets $2.5 BILLION and increasing, annually, according to Erns & Young, yet, they were awarded millions by the governor of tax payers money to expand. Additionally, the profit is kept off shores and they do not pay taxes because they are supposedly - a not for profit organization. And, they have ex-probate judges as members of the Corporation.

One argument used to justify killing people, often under the guise of ‘palliative care’, is that they are a weigh on medicare - I think the weigh is the medical community. They are the ones that are sucking the system dry - not so much the elderly patients who have a right to live and contributed to the system by mostly working all their lives.

If you want to defend that system and overlook the medical disposition towards patients, that is your prerogative.

You asked how my father was euthanized, very cruelly - slowly. He was deprived of nourishment and hydration and given high dosages of morphine for a couple of weeks. We thought that he was being nourished and hydrated through the IV. It turns out that it was only being used to insert the morphine. That’s torture to continue to deprive someone for a week hydration and nourishment and continue to give him morphine and so kill him as he laid on a bed knowing what people were doing.

The police could not help as they do not have jurisdiction in hospitals only for violent situations not for medical. I want a medical task force established that people can call and who would respond to emergency situation.

Peace

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I am not defending anyone.
I simply said I find your accusations unbelievable. Corruption, euthanasia.
What am I supposed to be looking at from accounting firm Ernst & Young LLP?
Many nonprofits are struggling to maintain a meager %5 margin.

aha.org/content/13/settingrecordstraight.pdf

I am sorry about the loss of your father.
Who was making the medical decisions for him?
Sometimes nutrition and hydration are not absorbed by the body and just swell up in the tissue and lungs.

 

[Abba]

I am not defending anyone.
I simply said I find your accusations unbelievable. Corruption, euthanasia.

Alright, because it is unbelievable than it is not true.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Alright, because it is unbelievable than it is not true.

You must have some pretty strong evidence. Care to share it here? or with your district attorny?

 

[St_Francis]

You must have some pretty strong evidence. Care to share it here? or with your district attorny?

Alright, because it is unbelievable than it is not true.

Around the time of the Terri Schiavo case, there were other similar cases reported. Now… no longer. This does indeed happen, Mr Mayo. There have been cases wrt elderly people and also children. I even heard of a case very similar to Abba’s father’s situation recently–where the patient was sent to hospice and denied hydration and nutrition.

Now, it is *also *true that at the end of life, the patient often becomes incapable of tolerating nutrition and even hydration: the kidneys and liver are shutting down and no longer able to perform their functions. At this point it is not only useless but can be painful to the patient to continue to be nourished and hydrated. **This needs to be explained very clearly to the family. **

 

[St_Francis]

Thank you for the PDF file. I do have an issue with Directive 61 on page 29. Where is states that medications to alleviate pain may be given to the patient even if they may shorten life. I don’t believe that comfort is equated with dignity. I believe Jesus died with great dignity. He refused painkillers. I believe that though the Dr. Has the ethical right to administer painkillers the final decision must be up to the patient and the Dr. has the obligation to inform the patient that the painkillers will not extend life and may even shorten life.
What most doctors do not tell their patients is even when it is not an end of life measure. Painkillers do not extend life (even Tynol damages the liver and should be used with the upmost caution) There are many non-pharmaceutical methods of pain relief prayer and meditation being one.

My dear Mrs Bau,
Yours is a difficult situation and I will pray for you.

The reason the Church allows for pain relief even if sufficient pain relief might shorten life is to protect the patient from despair, which coming at the end of life could cause the eternal damnation of the soul.

Now in your particular situation, given condition and pain tolerance, pain relievers may be less or un-necessary for you. And that is all right. However, the fact that God Himself, in the Person of Christ, was able to handle a painful death without pain relief does not mean that a patient should refuse pain relief. We ourselves are not God.

Additionally, most certainly medical personnel should not deny patients pain relief! This would be abiect cruelty. When I was younger, there was such a fear of addiction (!) that pain relief was restricted. This caused many to suffer unnecessarily.

And finally, scientific studies are showing that when opiods are given to relieve pain, death is rarely hastened (this was surprising). It seems that the pain sort of “soaks up” the effects of the drug.

I hope this information will help you in your decision-making processes.

 

[St_Francis]

so i was having a discussion with a professor of mind and the topic of euthanasia came up.

i thought i said it was wrong, and she went in to a whole story about how her dad tried to kill himself when he had been tired of living and how he should have had that medical option and all that.

i tried to disagree but i don’t think i really got anywhere. of course, she’s not a christian so she compared it with mercy killiings for animals which of course, i said wasn’t the same thing at all.

i know i cna’t change peoples’ opinions but the next part concerns me.

she started talking about her own living will and how she had written that she didn’t want any kind of life support if anything happened. and she said “i expect my friends to pull the plug in that case” and patted my arm.

the thing is, her an i are pretty close and i’m afraid of being stuck in that very situation someday. according to catohlic teaching, is one allowed to say that they don’t want life support if something happened to them?

i guess the only good thing about the living will is that i woulldn’t have to make any decisions if it did come to it.

The best thing for your friend and for all people to do is to have a ledical power of attorney. This should be in place even for those with relatives: for example, who would decide for me should my husband and I both be in a car accident? I don’t want it to be my children! And your friend should not leave it up to “friends,” but one or two definite people who share her ideas.

So, each person should have someone who understands the person’s way of thinking and who is somewhat assertive to be an advocate for the person as a patient.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Around the time of the Terri Schiavo case, there were other similar cases reported. Now… no longer. This does indeed happen, Mr Mayo. There have been cases wrt elderly people and also children. I even heard of a case very similar to Abba’s father’s situation recently–where the patient was sent to hospice and denied hydration and nutrition.

Now, it is *also *true that at the end of life, the patient often becomes incapable of tolerating nutrition and even hydration: the kidneys and liver are shutting down and no longer able to perform their functions. At this point it is not only useless but can be painful to the patient to continue to be nourished and hydrated. **This needs to be explained very clearly to the family. **

So, each person should have someone who understands the person’s way of thinking and who is somewhat assertive to be an advocate for the person as a patient.

I think we all agree on the need for end of life discussion and designating a trustworthy representative aware of our desires with an Advance Directive in case we cannot make our own decisions.

 

[savedbygrace71]

I recently signed a new form for my grandmother who is 94 and living in a memory care unit at assisted living. We had to think very carefully about what would she want, what was safe and humane, and not put our own wishes ahead of her best interests.

For example, the first time we filled it out, we had indicated we would want a feeding tube placed. However, on more research and discussion we just knew it was inappropriate for her. A very invasive procedure to place it, and then what? How long do you leave it in to keep her alive? Easy to place, hard to remove.

As patients age, they lose their natural appetite for food and drink. It is part of the natural, slow dying process. We have gotten wonderful help and support from Hospice and Palliative care in our community, they absolutely have zero motivation to influence our decisions one way or another.

Mrs. Bau, prayers that you get better support in your health care. I hope there is someone who can help you navigate all this, as it is overwhelming and frustrating.

 

[Holly3278]

The Church’s teaching is clear. Euthanasia for people is evil and is murder.

**2324 **Intentional euthanasia, whatever its forms or motives, is murder. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2324
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

**2277 **Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons. It is morally unacceptable.

Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator. The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded.

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2277.htm

Here are some links to help you defend the teaching of the Catholic Church:

catholic.com/video/euthanasia-is-morally-wrong

catholic.com/radio/shows/the-truth-about-euthanasia-4450

catholicapologetics.org/moral/euthanasia.htm

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/life-and-family/euthanasia-and-assisted-suicide/a-catholic-view-on-euthanasia/

This is from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops:

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/end-of-life/euthanasia/

And this is from the Vatican:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19800505_euthanasia_en.html

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdlife/documents/rc_pa_acdlife_doc_20001209_eutanasia_en.html

 

[maryjk]

The best thing for your friend and for all people to do is to have a ledical power of attorney. This should be in place even for those with relatives: for example, who would decide for me should my husband and I both be in a car accident? I don’t want it to be my children! And your friend should not leave it up to “friends,” but one or two definite people who share her ideas.

So, each person should have someone who understands the person’s way of thinking and who is somewhat assertive to be an advocate for the person as a patient.

Are your children, “children” or adults?

I was the medical power of attorney for both my mother and my father. I was (and am) in my forties.

I actually think that makes more sense than someone that doesn’t know you or is just a friend. Or even worse, an attorney.

 

[St_Francis]

Are your children, “children” or adults?

I was the medical power of attorney for both my mother and my father. I was (and am) in my forties.

I actually think that makes more sense than someone that doesn’t know you or is just a friend. Or even worse, an attorney.

Well, the oldest of mine is only 21, so at least for now I’d rather have my Catholic friend be my representative. I don’t want to put it on an older relative because none of them “gets” Church teaching on life issues–which is why my folks don’t have me listed as theirs, even tho I’m older than you are.

I think every family and every situation is different, and this is why the proposed solutions are generally open-ended.

 

[maryjk]

Well, the oldest of mine is only 21, so at least for now I’d rather have my Catholic friend be my representative.** I don’t want to put it on an older relative because none of them “gets” Church teaching on life issues**–which is why my folks don’t have me listed as theirs, even tho I’m older than you are.

I think every family and every situation is different, and this is why the proposed solutions are generally open-ended.

That is really the most important. The person you name needs to know what to do. What you would want and who to call if questions come up.

For me, right now, that is my husband. (And was my father and mother.) My husband isn’t Catholic, but he understands the ins and outs of my beliefs.

For my parents, that was me. Of course, I was a full grown adult, with a child of my own.

 

[St_Francis]

That is really the most important. The person you name needs to know what to do. What you would want and who to call if questions come up.

For me, right now, that is my husband. (And was my father and mother.) My husband isn’t Catholic, but he understands the ins and outs of my beliefs.

For my parents, that was me. Of course, I was a full grown adult, with a child of my own.

yes, exactly