End-of-pew blockers

[Annabelle_Marie]

No, but thoughout life, including while at church, the children themselves, as children, NEED special consideration (which doesn’t necessarily require their parents having the aisle seat, but might be greatly helped by it, especially when the person who would be giving up the aisle seat has no particular requirement for one).

But you can not know that by looking at someone…And I for one don’t want to have to explain why each time…

At least when you see someone with kids, you know why…without asking.

Bottom line…lets not assume the worst in every one…you have no idea what cross Christ has asked them to carry.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I attend the traditional Latin Mass. Despite our smaller congregation, we actually have more children in attendance than the OF Masses at our parish. Perhaps they should be the ones to start bringing their children to Mass. Anyway, it used to be customary to leave ones children at home with one parent and switch off attending different Masses.

Anyway, people assume that because children are expected to be quiet and to behave themselves, and if they are not able to do that, the parents should take them outside until they quieten down again (something which our priest refers to as “common sense”), that we are somehow “anti-children” and not pro-life. No, we just have expectations that proper church decorum be respected.

As a child…I was always expected to sit still and be quiet…we had no cry room then. If we didn’t, dad would take us outside where there was no witnesses…

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I attend the traditional Latin Mass. Despite our smaller congregation, we actually have more children in attendance than the OF Masses at our parish. Perhaps they should be the ones to start bringing their children to Mass. Anyway, it used to be customary to leave ones children at home with one parent and switch off attending different Masses. Anyway, people assume that because children are expected to be quiet and to behave themselves, and if they are not able to do that, the parents should take them outside until they quieten down again (something which our priest refers to as “common sense”), that we are somehow “anti-children” and not pro-life. No, we just have expectations that proper church decorum be respected.

DeoGratias- We got off to a rough start friend…I offended you obviously because of my foul mood. I apologize.

I completely agree with you on this. I wondered who the ‘we’ was that you had referred to earlier. I expected that it might have been a TLM parish…

My kids are actually well behaved thank God. Occasional potty breaks of course…
I’d like to attend a TLM sometime and was assured that the kids would be welcome.

Side note…

A few weeks ago, Father asked all the kids who attend the local catholic school to come on up and I was shocked that my daughter was the only one who stopped to bow while passing the altar. 5 years old. 30 kids going to catholic school (school is not in our parish) and one pre-schooler knew to do this.
So yes I’d like to go to a TLM.

 

[SMHW]

That’s right…you got it…I don’t unless a brief exchange happens. So, I’ll have to work on:

1. Getting up and out the door earlier.
2. Growing a pair and asking people to move.

I hope by “move” you are including the option for people to stand up and move out of the way so you can pass them.

Does anyone care to weigh in on how this silly situation was handled before say…1962?
Was it always such a hot-button topic?

I was too young to remember what happened prior to 1962 but in my earliest 1960s recollections of my family attending Mass (and usually getting there late) there was a pretty even mix between those who stood to let us have the middle seats and those who moved over to allow us to take the end seats.
What I mostly remember was that we usually had to split the family into two or three groups because there often wasn’t enough seating for the seven of us to be together.

 

[zab]

I attend the traditional Latin Mass. Despite our smaller congregation, we actually have more children in attendance than the OF Masses at our parish. Perhaps they should be the ones to start bringing their children to Mass. Anyway, it used to be customary to leave ones children at home with one parent and switch off attending different Masses.

Anyway, people assume that because children are expected to be quiet and to behave themselves, and if they are not able to do that, the parents should take them outside until they quieten down again (something which our priest refers to as “common sense”), that we are somehow “anti-children” and not pro-life. No, we just have expectations that proper church decorum be respected.

Well, if there are fewer children in attendance at the OF, maybe you should…never mind.
Sometimes it is how you talk to the parents that make them feel like they are welcome or not. I can see where some may not feel welcome if they sense that they are being talked down to, rather than made to feel welcome while at the same time letting them know that it is OK to take their children out if need be and that they are not alone. But some parents do what they feel is best regardless of hurt feelings.

 

[cradlecatholic5]

Certainly a 15 year old would not only get themselves ready, they could also help getting the younger children ready.

Really? Sometimes the teenagers were the worst offenders when wanting to attend Mass.

Armor of Light, I understand and feel your pain. Hugs to you. :hug3:

I LOVE the children around me. That’s OUR FUTURE! New little Catholics.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I hope by “move” you are including the option for people to stand up and move out of the way so you can pass them. I was too young to remember what happened prior to 1962 but in my earliest 1960s recollections of my family attending Mass (and usually getting there late) there was a pretty even mix between those who stood to let us have the middle seats and those who moved over to allow us to take the end seats. What I mostly remember was that we usually had to split the family into two or three groups because there often wasn’t enough seating for the seven of us to be together.

Yes…of course I don’t mind if others let us by. We slide over, but whatever works…I was taught to slide in so I still do. Potty breaks or not. Sliding in to the middle actually helps deter the mysterious potty breaks

Oh…if only the pews were filled like back then! I actually wish we had that problem.

Like I said our parish has plenty of farmland in between the people on the ends and rarely have I seen it filled for 11:45 AM mass.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Really? Sometimes the teenagers were the worst offenders when wanting to attend Mass. Armor of Light, I understand and feel your pain. Hugs to you. :hug3: I LOVE the children around me. That’s OUR FUTURE! New little Catholics.

Thanks!

Yeah…when I saw that comment…
I thought ‘Uhh…on what planet is that happening?’

The minute my oldest starts in on the ‘I don’t wanna go to mass…its booooring’ thing is when by some magic all the others do it too!

Help indeed…

 

[Sarabande]

Does anyone care to weigh in on how this silly situation was handled before say…1962?
Was it always such a hot-button topic?

I’ve tried to find out from this forum in the past how this was handled back in the day. I guess most people my grandmother’s age don’t go on the Internet or those who were alive back then were too young to remember, but I ended up asking my grandmother.

She told me that people didn’t bring young children to mass back then. She never did (she had six) and never remembered anyone else bringing them to her parish. My grandfather would watch the younger children while she brought the older children to mass. He was a Lutheran, so it worked out well in their situation (although he was in the process of joining RCIA the year he passed away). But other families where both parents were Catholic had to take turns going to mass. When they had their first child, there were two priests at that particular parish. The priest who was not saying the mass would actually watch their son, pushing him in the pram outside or in the sacristy while mass was going on. Again, people didn’t bring babies to mass at that church either.

I don’t know if this was the case everywhere, but it was at all of the parishes my grandmother was part of growing up and as an adult. We’re from a very Catholic area, too, where it wasn’t strange to see three Catholic parishes within a couple blocks of each other.

 

[Sarabande]

Thanks!

Yeah…when I saw that comment…
I thought ‘Uhh…on what planet is that happening?’

The minute my oldest starts in on the ‘I don’t wanna go to mass…its booooring’ thing is when by some magic all the others do it too!

Help indeed…

Oh, gosh, I’m in for it. My two year old is already telling me sometimes she doesn’t want to go to mass whenever I talk about us going. “Noooooooo! Mommy, pleeeaaassse! I don’t want to go to mass.” Like it’s punishment for her. lol!

 

[RyanBlack]

Anyway, people assume that because children are expected to be quiet and to behave themselves, and if they are not able to do that, the parents should take them outside until they quieten down again (something which our priest refers to as “common sense”), that we are somehow “anti-children” and not pro-life. No, we just have expectations that proper church decorum be respected.

Well, I generally agree with your position. I would just add a few things.

One is that different people have different standards as to exactly when a child should be removed. I suspect that at my parish, there is probably a very small number who would prefer that we not bring our son at all until he is older and can still perfectly still and entirely quiet for 90 minutes. There are no doubt other who don’t think like this, but who think we should remove him sooner than we do. Then, there are others who aren’t bothered by his behavior at all. I think that patience with young children, as well as with their parents should be the rule here. I think this as a parent, and I thought this way before I became a parent.

A second thing that I would add is that there can be cases where it might be necessary to removed a child from the nave to the foyer, or even entirely outside, more than once during a service. I know that with my son, it is not unusual for us to have to take him to the foyer two of three times within the same Divine Liturgy. For us, there’s really no issue with worrying about having to ask multiple people to let us out of a pew; we attend a small Eastern Catholic parish, so can always set on the end, and it’s not unusual that we have an entire pew to ourselves. However, if we were to attend a large parish where the church is generally packed, it would certainly be much less disruptive to the other people sharing a pew with us if they were to allow us to set at either end of the pew, particularly in those cases where there’s merely a preference, rather than a real need for the other person to have an aisle seat. Now I’m not saying that there’s an obligation for anyone else to do so, or that I would be angry with the other people if they refused to offer us a seat at the end. I’m just saying that it would be a much appreciated act of kindness.

Finally, I would add that some children, for reasons of their particular stage of development, for reasons of developmental disabilities, or for certain medical conditions, simply cannot, by any reasonable standard, be “expected to be quiet and behave themselves” for any more than a few moments at a time. Please take into consideration that this can being far more trying on the parents, who must live with this reality daily, than it is on the other people at Mass/Divine Liturgy. Parents in such families do not need our disapproving glances, scoldings after Mass/Divine Liturgy, unsolicited advice, or accusations that they are being selfish by bringing such children to church in the first place. They need for us to be supportive, loving, and patient with them and with their children.

 

[mountee]

At the risk of causing any more disagreement, I really have to say that I have had a range of reactions to this thread going from hurt feelings to angry feelings to enlightenment. I do not think that anyone should care if someone is sitting on the end of the pew no matter what their reason might be. I also think that anyone who has shared their private reasons for doing so should not have anyone who wants to be considered a Christian try to make them feel bad about anxiety problems as if it was something they could just snap their fingers and be done with it. Judging by your posts, Armor of Light, you were just having a bad day and have apologized to me and others. If you had posted in a different way, just asked people to tell you why they sit at the end of a pew,this thread might not have gone down the path it did. For me, I am always going to be at the end of the row, that includes our season football tickets, the movies, the band concert at the high school and on and on. I will always be glad to let you by to your seat but I won’t let you make me feel bad about this. So, having read some of what is posted here, I can do something on my part that I have not done before and that is try to sit on the end of a pew where someone has already moved to the middle. That is my part of the compromise, some of you who have such strong feelings on this, where can you compromise?

 

[RyanBlack]

it used to be customary to leave ones children at home with one parent and switch off attending different Masses.

This was a custom that ought never have arisen in the first place, in my opinion. I do not believe that this is healthy. For families with a number of children, it can mean that husband and wife do not attend Mass together literally for years. Also, in some places, it’s totally impractical. If my wife and I were to do this, it would mean that we would have to attend different parishes, since our church is nearly thirty miles away and has more than one liturgy only twice per month. Even on the Sundays when there are two liturgies, one is a Melkite liturgy and we are totally lost with the Arabic, and it wouldn’t work anyway, without having one of us drive one car to the 10AM liturgy, the other stay home with our son and drive, with our son, to the 12 noon liturgy, and hand off our son to the one who went to the 10AM liturgy. It’s just ridiculous that we would be expected to do such a thing, and until a few months ago, we only had one Sunday Divine Liturgy every week, which is generally the case with Eastern Catholic parishes.

Also, I believe that children should be brought to Mass/Divine Liturgy regularly, beginning in infancy. My son went to DIvine Liturgy for the first time when he as not quite three weeks old, and he about six weeks premature. He has attended on weekly basis (with a few exceptions of course) ever since. So for him, going to church is second nature. He expects it. He does not try to get out of going. And in our Eastern Catholic tradition, he receives Holy Communion, and has since he was baptized and chrismated at two months of age.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

At the risk of causing any more disagreement, I really have to say that I have had a range of reactions to this thread going from hurt feelings to angry feelings to enlightenment. I do not think that anyone should care if someone is sitting on the end of the pew no matter what their reason might be. I also think that anyone who has shared their private reasons for doing so should not have anyone who wants to be considered a Christian try to make them feel bad about anxiety problems as if it was something they could just snap their fingers and be done with it. Judging by your posts, Armor of Light, you were just having a bad day and have apologized to me and others. If you had posted in a different way, just asked people to tell you why they sit at the end of a pew,this thread might not have gone down the path it did. For me, I am always going to be at the end of the row, that includes our season football tickets, the movies, the band concert at the high school and on and on. I will always be glad to let you by to your seat but I won’t let you make me feel bad about this. So, having read some of what is posted here, I can do something on my part that I have not done before and that is try to sit on the end of a pew where someone has already moved to the middle. That is my part of the compromise, some of you who have such strong feelings on this, where can you compromise?

Hey…what good is the internet if we can’t let off a little steam?
I’m glad some of us also got some food for thought out of this.

 

[Sarabande]

I’ve tried to find out from this forum in the past how this was handled back in the day. I guess most people my grandmother’s age don’t go on the Internet or those who were alive back then were too young to remember, but I ended up asking my grandmother.
…

.

I realized I was confusing a few posts and didn’t answer your question. Sorry. I don’t know what people did in the past. Perhaps because a lot of people were part of large families back then, most families took up the entire or at least half the pew so you didn’t have empty space in the middle usually?

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Well, I generally agree with your position. I would just add a few things.

One is that different people have different standards as to exactly when a child should be removed.

Not to worry. Our priest has given an easy to follow quantitative guideline- If your child is murmuring, mumbling, crying, being disruptive, etc for more than 6 seconds, then one of the parents is to remove the child from the church until they have quietened down again. The same rule is to be observed with other things such a coughing.

Then, there are others who aren’t bothered by his behavior at all. I think that patience with young children, as well as with their parents should be the rule here. I think this as a parent, and I thought this way before I became a parent.

Unfortunately many parents neglect to take church acoustics into account and just how distracting their children can be. Our priest has actually missed parts of the Canon because the noise travels into the sanctuary so much that it distracts him. That’s a major problem. Parents need to stop thinking of themselves and start thinking of how what their children do affect other people.

A second thing that I would add is that there can be cases where it might be necessary to removed a child from the nave to the foyer, or even entirely outside, more than once during a service. …] However, if we were to attend a large parish where the church is generally packed, it would certainly be much less disruptive to the other people sharing a pew with us if they were to allow us to set at either end of the pew, particularly in those cases where there’s merely a preference, rather than a real need for the other person to have an aisle seat.

If you anticipate there is going to be an issue that you will need the end of the pew, then leave the house earlier to arrive earlier to get the end of the pew. I don’t see the issue with this.

Finally, I would add that some children, for reasons of their particular stage of development, for reasons of developmental disabilities, or for certain medical conditions, simply cannot, by any reasonable standard, be “expected to be quiet and behave themselves” for any more than a few moments at a time. Please take into consideration that this can being far more trying on the parents, who must live with this reality daily, than it is on the other people at Mass/Divine Liturgy. Parents in such families do not need our disapproving glances, scoldings after Mass/Divine Liturgy, unsolicited advice, or accusations that they are being selfish by bringing such children to church in the first place. They need for us to be supportive, loving, and patient with them and with their children.

Yet parents with young children who do have developmental disabilities are still able to keep their children in line during Mass. It sometimes involves taking them out more often, but give them some credit. They can and do learn how to behave.

 

[RyanBlack]

Parents need to stop thinking of themselves and start thinking of how what their children do affect other people.

That can easily be turned around. People who always complain about noisy children in church need to stop thinking of themselves and think of the needs of families with young children.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

As a child…I was always expected to sit still and be quiet…we had no cry room then. If we didn’t, dad would take us outside where there was no witnesses…

When I was a kid, my mom informs me I was a little angel who sat perfectly still and quiet during Mass. We never had any issues getting the end of the pew as we left early for Mass.

 

[RyanBlack]

If you anticipate there is going to be an issue that you will need the end of the pew, then leave the house earlier to arrive earlier to get the end of the pew. I don’t see the issue with this.

You don’t see the issue with this because you’re not a parent of a young child. It seems simple enough, but the realities of lire with young children have a way of making things turn out differently from how you planned, in spite of your best efforts.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

That can easily be turned around. People who always complain about noisy children in church need to stop thinking of themselves and think of the needs of families with young children.

The priest needs to say the words of consecration during Mass, and say them correctly. If one’s children are behaving in such a manner that distract him to the point he can’t do this, then there’s no point in them or anyone even being there. There are some things during Mass which are actual needs. I think the priest’s needs in order to offer a valid Mass trump everyone else’s.