End Times Speculation - A Different View

[SteveVH]

The reason why it is too much for some to understand is that, even though this is the Non-Catholic Religions part of the Forum, most of the posters are Catholic since this is CAF! You can’t really expect Catholics (or Muslims, or Jews) to agree with the tenets of your religion and thereby forfeit, at least to some extent, the tenets of their own.

BTW, it may seem paradoxical since there are numerous miracles described in the Hebrew Bible, but Judaism, similar to the Baha’i faith, is not based on miracles either.

Really? Moses dividing the Red Sea and striking a rock with his staff bringing forth water seem like miracles to me. How about his staff turning into a serpent? How about manna in the desert. That’s just real quick off the top of my head.

But I don’t think anyone has said that the Christian religion is based upon miracles. Our religion is based upon the Person, Jesus Christ. Miracles are signs of God’s presence. When Jesus claims to have the authority to forgive sins and then tells a paralytic to stand and walk, and he does, it is a sign that Jesus does indeed have authority over sin. Is it easier to say “Your sins have been forgiven” or to say to a paralytic “Stand, pick up your mat and go home”? They are certainly not the determining factor in weighing Christ’s validity. But they don’t hurt either.

I also do not base my opinion of the Baha’i faith on whether or not Baha’u’llah performed miracles. We have been warned that there will be false prophets who will perform extraordinary signs and “miracles” claiming to be the Christ.

 

[openmind77]

Yes of course dear friend. I didn’t say they didn’t do “anything”, I was simply saying that by your criteria of what a Saviour does, they didn’t achieve the outcome. Would you agree?

If they “succeeded in teaching spirituality to tens of millions - over a billion humans”, then I assume you would consider Muhammad a Saviour too?

Can you tell me please what is the difference between “establishing righteousness” and “banish all evil from the Earth”?

Thankyou

Why would humanity need to be ready for it?
A Saviour comes and Judges humanity (according to your scenario and understanding). What has that got to do with humanities readiness?

What do you see in the world today that indicates a readiness for a Judging Saviour?

“This time, its for real”…

The famous last words of ALL Jews who rejected Jesus.
The famous last words of ALL Christians and Muslims who rejected Baha’u’llah.

Can you provide rational reasoning as to why you think Baha’u’llah is less of a Saviour 180 years after His coming and He has 10 million followers, but Jesus was a greater Saviour 180 years after His coming and He only had 1.6 million followers?

I would also assume that you consider Muhammad the greatest Saviour of all time with His rapid growth of followers?

Either way, I would appreciate an analysis as to why numbers are so important given the short span of existence of the Baha’i Faith?

Thankyou.

.

I don’t know where I set a criteria for a Savior. Their purpose is to spread the message of God - the difference between them and other religious leaders is that they have the divine spirit incarnated in them. I think both Krishna and Jesus succeeded quite well in spreading the word of God

Muhammad was a Prophet, not a Savior and the spread of Islam was largely by the sword.

You can not call Bahaullah a World Savior when 90% of the world has not heard of him and never will. A world Savior is just that - someone accepted as a Savior by a large portion of the world. Otherwise you could sit at home and say you are Savior except that nobody knows about you.

It may have taken Christianity 1000 years to spread and Hinduism longer, but that was then. Today we are in a globalized world with instant communication, . If today you are not known everywhere in a few years, then you never will be.

We don’t have to wait long to see if these are famous last words. I believe the Day of Judgment started late 2012 or early 2013. The Savior (whatever name you want to call him) should be here in 2 to 3 years. You can argue with Him about what is his purpose when he is here and whether the world is ready. I am just telling what I believe. But Bahaullah is still a footnote in history and always will be, you should accept that - sooner the better.

 

[SteveVH]

Always happy to apologize Steve. In fact I do it a lot. I did it to Paul Dupre on this thread, especially when I unintentionally misrepresent someones thoughts and words. I think you are correct however, maybe I should apologize more. Maybe the whole Baha’i Faith should apologize for how it positions itself with its Revelation. Maybe anyone who shares thoughts that do not align with Catholic thinking and teaching should apologize too.

I believe that this is all we are doing here. After all, this is the non-Catholic religions forum isn’t it? If its the “Catholic thoughts only please” forum, then I sincerely do apologize

.

What are we, back in third grade?

 

[SteveVH]

Really? Moses dividing the Red Sea and striking a rock with his staff bringing forth water seem like miracles to me. How about his staff turning into a serpent? How about manna in the desert. That’s just real quick off the top of my head.

But I don’t think anyone has said that the Christian religion is based upon miracles. Our religion is based upon the Person, Jesus Christ. Miracles are signs of God’s presence. When Jesus claims to have the authority to forgive sins and then tells a paralytic to stand and walk, and he does, it is a sign that Jesus does indeed have authority over sin. Is it easier to say “Your sins have been forgiven” or to say to a paralytic “Stand, pick up your mat and go home”? They are certainly not the determining factor in weighing Christ’s validity. But they don’t hurt either.

I also do not base my opinion of the Baha’i faith on whether or not Baha’u’llah performed miracles. We have been warned that there will be false prophets who will perform extraordinary signs and “miracles” claiming to be the Christ.

 

[SteveVH]

BTW, it may seem paradoxical since there are numerous miracles described in the Hebrew Bible, but Judaism, similar to the Baha’i faith, is not based on miracles either.

Sorry, meltzerboy, I misread this the first time around. I see that you do acknowledge “numerous miracles” in the Hebrew Bible.

 

[Servant19]

It may have taken Christianity 1000 years to spread and Hinduism longer, but that was then. Today we are in a globalized world with instant communication, . If today you are not known everywhere in a few years, then you never will be.

.

Thankyou openmind.

Are you here equating “knowledge of” a Saviour with the “spread of” the religion?

I only ask because by the logic you present, Christianity and Hinduism should have had a time in history when ALL people on the planet were Hindus or Christians.

Why do you think that, given the modern technologies of spreading knowledge which you have discussed, (such as internet etc) that neither of these two Salvific religions created close to 100% global membership?

Knowledge of the existence of Baha’u’llah does not depend on the internet. Ask half the people in Asia or Africa who is the English Prime Minister, they won’t know. To acquire knowledge of something, you have to have a thirst to search for it. For knowledge to come to you in a conversation, it requires numbers to come and tell the masses about it. It is irrational to say that the lack of knowledge of Baha’u’llah is related to His legitimacy as a Saviour.

It absolutely has everything to do with lack of thirst for spirituality, or a new belief system, in our current climate (and this is no different to Krishna or Jesus’ time) and lack of numbers to make a heart to heart connection. That’s the rational reasoning.

Your reasoning behind why people do not become Baha’is once they hear of Baha’u’llah is also flawed. Why do so many people who have heard of Jesus not become Christians?
The internet exists for Christianity as it does for the Bahai Faith, but numbers tell us that by percentage growth, the Bahai Faith is the fastest growing religion on earth (according to Wikipedia)

In socilological terms there is no difference between Baha’u’llah, Christ and Krishna.

I appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks.

.

 

[Servant19]

The reason why it is too much for some to understand is that, even though this is the Non-Catholic Religions part of the Forum, most of the posters are Catholic since this is CAF! You can’t really expect Catholics (or Muslims, or Jews) to agree with the tenets of your religion and thereby forfeit, at least to some extent, the tenets of their own.

BTW, it may seem paradoxical since there are numerous miracles described in the Hebrew Bible, but Judaism, similar to the Baha’i faith, is not based on miracles either.

This is very interesting meltzerboy.

Do you have a link that I can study something about the significance (or lack of) miracles in the Jewish faith please?

Thanks and G-d bless .

.

 

[total_Catholic]

This entire thread started out promising but alas, became a major tug of war. Can we just listen to people and show respect for others who may have different beliefs?

 

[openmind77]

Thankyou openmind.

Are you here equating “knowledge of” a Saviour with the “spread of” the religion?

I only ask because by the logic you present, Christianity and Hinduism should have had a time in history when ALL people on the planet were Hindus or Christians.

Why do you think that, given the modern technologies of spreading knowledge which you have discussed, (such as internet etc) that neither of these two Salvific religions created close to 100% global membership?

Knowledge of the existence of Baha’u’llah does not depend on the internet. Ask half the people in Asia or Africa who is the English Prime Minister, they won’t know. To acquire knowledge of something, you have to have a thirst to search for it. For knowledge to come to you in a conversation, it requires numbers to come and tell the masses about it. It is irrational to say that the lack of knowledge of Baha’u’llah is related to His legitimacy as a Saviour.

It absolutely has everything to do with lack of thirst for spirituality, or a new belief system, in our current climate (and this is no different to Krishna or Jesus’ time) and lack of numbers to make a heart to heart connection. That’s the rational reasoning.

Your reasoning behind why people do not become Baha’is once they hear of Baha’u’llah is also flawed. Why do so many people who have heard of Jesus not become Christians?
The internet exists for Christianity as it does for the Bahai Faith, but numbers tell us that by percentage growth, the Bahai Faith is the fastest growing religion on earth (according to Wikipedia)

In socilological terms there is no difference between Baha’u’llah, Christ and Krishna.

I appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks.

.

If you ask people anywhere in the world who is Jesus more than half of them will have known about him, but 95% of them have not heard about Bahaullah and never will.

And you say both of them are equally ‘World’ Saviors? Don’t people have to at least have heard of you, in order to be saved by you?

It is OK to live in your dreamworld for now, but some day soon you may have to wake up, perhaps with a rude shock.

 

[Servant19]

but 95% of them have not heard about Bahaullah and never will.

Where do you get this stat from?

The Baha’i Holy sites and Temples are the most visited buildings in their respective countries/continents.

Do you see the Lotus Temple in my signature, it has more visitors per year than the Taj Mahal according to CNN figures.

What’s the source of your stats openmind?

.

 

[openmind77]

Where do you get this stat from?

The Baha’i Holy sites and Temples are the most visited buildings in their respective countries/continents.

Do you see the Lotus Temple in my signature, it has more visitors per year than the Taj Mahal according to CNN figures.

What’s the source of your stats openmind?

.

OK, Ok I stand corrected - maybe Bahaullah is almost as well know as Jesus now or will be in some distant future - but I really doubt it.

 

[Servant19]

OK, Ok I stand corrected - maybe Bahaullah is almost as well know as Jesus now or will be in some distant future - but I really doubt it.

LOL…I like you brother. I hope we meet one day. I think I would really enjoy your company!

Please note that according to many tourism websites, the Lotus Temple in India has already surpassed the visitors to the Eiffel Tower!
tourism-of-india.com/lotus-temple-newdelhi.html

And the Temples the Baha’is are building are increasing every day. The Chile Temple is next:
templo.bahai.cl/index_eng.htm

(do you think all of South America will not hear about Baha’u’llah with the building of this Temple?)

I still also don’t understand though, why you feel Krishna is a Saviour yet there was no Judgement (as you describe it) after His coming. Evil still existed aplenty after Krishna.

Can you explain that please?

.

 

[openmind77]

LOL…I like you brother. I hope we meet one day. I think I would really enjoy your company!

Please note that according to many tourism websites, the Lotus Temple in India has already surpassed the visitors to the Eiffel Tower!
tourism-of-india.com/lotus-temple-newdelhi.html

And the Temples the Baha’is are building are increasing every day. The Chile Temple is next:
templo.bahai.cl/index_eng.htm

(do you think all of South America will not hear about Baha’u’llah with the building of this Temple?

I still don’t understand though, why you feel Krishna is a Saviour yet there was no Judgement (as you describe it) after His coming. Evil still existed aplenty after Krishna.

Can you explain that please?

.

I never said every Savior is associated with a Judgment Day. The last Judgment Day of our planet was about a 100,000 years ago and there have been lots of Saviors since that time.

As Jesus predicted this Judgment Day has come with the Return of the Christ which will happen pretty soon (but it has nothing to do with Bahaullah or Mr. Bab)

 

[tonyfish58]

This entire thread started out promising but alas, became a major tug of war. Can we just listen to people and show respect for others who may have different beliefs?

Thank you total Catholic, yes it was disappointing to see the thread somewhat derailed. Love and Respect are such humbling but Powerful Virtues.

Interestingly though the threads are somewhat Off Topic, this actually does tie into the End Times.

When one receives Faith and the Love of God, sometimes we just get a bit carried away wanting to share this Love and Faith.

Consider the warnings in the bible;

(2 Timothy) “3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth”.

It does not mean people are not sincere in what they believe, but the way to share that belief has been clouded with Self, Gods Principles are set aside and the unwanted virtues that are noted above creep back into our lives.

We are told by Baha’u’llah that we are not exempt from the promptings of self as these times are in turmoil and it will take great effort to Love God how we should. You as a Lover of God through Christ know this only too well, we all Confess our shortcomings to God.

Lets Hope we can share more about what others think about End Times and in particular in relation to the state of the World as it Currently is.

There is much written in the Baha’i Faith as to what will happen and I can safely say a lot of these recent events are signs of troubling times ahead - God Protect us all

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

I never said every Savior is associated with a Judgment Day. The last Judgment Day of our planet was about a 100,000 years ago and there have been lots of Saviors since that time.

As Jesus predicted this Judgment Day has come with the Return of the Christ which will happen pretty soon (but it has nothing to do with Bahaullah or Mr. Bab)

My apologies, I must have misunderstood when I asked if you could link this in with the passage in the Bhagavad Gita, and you said that they were all Avatars/Saviours.

So why can’t Baha’u’llah be considered a Saviour on par with the Saviours who did not bring a Judgement Day, like Krishna, Moses, Jesus?

Is that not a rational conclusion to make?

.

 

[meltzerboy]

My apologies, I must have misunderstood when I asked if you could link this in with the passage in the Bhagavad Gita, and you said that they were all Avatars/Saviours.

So why can’t Baha’u’llah be considered a Saviour on par with the Saviours who did not bring a Judgement Day, like Krishna, Moses, Jesus?

Is that not a rational conclusion to make?

.

Moses was not a savior. Judaism has no saviors. The Messiah to come is not regarded as a savior. Moses was a prophet, considered to be the greatest prophet according to Jewish teaching. He performed miracles but only through the power of G-d. He received the Written Law and the Oral Law from G-d at Mount Sinai. He even argued with G-d, pleading for mercy for his people. But still Moses was a human being. Indeed it was G-d Himself Who led the Hebrew people out of their long captivity as slaves in Egypt, not Moses, not a savior, and not an angel. This is reiterated during the Passover Seder every year.

 

[openmind77]

My apologies, I must have misunderstood when I asked if you could link this in with the passage in the Bhagavad Gita, and you said that they were all Avatars/Saviours.

So why can’t Baha’u’llah be considered a Saviour on par with the Saviours who did not bring a Judgement Day, like Krishna, Moses, Jesus?

Is that not a rational conclusion to make?

.

Give it up Mr Servant. World Saviors are not something that you and I can create by our ‘consideration’ or ‘rational’ conclusion. A World Savior is someone designated and sent by God as One, and not made by human beings.

Bahaullah is not a World Savior anymore than Mirza Ghulam Ahmad or Meher Baba - all of whom were holy men who had similar delusions. Your own delusions will be cleared up soon enough when the real One shows up, so I don’t see any point in arguing until then - so give it a rest. (BTW, of these three, Bahaullah, Ahmad and Meher Baba - Meher Baba was the most knowledgeable about God and spiritual matters, Bahaullah was not even as knowledgable)

 

[Servant19]

Give it up Mr Servant. World Saviors are not something that you and I can create by our ‘consideration’ or ‘rational’ conclusion. A World Savior is someone designated and sent by God as One, and not made by human beings.

Bahaullah is not a World Savior anymore than Mirza Ghulam Ahmad or Meher Baba - all of whom were holy men who had similar delusions. Your own delusions will be cleared up soon enough when the real One shows up, so I don’t see any point in arguing until then - so give it a rest. (BTW, of these three, Bahaullah, Ahmad and Meher Baba - Meher Baba was the most knowledgeable about God and spiritual matters, Bahaullah was not even as knowledgable)

OK!

hehehe, I apologize for tiring you, I will give it and you a rest…

Thanks for the convincing reasoning to give up on Baha’u’llah
(I was hoping you can give one good reason to doubt Baha’u’llah, I will continue to wait)

(also for someone who didn’t know the most basic teaching of non-finality in the Baha’i Faith, you seem to ‘claim’ to know enough to proclaim that Baha’u’llah knows little about God. Can you tell us what Baha’u’llah says about God at all?)

.

 

[Servant19]

Moses was not a savior. Judaism has no saviors. The Messiah to come is not regarded as a savior. Moses was a prophet, considered to be the greatest prophet according to Jewish teaching. He performed miracles but only through the power of G-d. He received the Written Law and the Oral Law from G-d at Mount Sinai. He even argued with G-d, pleading for mercy for his people. But still Moses was a human being. Indeed it was G-d Himself Who led the Hebrew people out of their long captivity as slaves in Egypt, not Moses, not a savior, and not an angel. This is reiterated during the Passover Seder every year.

Hello meltzerboy, thank you and I am familiar with what you say, I only included Moses as Saviour because I assumed open mind would consider it as such. Maybe he considers Moses on the same level as Baha’u’llah, but probably not since Moses is more well known

.

 

[openmind77]

Moses was not a savior. Judaism has no saviors. The Messiah to come is not regarded as a savior. Moses was a prophet, considered to be the greatest prophet according to Jewish teaching. He performed miracles but only through the power of G-d. He received the Written Law and the Oral Law from G-d at Mount Sinai. He even argued with G-d, pleading for mercy for his people. But still Moses was a human being. Indeed it was G-d Himself Who led the Hebrew people out of their long captivity as slaves in Egypt, not Moses, not a savior, and not an angel. This is reiterated during the Passover Seder every year.

I believe the word ‘Messiah’ itself means Savior or Deliverer, but I may be wrong.