End Times Speculation the alternate approach

[Servant19]

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Quacked? Tony?

LOL

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[jeffrey_erwin]

I totally agree with this. God is Merciful and Loving. There is absolutely no way He is going to allow wide spread destruction or ‘end of the world’. Jesus never said or even implied something like this. The prophecies in the OT were all related to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 66:10-16 is not about the destruction of Jerusalem, but about a world-wide judgment:
Rejoice,Jerusalem,
be glad for her, all you who love her!
…
To His servants YHWH will reveal His hand,
but to His enemies His fury.
…
For by fire will YHWH execute judgment,
and by His sword against all mankind.
The victims of YHWH will be many.

While it is true the Jeremiah foretold the capture of Jerusalem, his prophecies seem to have a world wide relevance.
Furthermore, prophecy can be relevant to more than just one age or setting.
Jeremiah 25:29-33

“…I will next summon a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth—it is YHWH Sabaoth who speaks.”…
For YHWH is indicting the nations,
arraigning all flesh for judgment…
See! The disaster spreads
from nation to nation,
a mighty tempest rises
from the far ends of the world.
Those slaughtered by YHWH that day will be scattered across the world from end to end. No dirge will be raised for them; no one will gather them or bury them; the will stay lying on the surface like dung.

These terrible prophecies by Isaiah and Jeremiah have yet to be fulfilled. They should not be ignored or dismissed.
With all due respect, Openmind, the idea that Jesus never spoke of a world-wide disaster is not correct:

Matthew 24:21-22 , 38-39
For then there will be great distress such as, until now, since the world began, there never has been, nor ever will be again.
And if that time had not been shortened, no one would have survived. . .
As it was in Noah’s day, so it will be when the Son of Man comes. For in those days before the Flood people were eating, drinking, taking wives, taking husbands, right up to the day Noah went into the Ark, and they suspected nothing till the Flood came and swept all away.
Luke 12:24
I have come to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were blazing already!

 

[openmind77]

The motto of the Prophecy of the Popes for Benedict XV is:
“Religio depopulata.”

In 1880 Fr. M.J. O’Brien wrote: “Troubled times are foretold by this. The blood of the martyrs shall flow.”
Pope Benedict XV reigned from 1914 to 1921, the very years of the bloodiest war up until that time.

The final lines of motto number 113 for the next and final Pope would seem to indicate that they apply to more than just the Church:

“…the city of the seven hills will be destroyed, & the terrible Judge will judge his people. The End.”

There may be some truth to the ‘Prophecy of the Popes’, but this prophecy is for the Church it does not affect the rest of world that much. The 113th may be the last Pope, but that only means that Jesus will be leading Church himself after that, it does not signify any catastrophe. Judgment will take place as Jesus has predicted but that is terrible only for those who ignore Matthew 25:35-40. ‘Religio depopulata’ is long past (WW I). The Church will go through a trial (that has been predicted by the Church itself), but that does not affect the rest of the world (‘the city of the seven hills’ is not the whole world).

The Return of Jesus and before that the Return of the Mahdi will be a joyous event. There will be conflicts that precede that event (which are ongoing) and there will be more conflicts immediately after each Return, but nothing catastrophic, definitely not the ‘End of the World’, just the end of an era.

 

[The_Old_Maid]

when it comes to speaking about the timing of the end of the world, i prefer to rely on Jesus, Who said, only the Father knows the time.

the rest of the yahoos out there preaching about this century being the end time are no more authoritative than any of the previous hundreds or thousands of people who have done the same thing over the past 1950 years.

no one knows.

You’d be surprised how many people would try to wiggle out of it by saying, “Just because we don’t know the day doesn’t mean we can’t know the month or year.”

However, that doesn’t necessarily make someone who believes in date-setting a “yahoo.” It is possible to be passionate and sincere and yet be sincerely wrong. Maybe they were taught by someone they trusted and that passionate and sincere person got it wrong.

Here’s a lovely letter to those who have been led along by date-setters.

 

[Techno2000]

You’d be surprised how many people would try to wiggle out of it by saying, “Just because we don’t know the day doesn’t mean we can’t know the month or year.”

However, that doesn’t necessarily make someone who believes in date-setting a “yahoo.” It is possible to be passionate and sincere and yet be sincerely wrong. Maybe they were taught by someone they trusted and that passionate and sincere person got it wrong.

Here’s a lovely letter to those who have been led along by date-setters.

Right, and Jesus does tell us to look for the “Signs” so we won’t get caught off guard.

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

You’d be surprised how many people would try to wiggle out of it by saying, “Just because we don’t know the day doesn’t mean we can’t know the month or year.”

Matthew 24:32-33
“Take the fig tree as a parable: as soon as its twigs grow supple and its leave come out, you know that summer is near.
So with you when you see all these things; know that He is near, at the very gates.”

I base my idea of a global nuclear war happening in the 21st century on the conjunction of the vision of Pope St.Pius X with Fr. Wion’s motto number 112 for Pope Francis.
If that terrible vision does not happen within the lifetime of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI (and God forbid that it should) then I will be proven wrong.

 

[openmind77]

Isaiah 66:10-16 is not about the destruction of Jerusalem, but about a world-wide judgment:
…
Jeremiah 25:29-33
…
These terrible prophecies by Isaiah and Jeremiah have yet to be fulfilled. They should not be ignored or dismissed.

I still believe most of the OT prophecies are relevant only for the time before Jesus was born. Otherwise Jesus himself would have elaborated on them. They are relevant mostly to Israel and Judaism.
jeffrey erwin;13679016:

With all due respect, Openmind, the idea that Jesus never spoke of a world-wide disaster is not correct:

Matthew 24:21-22 , 38-39
For then there will be great distress such as, until now, since the world began, there never has been, nor ever will be again.
And if that time had not been shortened, no one would have survived. . .
As it was in Noah’s day, so it will be when the Son of Man comes. For in those days before the Flood people were eating, drinking, taking wives, taking husbands, right up to the day Noah went into the Ark, and they suspected nothing till the Flood came and swept all away.
Luke 12:24
I have come to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were blazing already!

Of course there will be distress and tribulation (that is what is happening in Syria). But that ‘time has been shortened’. The conflicts exist and more may occur, but no world-wide devastation. The fire the Christ brings is the division between goats and sheep - they will fight with each other, this division ultimately has to be resolved, but there will be no mass extinction.

The Church will have its trial as is predicted in the Catechism, but it will survive just fine and so will the rest of us. It is the Return of the Mahdi, which will be resisted by many merely because he is a muslim, that will cause most of the conflict. By the time Jesus arrives that conflict will have died down and the Church will have recovered and we will all have awakened to a new world.

 

[TonyBS]

…

Quacked? Tony?

LOL

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Darn phone auto word spell, then time limit to edit Good to Leave it, as basically lately it is just like we are a lot of Ducks quacking at each other

But it should be Quake

Regards Tony

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

There may be some truth to the ‘Prophecy of the Popes’, but (‘the city of the seven hills’ is not the whole world).

That’s an interesting observation. Thoughout his list of mottos Fr. Wion tried to compact his lines with abbreviations.
For him to replace “Rome” with “civitas septicollis” does not make sense in that regard.
Think about this: the earth is one “city” in the galaxy and it has seven continents.

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

I still believe most of the OT prophecies are relevant only for the time before Jesus was born. Otherwise Jesus himself would have elaborated on them. They are relevant mostly to Israel and Judaism.

Of course there will be distress and tribulation (that is what is happening in Syria). But that ‘time has been shortened’. The conflicts exist and more may occur, but no world-wide devastation. The fire the Christ brings is the division between goats and sheep - they will fight with each other, this division ultimately has to be resolved, but there will be no mass extinction.

The Church will have its trial as is predicted in the Catechism, but it will survive just fine and so will the rest of us. It is the Return of the Mahdi, which will be resisted by many merely because he is a muslim, that will cause most of the conflict. By the time Jesus arrives that conflict will have died down and the Church will have recovered and we will all have awakened to a new world.

I hope that you are right.

 

[TonyBS]

You’d be surprised how many people would try to wiggle out of it by saying, “Just because we don’t know the day doesn’t mean we can’t know the month or year.”

However, that doesn’t necessarily make someone who believes in date-setting a “yahoo.” It is possible to be passionate and sincere and yet be sincerely wrong. Maybe they were taught by someone they trusted and that passionate and sincere person got it wrong.

Here’s a lovely letter to those who have been led along by date-setters.

Even though some very special souls had got the time actually down very close, they still did not know the exact time and day, and in fact did not know what they were looking for.

Notice it says only the Father Knows.

The times are more than obvious and It is the Father that has told us, a good authority I would say

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

I hope that you are right.

He is mostly, but still yet to see it happened.

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

I still believe most of the OT prophecies are relevant only for the time before Jesus was born. Otherwise Jesus himself would have elaborated on them. They are relevant mostly to Israel and Judaism.

IMHO That is why Revelation is important, it ties it all back into Daniel and Old Testament Prophesy.

Regards Tony

 

[worldcitizen]

David, we could say the same about Jesus and his Covenant using that criteria.

We currently have the infallible guidance of the Universal House of Justice. Abdul-Baha , in His Will and Testament referring to both Shoghi Effendi wrote this:

Whatsoever they decide is of God. Whoso obeyeth him not, neither obeyeth them, hath not obeyed God; whoso rebelleth against him and against them hath rebelled against God; whoso opposeth him hath opposed God; whoso contendeth with them hath contended with God; whoso disputeth with him hath disputed with God; whoso denieth him hath denied God; whoso disbelieveth in him hath disbelieved in God; whoso deviateth, separateth himself and turneth aside from him hath in truth deviated, separated himself and turned aside from God. May the wrath, the fierce indignation, the vengeance of God rest upon him!

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

We currently have the infallible guidance of the Universal House of Justice.

But then we have this from Baha’u’llah himself:

“The Rising place of Command has no partner in the Very Great Preservation from Error. …God has reserved this Station exclusively for Himself.
And a portion in this Great and Unapproachable Dignity has not been destined for anyone else.”

 

[TonyBS]

But then we have this from Baha’u’llah himself:

“The Rising place of Command has no partner in the Very Great Preservation from Error. …God has reserved this Station exclusively for Himself.
And a portion in this Great and Unapproachable Dignity has not been destined for anyone else.”

Jeffery - You need to use Authorized Translations of Baha’ullah’s Words, the one you are using is not and from what I can find was translated by Earl E. Elder translation in1961 - bahai-library.com/provisionals/aqdas/aqdas046-048.html

This is the link to Authorized Texts - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KA/ka-5.html

“He Who is the Dawning-place of God’s Cause hath no partner in the Most Great Infallibility. He it is Who, in the kingdom of creation, is the Manifestation of “He doeth whatsoever He willeth”. God hath reserved this distinction unto His own Self, and ordained for none a share in so sublime and transcendent a station”.

Thus it is talking about the Station of a Messenger and the Most Great Infallibility.

Baha’u’llah is not talking about the Infallibility He is passing on in other Writings.

Regards Tony

 

[worldcitizen]

But then we have this from Baha’u’llah himself:

“The Rising place of Command has no partner in the Very Great Preservation from Error. …God has reserved this Station exclusively for Himself.
And a portion in this Great and Unapproachable Dignity has not been destined for anyone else.”

Baha’u’llah was endowed with ‘essential infallibility’ and Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the House of Justice ‘acquired infallibility’.

You can read in depth here. What you say is correct. However there is conferred infallibility which a Manifestation of God may invest whomever He wishes. But it is restricted and limited in scope and jurisdiction.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-45.html

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

But then we have this from Baha’u’llah himself:

“The Rising place of Command has no partner in the Very Great Preservation from Error. …God has reserved this Station exclusively for Himself.
And a portion in this Great and Unapproachable Dignity has not been destined for anyone else.”

And that is prefaced by:

“Whoever interprets what has been sent from the heaven of Revelation by taking away from it the evident meaning is one of those
who have tampered with the highest Word of God and have suffered loss according to the Perspicuous Book.”

 

[Servant19]

And that is prefaced by:

“Whoever interprets what has been sent from the heaven of Revelation by taking away from it the evident meaning is one of those
who have tampered with the highest Word of God and have suffered loss according to the Perspicuous Book.”

So please show us where the evident meaning of a passage revealed by Baha’u’llah has been taken away by Abdu’l-Baha, the Guardian or the Universal House of Justice, please Jeffrey

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[TonyBS]

I don’t know what you mean they denied Muhammad. Muhammad has been accepted by over a billion people. That is a pretty good indication that he has been a successful Messenger of God

It is the Bab and Bahaullah who have not been accepted by that many - and billions of people are not fools to reject a ‘true’ Messenger of God.

Not that I am implying that Bahaullah is a ‘false’ religious leader in any way, he is just not prominent enough to have a world-wide impact. he is a minor ‘Messenger’ of God - just like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad or Meher Baba.

Bumped over from the Jesus Krishna thread, as off topic.

David was talking about The people of the time of the message and the few hundred years after before a Religion reaches its critical mass and explodes into acceptance.

The Number of Baha’is is amazing given it is only 172 years from its start. Now if you say it is because of modern communications and abilities, then it is just another proof of the promised times.

Openmind77, every time you say we need to see this or that, I just want to say you have just Described what has happened.

Also consider William Miller was so sure he had got Biblical Prophecy correct.

Really can not say much more, it is your heart and we will pray for each other dear friend in God. May we all come through this time with harmony of purpose.

Regards Tony