Ending death penalty could save US millions: study

[dudleysharp]

I’m having a hard time coming up with instances where He picked up the first stone…

ROMANS 6:23 God gave all of us the death penalty for the commission of sin.

1. God, through the power and justice of the Holy Spirit, executed both Ananias and his wife, Saphira. Their crime? Lying to the Holy Spirit - to God - through Peter. Acts 5:1-11. By executing two such devoted Christians for lying to Him, does the Holy Spirit show confirmation of His support for His divinely instituted civil punishment of execution for premeditated murder or does it show His rejection of capital punishment? And read all of Revelation.
2. Jesus “You have heard the ancients were told, ˜YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER” and “Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court”. But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, “Raca”, shall be guilty before the supreme court and whoever shall say, “You fool”, shall be guilty enough to go into fiery hell." Jesus, Matthew 5:17-22. Should any explanation be necessary, Jesus is saying that even as execution is the required punishment for murderers, as per the Old Testament, He tells us that those who speak ill of others and have hatred in their heart shall suffer in hell. Not only does Jesus never speak out against the civil authorities just use of execution for murder, He prescribes a much more serious, eternal punishment for those who hate and speak ill of others. And what price does God exact for any and all sin? Death. (Romans 5:12-14)
3. Pontius Pilate said to Jesus, “You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?” Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above.”(John 19:10-11). "Jesus reminds Pilate that the implementation of the death penalty is a divinely entrusted responsibility that is to be justly implemented. Prof. Carl F.H. Henry, 45th Annual N.A.E. Convention, “Capital Punishment and The Bible”. Jesus confirms that the civil authority has the lawful right to execute Jesus, and others, and that this right has been given to that authority by God.
4. " . . . pronouncements about divine behavior (in the Hebrew Bible) correlated in the judicial context to attitudes toward death as a proper punishment. Quite clearly, the New Testament carries on the earlier mentality." As Jesus described in the Sermon on the Mount, “Obedience will be rewarded with life; disobedience will be punished with destruction. A God who rewards with life and punishes with death is One whose laws provide for death as a judicial punishment.” Dr. Baruch Levine, “Capital Punishment,”

Jesus ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, LET HIM BE PUT TO DEATH’ (Matthew 15:1-9).

1. “Turning to Christian tradition, we may note that the Fathers and Doctors of the Church are virtually unanimous in their support for capital punishment, even though some of them such as St. Ambrose exhort members of the clergy not to pronounce capital sentences or serve as executioners.”

"The Roman Catechism, issued in 1566, three years after the end of the Council of Trent, taught that the power of life and death had been entrusted by God to civil authorities and that the use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to the fifth commandment. "

“Summarizing the verdict of Scripture and tradition, we can glean some settled points of doctrine. It is agreed that crime deserves punishment in this life and not only in the next. In addition, it is agreed that the State has authority to administer appropriate punishment to those judged guilty of crimes and that this punishment may, in serious cases, include the sentence of death.”

"The Catholic magisterium does not, and never has, advocated unqualified abolition of the death penalty. I know of no official statement from popes or bishops, whether in the past or in the present, that denies the right of the State to execute offenders at least in certain extreme cases. The United States bishops, in their majority statement on capital punishment, conceded that Catholic teaching has accepted the principle that the state has the right to take the life of a person guilty of an extremely serious crime. Cardinal Bernardin, in his famous speech on the Consistent Ethic of Life here at Fordham in 1983, stated his concurrence with the classical position that the State has the right to inflict capital punishment.

"Pope John Paul II spoke for the whole Catholic tradition when he proclaimed, in Evangelium Vitae, that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral (EV 57). But he wisely included in that statement the word innocent. He has never said that every criminal has a right to live nor has he denied that the State has the right in some cases to execute the guilty. "

“The Death Penalty: A Right to Life Issue?” Cardinal Dulles
pewforum.org/deathpenalty/resources/reader/17.php3

 

[Ender]

1. And how do you define “justice?” An eye for an eye?

I have no definition of justice; I use the one the Church provides.
- "Hence the act of justice in relation to its proper matter and object is indicated in the words, “Rendering to each one his right,” (Aquinas ST II/II 58,1) *

• “Now, retribution according to justice is rendered to a man, by reason of his having done something to another’s advantage or hurt.”* (Ibid I/II 21,3)

The purpose of Justice is restorative.

Yes and no. The primary purpose is to “redress the disorder caused by the sin”; that is, retribution. This is what restores the disturbed order.

A Father’s punishment has the PRIMARY purpose of instructing the misbehaving child, not to inflict commensurate damage on the child.

The Church recognizes four objectives of punishment, one of which is rehabilitation, but the primary objective is justice; rehabilitation is a secondary objective.*

• God does not delight in punishments for their own sake; but He does delight in the order of His justice, which requires them. (Ibid I/II 87,3)
• Punishment is proportionate to sin* (Ibid 87,4)*
• Therefore a man is punished by God even after his sin is forgiven: and so the debt of punishment remains, when the sin has been removed. *(Ibid 87,6)
  - the act of sin makes man deserving of punishment, in so far as he transgresses the order of Divine justice, to which he cannot return except he pay some sort of penal compensation, which restores him to the equality of justice (Ibid)

I would suggest that your idea of justice is more rooted in John Calvin than Jesus Christ.

Your position would be stronger if you could refer to something the Church actually taught. For every claim I make I cite the Church source on which it is based; you have provided nothing but your personal interpretation.

Historic catholic teaching on the death penalty is silent on the matter because society and technology simply had not presented the issue yet.

If you accept that the Church has been silent on the issue then you have to agree with my charge that the first paragraph in 2267 makes a claim that is not true.

Ender

 

[camerong]

Let me add another point that has not yet been raised, as I have read–the justice system, juries especially, are incapable of determining guilt and justice with the exactitude that the death penalty requires. All lawyers have heard of juries that have unquestionably reached the wrong result on small crimes or personal injury cases. The precision does not increase merely because the stakes do. Eyewitness testimony is still horrendously inaccurate. Voir dire, despite Batson challenges, still stacks juries trying black men with white people. And white juries convict black men far, far more than racially-mixed juries.

Consider further that many people who were later exonerated by conclusive DNA evidence gave confessions–police are very effective at extracting confessions.

If we were always sure the person did it, that would be one thing, but many people have been executed when we were only mostly sure. And many more have been wrongfully executed. All to prevent, what–the slight risk the person serving life without parole will escape? A deterrent effect that is anything but conclusive? Some vague concept of justice which is dished out by humans, who, no matter how well-intentioned, probably have a poor concept of it themselves?

Justice is an important goal, no doubt. But when the stakes are that high, no part of the system–our lawmakers, our juries, our judges, or our executioners–are capable of doing justice.

 

[dudleysharp]

the justice system, juries especially, are incapable of determining guilt and justice with the exactitude that the death penalty requires.

snip

If we were always sure the person did it, that would be one thing, but many people have been executed when we were only mostly sure. And many more have been wrongfully executed.

snip

You need to look at the facts, not the fiction. Start here.

“The Death Penalty: More Protection for Innocents”
homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/05/the-death-penalty-more-protection-for-innocents.aspx

“Deterrence and the Death Penalty: A Reply to Radelet and Lacock”
homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/02/deterrence-and-the-death-penalty-a-reply-to-radelet-and-lacock.aspx

“Death Penalty, Deterrence & Murder Rates: Let’s be clear”
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/03/death-penalty-deterrence-murder-rates.html

16 recent deterrence studies, inclusive of their defenses
cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DPDeterrence.htm

The 130 (now 135) death row “innocents” scam
homicidesurvivors.com/2009/03/04/fact-checking-issues-on-innocence-and-the-death-penalty.aspx

“The Innocent Executed: Deception & Death Penalty Opponents”
homicidesurvivors.com/2009/10/08/the-innocent-executed-deception–death-penalty-opponents–draft.aspx

 

[SFH]

This isn’t news.

The death penalty has never been shown to have a genuine deterrent effect and has always been known to cost more than life imprisonment without parole.

Non-sequitor examples aside, there is simply no good reason for the death penalty - except that “I feel good at the end of Arnie movies when the subhuman bad guy gets blown away.”

It’s time we let go of that last reason and recognize that such portrayal of sinners in movies is not realistic. Murderers may never be trustworthy enough to let out on the street again, but we can contain them reliably and cost-effectively.

Oh please, that is such a bunch of baloney. The only reason it costs so much to execute criminals is because of the ACLU. If each convicted criminal got one appeal, and was executed by hanging there wouldn’t be any cost issue.

And capital punishment has a 100% deterrent effect. There is no recorded instance of an executed criminal ever committing another crime!

 

[Lujack]

Oh please, that is such a bunch of baloney. The only reason it costs so much to execute criminals is because of the ACLU. If each convicted criminal got one appeal, and was executed by hanging there wouldn’t be any cost issue.

Actually, we can save money another way: When the police pick up a suspect, they can take a vote at the station whether or not he’s guilty or innocent. If they think he’s guilty, take him out back, shoot him, and toss his body in a dumpster.

Oh, wait, we don’t do that because when we go to execute somebody we want to make absolutely sure that we’re executing the right guy. Even with multiple appeals, we get it wrong.

Hanging, I actually agree with you on, as long as it is the modern kind that breaks the neck, and it is done in private. It would actually be far more humane than the current system of lethal injection, which likely involves horrific suffering for the accused; we just can’t tell because the first drug is a paralytic.

And capital punishment has a 100% deterrent effect. There is no recorded instance of an executed criminal ever committing another crime!

That’s not what a deterrent means in this context. The deterrent argument is that the death penalty deters other people from committing crimes, because they fear they’ll be executed. Except on simple psychology, that doesn’t work; people who commit crimes don’t think they’ll get caught at all. I’m sure that will come back with an argument that life in jail is a joke, but it isn’t like if you asked somebody off the street: “How’d you like to spend 18 years in jail?” they’d say that it was no big deal.

 

[camerong]

You need to look at the facts, not the fiction. Start here.

“The Death Penalty: More Protection for Innocents”
homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/05/the-death-penalty-more-protection-for-innocents.aspx
. . . .

When you wish to actually discuss something, instead of merely post a bunch of links without any argument, let me know. And please learn some decorum, don’t tell me that I “need” to look at the facts, just tell me why they are wrong. Attack my arguments, not me.

Oh please, that is such a bunch of baloney. The only reason it costs so much to execute criminals is because of the ACLU. If each convicted criminal got one appeal, and was executed by hanging there wouldn’t be any cost issue.

And capital punishment has a 100% deterrent effect. There is no recorded instance of an executed criminal ever committing another crime!

You could not be more wrong with your first statement. Death penalty cases cost so much more because there is an entirely separate, second phase of the trial solely over the issue of aggravating and mitigating circumstances. Even pro-death penalty prosecutors recognize the necessity for doing it this way, but even if they didn’t, that is what is required by our U.S. Constitution, as decided by several sets of Supreme Courts, some of them overwhelmingly conservative.

 

[stanmaxkolbe]

Amen! and I think the death penalty should be expanded to include rapists and sex offenders.sight.

I disagree with you how many men have been put in prison for rape because of some ticked off girlfriend.

I knew an NCO in the army that almost lost his military career because his sixteen year old stepdaughter said he molested her. Come to find out she was mad at him because he would not buy her a car.

 

[stanmaxkolbe]

There is no doubt in my mind that innocent people have been executed in the United States because they could not afford a good legal team; come on OJ walked.

However:

As I said I don’t like the death penalty but until the State guarantees to lock up these murderers for the rest of their lives and never get out and harm anyone again then get rid of capital punishment.

No State has done this so we still need capital punishment.