Engaged couple, one having AIDS

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You made an ad hominem character attack, but did not cite a single source from medical literature indicating that HIV had been isolated or that Western blot or ELISA tests that supposedly identify the presence of antibodies exclusive to HIV are reliable for this purpose, using as a gold standard of reliability isolates of the HIV virus.

Millions (billions?) of dollars have been spent in research relating to HIV and AIDS, so the above documentation should be readily available if conventional thinking on HIV and AIDS had been proven through repeated experiments to be true.
I made no ad hominem attack. (An ad hominem attack would be, for instance, to call you crazy, which I did not do. I merely pointed out the other ideas that many of those who subscribe and promote utterly baseless idea that HIV does not exist or that it is unrelated to AIDS.

Do you also need a link that proves the Moon is not made of cheese. Please.

Your assertions have neither proof nor merit. They are, however, both off topic and extraordinarily dangerous.

You made the assertion, you prove your assertion. It is not up to us to prove you wrong. It is up to you to back up your assertion. But do it on a different because that is off topic for this thread.
 
As said before, HIV virus is in fact smaller than the condomn’s voids, **but ** the virus, being a virus, always comes in an cell. So the set (virus + cell) becomes bigger than the voids.
 
The Church has not officially spoken on the use of Condoms as a PPD in a marriage, only as a contraceptive. It would be a double effect and in a moral gray area. Some bishops have promoted the idea, others dislike the idea.

Above all, TALK TO A PREIST.
 
Okay, this really addresses my question. Basically, the male should remain single for the rest of his life, because he should not have sex, which would endanger his wife. Since the marital act would not take place, the marriage can not be consummated.

A man in this situation would be distraught by this situation, but we all have our crosses. However difficult, we must never resort to immoral practices such as condoms.

By the way, isn’t it part of the marriage vows that one must be open to children, and therefore, promise to not use artificial contraceptives?
I don’t think the church moral teaching requires that this couple not have sex. In other words the marriage debt would still stand. I know it seems to be the prudent course of action by most standards but I do not see moral theology requiring the abstention. If the non infected spouse wishes to risk it there would be no sin if the couple opted for conjugal relations.
 
My wife was diagnosed as HIV positive, and she let me know of this diagnosis prior to our marriage by inviting her to meet her physician, who told me about it with her present. Initially I presumed the diagnosis to be reliable, but also believed God had guided the two of us to be together, and so we proceeded with marriage, trusting God for the future. Physicians advised us to use condoms. Later, my understanding of both the reliability of the HIV diagnosis and the related assumption that those who are HIV+ will likely die of AIDS changed, and since then we have not used condoms. My wife has never taken any HIV-related drugs (which are extremely dangerous: check out the Web pages of HIV drug manufacturers for lists of side effects), and remains free of any symptoms. At a time when I thought HIV antibody tests were reliable, I took one of these tests (after we’d been married for some time) and was diagnosed HIV negative. That was a few years ago. I do not regard these tests as having any proven worth, and see no point in taking one again.
 
The Church has not officially spoken on the use of Condoms as a PPD in a marriage, only as a contraceptive. It would be a double effect and in a moral gray area. Some bishops have promoted the idea, others dislike the idea.

Above all, TALK TO A PREIST.
This is incorrect, despite the words of dissenting bishops.
 
My wife was diagnosed as HIV positive, and she let me know of this diagnosis prior to our marriage by inviting her to meet her physician, who told me about it with her present. Initially I presumed the diagnosis to be reliable, but also believed God had guided the two of us to be together, and so we proceeded with marriage, trusting God for the future. Physicians advised us to use condoms. Later, my understanding of both the reliability of the HIV diagnosis and the related assumption that those who are HIV+ will likely die of AIDS changed, and since then we have not used condoms. My wife has never taken any HIV-related drugs (which are extremely dangerous: check out the Web pages of HIV drug manufacturers for lists of side effects), and remains free of any symptoms. At a time when I thought HIV antibody tests were reliable, I took one of these tests (after we’d been married for some time) and was diagnosed HIV negative. That was a few years ago. I do not regard these tests as having any proven worth, and see no point in taking one again.
I will keep you both in my offerings and thoughts. Keep the light.
 
I have seen the article before and agree with it. But its still not addressing the issue of the OPs situation.
Do you understand that each marital act must be procreative and unitive? Condomistic sex can never be either. The only acceptable use for a condom in a marital act is a perforated one for sperm collection to do a test. That’s it.
 
Do you understand that each marital act must be procreative and unitive? Condomistic sex can never be either. The only acceptable use for a condom in a marital act is a perforated one for sperm collection to do a test. That’s it.
Again, show me a definite margisterium conclusion on this precise issue. Many moral theologians are for or against this double effect.

Also the procreative part is subjective, otherwise the Church would make fertility to be mandetory before marriage blessings are givin. All the Church demands in that manner is that the couple can actually have intercourse, fertility has nothing to do with the requirements for the sacrament.
 
Again, show me a definite margisterium conclusion on this precise issue. Many moral theologians are for or against this double effect.

Also the procreative part is subjective, otherwise the Church would make fertility to be mandetory before marriage blessings are givin. All the Church demands in that manner is that the couple can actually have intercourse, fertility has nothing to do with the requirements for the sacrament.
:rolleyes:

The truth has been stated on this thread and on numerous other threads. You simply reject the constant and unchanging teaching of the Church. while you try to claim otherwise, it appears you are trying to do little more than deceiving yourself.
 
What did Cardinal Newman teach regarding choosing conscience before the Pope? What did Vatican II teach regarding the priority of conscience? In the hypothetical case that using condoms would save lives (which I don’t believe), should not there be room for conscience when applying the imperative taught by the Catholic church to save and protect sacred human life, created in the divine image?
 
What did Cardinal Newman teach regarding choosing conscience before the Pope? What did Vatican II teach regarding the priority of conscience? In the hypothetical case that using condoms would save lives (which I don’t believe), should not there be room for conscience when applying the imperative taught by the Catholic church to save and protect sacred human life, created in the divine image?
What did those two teach that you cite? They both taught a person’s well-formed conscience is used to help guide decisions. However, a well-formed conscience, by definition would never lead a person to defy the Pope or do anything contrary to Church teaching. The conscience is not supreme, but must be in conformity to the Church.

Thus a properly formed conscience would never lead a person to think that condom use is ever permissible.
 
Here is an excerpt from Cardinal Newman’s remarks “On Conscience” at newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section5.html

QUOTE BEGINS:
I have already quoted the words which Cardinal Gousset has adduced from the Fourth Lateran; that “He who acts against his conscience loses his soul.” This dictum is brought out with singular fulness and force in the moral treatises of theologians. The celebrated school, known as the Salmanticenses, or Carmelites of Salamanca, lays down the broad proposition, that conscience is ever to be obeyed whether it tells truly or erroneously, and that, whether the error is the fault of the person thus erring or not [Note]. They say that this opinion is certain, and refer, as agreeing with them, to St. Thomas, St. Bonaventura, Caietan, Vasquez, Durandus, Navarrus, Corduba, Layman, Escobar, and fourteen others. Two of them even say this opinion is de fide. Of course, if a man is culpable in being in error, which he might have escaped, had he been more in earnest, for that error he is answerable to God, but still he must act according to that error, while he is in it, because he in full sincerity thinks the error to be truth. {260}

Thus, if the Pope told the English Bishops to order their priests to stir themselves energetically in favour of teetotalism, and a particular priest was fully persuaded that abstinence from wine, &c., was practically a Gnostic error, and therefore felt he could not so exert himself without sin; or suppose there was a Papal order to hold lotteries in each mission for some religious object, and a priest could say in God’s sight that he believed lotteries to be morally wrong, that priest in either of these cases would commit a sin hic et nunc if he obeyed the Pope, whether he was right or wrong in his opinion, and, if wrong, although he had not taken proper pains to get at the truth of the matter.



Antonio Corduba, a Spanish Franciscan, states the doctrine with still more point, because he makes mention of Superiors. “In no manner is it lawful to act against conscience, even though a Law, or a Superior commands it.”—De Conscient., p. 138.

And the French Dominican, Natalis Alexander:—“If, in the judgment of conscience, through a mistaken conscience, a man is persuaded that what his Superior {261} commands is displeasing to God, he is bound not to obey.”—Theol. t. 2, p. 32.

The word “Superior” certainly includes the Pope; Cardinal Jacobatius brings out this point clearly in his authoritative work on Councils, which is contained in Labbe’s Collection, introducing the Pope by name:—“If it were doubtful,” he says, “whether a precept [of the Pope] be a sin or not, we must determine thus:—that, if he to whom the precept is addressed has a conscientious sense that it is a sin and injustice, first it is duty to put off that sense; but, if he cannot, nor conform himself to the judgment of the Pope, in that case it is his duty to follow his own private conscience, and patiently to bear it, if the Pope punishes him.”—lib. iv. p. 241.

Would it not be well for Mr. Gladstone to bring passages from our recognized authors as confirmatory of his view of our teaching, as those which I have quoted are destructive of it? and they must be passages declaring, not only that the Pope is ever to be obeyed, but that there are no exceptions to the rule, for exceptions there must be in all concrete matters.

I add one remark. Certainly, if I am obliged to bring religion into after-dinner toasts, (which indeed does not seem quite the thing) I shall drink—to the Pope, if you please,—still, to Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.

QUOTE ENDS

As you can see, Newman allowed that under some circumstances it is imperative that people should obey their conscience before obeying the Pope. He believed that if the Pope ordered a priest to advocate in favor of teetotalism or the holding of lotteries, yet could not obey the papal instruction without doing what he regarded as morally wrong, then that priest should not so obey. Having said that, he respected the authority of the Pope as a “teacher of the moral law,” so much so that Newman could also say of the Pope, “The championship of the Moral Law and of conscience is his raison d’être.”

Newman’s argument is thus in favor of both the Pope and liberty of conscience.

In Catholic just war theory, the killing of noncombatants is prohibited, except when such occur as collateral damage to an otherwise just act of war. Could the use of condoms be allowed among married couples if their principle purpose were intended as an act of justice consistent with the sanctity of human life, with any interference with the unitive and procreative aspects of marriage not intended but regarded as collateral damage? That is, if collateral damage that involves the killing of lives is sometimes allowed, why not allow collateral damage involving the saving of lives (if indeed condoms could have this effect, which I doubt)? Would not some room for conscience in this regard be consistent with Newman’s argument?
 
Again, show me a definite margisterium conclusion on this precise issue. Many moral theologians are for or against this double effect.

Also the procreative part is subjective, otherwise the Church would make fertility to be mandetory before marriage blessings are givin. All the Church demands in that manner is that the couple can actually have intercourse, fertility has nothing to do with the requirements for the sacrament.
Fertility has nothing to do with the requirements for the sacrament but the ability to perform the act in the procreative way is required. There is a theological and spiritual meaning to the marital act. The act itself must retain both the procreative and unitive aspects and meaning. The husband must finish inside his wife for the act to be conjugal in meaning. The couple must form the one flesh union for it to retain it’s conjugal meaning. Condoms prevent this.They are a barrier to the one flesh union. Condomistic sex is immoral because it affects both the procreative meaning and the unitive meaning.
William May explains well-

fatherjoe.wordpress.com/2006/05/12/condoms-intercourse-aids-among-infertile-couples/

If you haven’t studied Theology of the Body you might find it helps your understanding in this. You might want to look at a Christopher West study on it. You will want to look at how marriage and the marriage act are a reflection of the Eucharist.
 
Is all foreplay immoral if it doesn’t result in sexual consummation? While marital relations that bring together the unitive and procreative aspects of sexual acts are surely ideal and consistent with how our bodies are designed, does it necessarily follow that all non-reproductive acts of sexual intimacy are wicked? Something can be less than the ideal without being immoral and perverse. For example, it’s healthier to eat raw vegetables than cooked vegetables, because cooking the vegetables kills the enzymes, so one could arguably say that cooking vegetables is less than the ideal, but that doesn’t mean it’s immoral and perverse to eat a baked potato.
 
Is all foreplay immoral if it doesn’t result in sexual consummation? While marital relations that bring together the unitive and procreative aspects of sexual acts are surely ideal and consistent with how our bodies are designed, does it necessarily follow that all non-reproductive acts of sexual intimacy are wicked? Something can be less than the ideal without being immoral and perverse. For example, it’s healthier to eat raw vegetables than cooked vegetables, because cooking the vegetables kills the enzymes, so one could arguably say that cooking vegetables is less than the ideal, but that doesn’t mean it’s immoral and perverse to eat a baked potato.
Off topic.
 
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