Engaged couple, one having AIDS

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Seatuck wrote, “Condomistic sex is immoral because it affects both the procreative meaning and the unitive meaning.” I agree that condomistic sex is less than the ideal, and that the ideal sexual act expresses both the procreative and unitive meanings of sexuality. But it does not follow that sexual activities that are less than the ideal are necessarily immoral. This is a strong word to use, especially as the argument is apparently being presented that it is under all circumstances sexual relations between married couples that involve the use of condoms are intrinsically immoral, without any exceptions, even though other acts involving sexual intimacy or food that are less than the ideal are presumably not regarded as immoral under all circumstances without any exceptions.
 
Seatuck wrote, “Condomistic sex is immoral because it affects both the procreative meaning and the unitive meaning.” I agree that condomistic sex is less than the ideal, and that the ideal sexual act expresses both the procreative and unitive meanings of sexuality. But it does not follow that sexual activities that are less than the ideal are necessarily immoral. This is a strong word to use, especially as the argument is apparently being presented that it is under all circumstances sexual relations between married couples that involve the use of condoms are intrinsically immoral, without any exceptions, even though other acts involving sexual intimacy or food that are less than the ideal are presumably not regarded as immoral under all circumstances without any exceptions.
Any act of sexual intimacy is immoral without exception when it damages the procreative and unitive meaning of the conjugal act. Truth is truth it is not relative. No exception.
 
Let’s say we have an engaged couple. The male is HIV positive, the female is not. Condoms are not permissible for any reason. The Church calls those with AIDS to abstain (which I agree with).

Is this couple to abstain from sexual intercourse? How does this couple make the marriage indissoluble if they cannot perform the marital act?
In my opinion, this couple should not marry.
Marital relations and the procreation of children are a cornerstone of the marital relationship.
If the couple knows in advance that they cannot have marital relations and cannot procreate children, they generally should not marry.
 
:rolleyes:

The truth has been stated on this thread and on numerous other threads. You simply reject the constant and unchanging teaching of the Church. while you try to claim otherwise, it appears you are trying to do little more than deceiving yourself.
So a random poster on an internet site is now absolute truth? No, I would rather believe the Church, read actual real articles from the Church, not an opinion.
 
Fertility has nothing to do with the requirements for the sacrament but the ability to perform the act in the procreative way is required. There is a theological and spiritual meaning to the marital act. The act itself must retain both the procreative and unitive aspects and meaning. The husband must finish inside his wife for the act to be conjugal in meaning. The couple must form the one flesh union for it to retain it’s conjugal meaning. Condoms prevent this.They are a barrier to the one flesh union. Condomistic sex is immoral because it affects both the procreative meaning and the unitive meaning.
William May explains well-

fatherjoe.wordpress.com/2006/05/12/condoms-intercourse-aids-among-infertile-couples/

If you haven’t studied Theology of the Body you might find it helps your understanding in this. You might want to look at a Christopher West study on it. You will want to look at how marriage and the marriage act are a reflection of the Eucharist.
I have studied it on some level. The issues is the double effect of having sex with a HIV affected partner. Other then some religious orders, and priests of course take a oath to celibacy, we are all called to it except for marriage of course. The bible is littered with the promotion of sex within a marriage and why its important in a marriage.

So how is it stated that a couple who are sacramentally married should stop having sex? Who has the right to do it? Most marriages devoid of sex will topple, is that less of a sin? Or they could be addicted to porn and masturbation, is that less of a sin? See 1 Corinthians 7:4-6

This issue has been spoken on both sides by bishops and moral theologists. There have been no official magisterium or papal decrees on this particular issue that I know of as well. Till someone shows me as such, its up to the particular couple and their priest IMHO.
 
I have studied it on some level. The issues is the double effect of having sex with a HIV affected partner. Other then some religious orders, and priests of course take a oath to celibacy, we are all called to it except for marriage of course. The bible is littered with the promotion of sex within a marriage and why its important in a marriage.

So how is it stated that a couple who are sacramentally married should stop having sex? Who has the right to do it? Most marriages devoid of sex will topple, is that less of a sin? Or they could be addicted to porn and masturbation, is that less of a sin? See 1 Corinthians 7:4-6

This issue has been spoken on both sides by bishops and moral theologists. There have been no official magisterium or papal decrees on this particular issue that I know of as well. Till someone shows me as such, its up to the particular couple and their priest IMHO.
People cannot use artificial birth control nor knowingly expose a souse to a deadly disease. Condoms are not 100% effective anyway. The Church as spoken authoritatively on both of these topics. No matter what scenario you invent, you cannot get around those facts, no matter how many times you say “Yeah, but…”
 
Jermosh what kind of statement are you looking for? The magesterium has always spoken against condoms in marriage. Several Bishop’s as well as the Pope in recent times have said that condoms are not the answer for the fight against HIV/AIDS. What more do you want.
 
Jermosh what kind of statement are you looking for? The magesterium has always spoken against condoms in marriage. Several Bishop’s as well as the Pope in recent times have said that condoms are not the answer for the fight against HIV/AIDS. What more do you want.
I have read those articles, and agree with them fully. But they are not in anyway addressing the use of a PPD in a sex act within a marriage, its a double effect on many levels. These are the effects of this situation:
  • It is morally wrong to abstain sex from your spouse if it is of normal desire.
  • It is morally correct to protect your body from harm or disease.
  • It is morally wrong to put your marriage at risk.
  • It is morally wrong to put yourself in a situation of sexual temptation.
  • St Paul was very explicit in marriage and sex. Study Roman 7 and 1 Cor 7 where he precisely talks about sex in many manners and speaks directly on this issue.
  • It is a absolute necessity to be able to have sexual intercourse for a marriage to be blessed as a sacrament.
These are also the facts:
  • Using a Condom to prevent a STD is NOT a function of it contraceptive attributes, this is the same situation in that using the pill is morally ok due to medical needs, or Ectopic Ligation surgery is morally allowed even though it aborts a baby.
  • The Church has is no way ever stated that the PPD function of a condom is an absolute grave act. It even states that contraception is completely allowed in cases of rape or sexual violence. usccb.org/prolife/issues/abortion/ecfact.shtml
  • Proper use of a Condom can prevent STDs when used in the correct manner. There are studies that show when a couple is properly educated that the infection rate is 0% oversight.house.gov/Documents/20040817143856-95300.pdf
 
Here is a link for “Humanae Vitae,” the encyclical letter of Pope Paul VI “on the regulation of birth”: vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

This papal encyclical declares that artificial means of birth control are wrong.

QUOTE BEGINS:

Therefore We base Our words on the first principles of a human and Christian doctrine of marriage when We are obliged once more to declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun and, above all, all direct abortion, even for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as lawful means of regulating the number of children. (14) Equally to be condemned, as the magisterium of the Church has affirmed on many occasions, is direct sterilization, whether of the man or of the woman, whether permanent or temporary. (15)

Similarly excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means. (16)

Neither is it valid to argue, as a justification for sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive, that a lesser evil is to be preferred to a greater one, or that such intercourse would merge with procreative acts of past and future to form a single entity, and so be qualified by exactly the same moral goodness as these. Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good," it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (18)—in other words, to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general. Consequently, it is a serious error to think that a whole married life of otherwise normal relations can justify sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive and so intrinsically wrong.

QUOTE ENDS

At first glance, it might well appear that the above-quoted words justify the conclusion that “condomistic sex” is intrinsically immoral, as declared by another correspondent on this forum. Yet Pope Paul VI never referred specifically to condoms in this encyclical, but only to artificial means of birth control. That is to say, he did not specifically address the issue of whether or not it might be ethical to use condoms for the purpose of preventing the transmission of what was believed (correctly or incorrectly) to be a sexually transmitted virus capable of resulting in death, even if using such condoms had an effect that was NOT intended or desired of directly interrupting the generative process once it had begun.

Please note that Pope Paul VI did NOT unconditionally oppose interrupting the generative process once it had begun; rather he opposed doing so only when such interruption occurred for the specific purpose “of regulating the number of children.” He did not address the significantly different question of whether or not it might be legitimate to interrupt the generative process for the purpose of interrupting the transmission of a sexually transmitted virus widely believed to be dangerous, including when the procreation of children was deeply desired.

Having said that, I do not dispute that our society overrates the value of condoms as a public health measure, and that public health would be improved if greater emphasis were placed on abstinence from sexual relations outside of marriage than the use of condoms for “safe sex” (as if promiscuity could ever be free of health risks).

Still, I am not aware of anything in Paul VI’s encyclical that contradicts the view that an engaged Catholic couple may use condoms for the purpose of reducing the risk of transmitting a sexually transmitted virus, provided that they do not use condoms for the additional purpose of regulating the number of children that they might have. Condoms are not the focus of Paul VI’s encyclical; artifical means of birth control is instead the issue.
 
“Condoms are not the focus of Paul VI’s encyclical; artifical means of birth control is instead the issue.”
That’s really the big issue of this debate. A condom is not being used as a BC in this situation, I am not sure why some cannot see the difference between these completely different definitions.
 
“Condoms are not the focus of Paul VI’s encyclical; artifical means of birth control is instead the issue.”
That’s really the big issue of this debate. A condom is not being used as a BC in this situation, I am not sure why some cannot see the difference between these completely different definitions.
:rolleyes: Of course it is. :rolleyes:
 
Are there any papal encyclicals that specifically oppose the use of condoms for purposes other than artificial means of birth control? Apparently no one disputes that “Humanae Vitae” never mentions condoms, or that it opposed discontinuing the generative process by artificial means only for the purposes of regulating birth, and not necessarily for other purposes.

It would almost always be improper for a married man to put his lips on those of a woman other than his wife, or to put his arms around the abdomen of a woman other than his wife, and pull her close to his body. As a general rule, it would be disrespectful toward both his wife and the sanctity of marriage for him to do so. But it would not at all be improper for her to do so for a medical purpose in the context of a genuine need for mouth-to-mouth resuscitation or the Heimlich maneuver. In these cases, another person’s life could be at stake, and so life-saving measures would not only be permitted but ethically mandatory, given the paramount sanctity of human life. Likewise, the use of condoms should be discouraged as a general rule, since they are widely used for the purpose of allowing people who don’t want to procreate to have sexual relations with a reduced likelihood of procreation occuring, something that church tradition has recognized as contrary to natural law and the purposes of marriage and the body. But if the bodily acts involved in mouth-to-mouth rescuscitation and the Heimlich maneuver are permissible in cases of medical emergency, even if otherwise inappropriate, could this also be true of the bodily act of using a condom, especially as such was not specifically excluded by Humane Vitae?
 
When we speak of giving all of ourself to the other, somehow, I don’t think this is a very good example of what we mean.

If you really love someone and you have aids wouldn’t you love them enough to not marry them? Wouldn’t you instead choose to remind single and out of love for the other remain celibate and not risk giving someone else a deadly disease if you truly loved them?

Personally if I aquired aids, like through a blood transfusion or something, the last thing that would be on my mind would be to have intercourse with my husband and I seriously doubt that that would be on his mind either.

IF by some remote possibility that I could be in any way, shape or form wrong, then I would just say no.

I have read that the aids virus is small enough to get through a condomn anyway, for those who think this method would be alright. source:
“The rubber comprising latex condom has intrinsic voids about 5 microns in size.” The HIV virus is 0.1 micron. Roland, Rubber World. June 1993. Roland and Sobieski, Rubber Chemistry and Technology. Vol. 62, 1989.
and
In one test, 33% of latex condoms leaked HIV sized particles. Sexually Transmitted Diseases. vol.19. 1992
hli.org/condom_facts_sheet_failure.html
About your statistics. That was back in 1993 when the person from Rubber World said that. As for the condom leak test, that was back in 1992. Condom manufacturing has drastically improved since then. Condoms are electronically tested now and are much more reliable than they used to be.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condom#In_preventing_STDs

Plus, you also have to consider the causes of condom failure:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condom#Causes_of_failure

Also, condoms have been shown to be an essentially impermeable barrier to the particles the size of the HIV virus. I’m serious! See here:
HIV infection is, by far, the most deadly STD, and considerably more scientific evidence exists regarding condom effectiveness for prevention of HIV infection than for other STDs. The body of research on the effectiveness of latex condoms in preventing sexual transmission of HIV is both comprehensive and conclusive. The ability of latex condoms to prevent transmission of HIV has been scientifically established in “real-life” studies of sexually active couples as well as in laboratory studies.
Code:
   **Laboratory studies** have demonstrated that  latex condoms provide an essentially impermeable barrier to particles the size  of HIV.
Code:
   **Theoretical basis for  protection.** Latex condoms cover the penis and provide an effective barrier to exposure to secretions such as urethral and vaginal secretions, blocking the pathway of sexual transmission of HIV infection.
Code:
   **Epidemiologic studies** that are conducted in real-life settings, where one partner is infected with HIV and the other partner is not, demonstrate that the consistent use of latex condoms provides a high degree of protection.
Emphasis in red is mine.

cdc.gov/condomeffectiveness/latex.htm

Please don’t live in ignorance. Condoms are effective at preventing the transmission of the HIV virus.
 
Are there any papal encyclicals that specifically oppose the use of condoms for purposes other than artificial means of birth control? Apparently no one disputes that “Humanae Vitae” never mentions condoms, or that it opposed discontinuing the generative process by artificial means only for the purposes of regulating birth, and not necessarily for other purposes.
I have linked official documents that show that both the PPD and Contraceptive actions of a condoms or other devices are allowed in certain situations. This along shows that the acts are not a absolute sin.
 
I have linked official documents that show that both the PPD and Contraceptive actions of a condoms or other devices are allowed in certain situations. This along shows that the acts are not a absolute sin.
Please forgive me for being stupid, I have a head cold. Where are your links? What do the initials PPD stand for to you?
 
Are there any papal encyclicals that specifically oppose the use of condoms for purposes other than artificial means of birth control? Apparently no one disputes that “Humanae Vitae” never mentions condoms, or that it opposed discontinuing the generative process by artificial means only for the purposes of regulating birth, and not necessarily for other purposes.

It would almost always be improper for a married man to put his lips on those of a woman other than his wife, or to put his arms around the abdomen of a woman other than his wife, and pull her close to his body. As a general rule, it would be disrespectful toward both his wife and the sanctity of marriage for him to do so. But it would not at all be improper for her to do so for a medical purpose in the context of a genuine need for mouth-to-mouth resuscitation or the Heimlich maneuver. In these cases, another person’s life could be at stake, and so life-saving measures would not only be permitted but ethically mandatory, given the paramount sanctity of human life. Likewise, the use of condoms should be discouraged as a general rule, since they are widely used for the purpose of allowing people who don’t want to procreate to have sexual relations with a reduced likelihood of procreation occuring, something that church tradition has recognized as contrary to natural law and the purposes of marriage and the body. But if the bodily acts involved in mouth-to-mouth rescuscitation and the Heimlich maneuver are permissible in cases of medical emergency, even if otherwise inappropriate, could this also be true of the bodily act of using a condom, especially as such was not specifically excluded by Humane Vitae?
You cannot seriously be comparing mouth to mouth as being as necessary to life as a person having sex? Having sex will not save a person’s life as important as it is to marriage and to some of us at any given time.

Condoms damage the unitive and procreative meaning of the marital act. They turn it into a a non marital act. Please read my link from Father Joe with the William May paper. William May points out that condomistic sex does not even consummate a marriage should the couple use it on their wedding night. Such a marriage could be dissolved. That’s how serious it is. The one flesh union cannot happen with a condom in between. That’s one thing that separates it from the pill. The pill destroys the procreative while leaving the untive intact. The condom damages both.

I’ll give it to you again.

fatherjoe.wordpress.com/2006/05/12/condoms-intercourse-aids-among-infertile-couples/

Listen to the following audio-

catholicmentoday.org/2008/09/04/marriage–the-eucharist-the-two-shall-become-one.aspx

Perhaps you will get a better idea of how important the procreative and unitive aspects to the marital act are.
 
I am not comparing having sex to mouth-to-mouth rescuscitation, but rather the use of condoms if such were truly necessary to prevent transmission of a lethal virus.

I don’t see how sexual abstinence would be any less inconsistent to the procreative and unitive purpose of marriage than sexual relations with the use of a condom.

If consummation of a marriage required that a couple had sexual relations without the use of a condom on at least one occasion for the marriage to be regarded by the Catholic Church as valid, the couple might well wish to have sex without a condom on one occasion, notwithstanding any risks that they might fear, even if the couple later chose to use condoms thereafter. The Catholic Church regards the marriage of Joseph and Mary as blessed, while teaching the perpetual virginity of Mary, so in at least one case it regards marriage as valid apart from consummation.

While it might seem that papal or other discussions of procreative and unitive sexuality prohibit all use of condoms, this conclusion was not specifically asserted by Paul VI. A statement to the contrary by a local priest is presumably not regarded as having magisterial authority.

Robert Gallo and Luc Montagnier did not claim to have discovered HIV until the 1980s, i.e., until during the papacy of John Paul II. Thus the specific question of whether condoms might be permitted for some purposes but allowed for other purposes had not arisen at the time that Paul VI wrote “Humane Vitae.”

I would agree that sexual abstinence is a better approach to dealing with sexually transmitted diseases than the use of condoms, as a general rule. But marriage is good and sacred, and forsaking a sacrament over a medical issue is a grave matter.

Addressing the subject of AIDS, John Paul II stated the following: “The Holy See . . . considers that it is necessary above all to combat this disease in a responsible way by increasing prevention, notably through education about respect of the sacred value of life and formation of the correct practice of sexuality, which presupposes chastity and fidelity.”
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29404-2005Jan22.html

As you can see, John Paul II’s words do not resolve the question as to whether that a married couple practicing fidelity to one another should express respect for the sacred value of life by abstaining from all sexual relations or having sexual relations while using a condom for purposes other than birth control. Nor did he declare that all HIV-infected persons should abstain from marriage. Other Catholic leaders quoted in the above article expressed differences of viewpoint on the matter. Here is a quote re one of them:

QUOTE BEGINS

The problem is that anytime we try to give a nuanced response, we see headlines that say, ‘Vatican approves condoms.’ The issue is more complicated than that," Monsignor Angel Rodriguez Luno, a professor of moral theology at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross, said on Friday. "From a moral point of view, we cannot condone contraception. We cannot tell a classroom of 16-year-olds they should use condoms.

"But if we are dealing with someone or a situation in which clearly persons are going to act in harmful ways, say, a prostitute who is going to continue her activities, then one might say, ‘Stop. But if you are not going to, at least do this,’ " said Luno, who is an adviser to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, a Vatican department charged with safeguarding orthodoxy.

One possible avenue for a new condom policy would be a “lesser-of-two-evils” approach. In this regard, condoms could be approved as a means of reducing the instance of danger or sin in cases where someone is bent on having extramarital sex or sex with a spouse while infected with HIV.

Rodriguez Luno – without endorsing a new policy – placed the issue in the context of the Ten Commandments. Sex outside of marriage already breaks the Sixth Commandment, which forbids adultery, he said. “Infecting someone with AIDS would also mean sinning against the Fifth Commandment – you shall not kill,” he said. “Condoms would diminish that danger.”

QUOTE ENDS

I do not believe that condoms have any impact re who acquires AIDS, but I do think that protecting human life belongs with justice and mercy as among the weightier matters of the law, and so should be given great weight in ethical reasoning.
 
Or possibly prophylactic device?

Here is the key passage of the USCCB text for which Jermosh provided the link, with the context referring to multiple-dose oral contraceptives:
“A woman who has been raped should be able to defend herself from a potential conception and receive treatments to suppress ovulation and incapacitate sperm. If conception has occurred, however, a Catholic hospital will not dispense drugs to interfere with implantation of a newly conceived human embryo.”
usccb.org/prolife/issues/abortion/ecfact.shtml

I wonder how anyone could know in advance that an oral contraceptive administered to a victim of sexual assault would not interfere with implantation of an embryo. Perhaps this would involve the pharmaceutical effects of one kind of contraceptive as opposed to another.

In any case, the USCCB text still indicates that under some circumstances the use of contraceptives is not regarded by Catholic leaders as violating Catholic teaching. In this case, the sexual act was a violation of the dignity of the human person, and outside its own unitive purpose.

The other article for which Jermosh provided a link reported that two Catholic leaders similarly taught that the use of oral contraceptives could be permissible in relation to sexual assault. That is to say, their prohibition was not regarded by these leaders as absolute and without exceptions.

The above leads to a question: If the use of oral contraceptives is prohibited by the Catholic Church for use as a means of regulating birth control, but is considered permissible by American bishops (USCCB) and other Catholic leaders as medical treatment for rape victims (provided that such would not result in the killing of a human embryo by blocking implantation), would this not also suggest that the use of condoms might similarly be prohibited as a means of regulating birth control, but potentially permissible in certain medical cases?

Some might take the approach: If the Catholic Church doesn’t specifically permit condoms in a particular context, then they must be forbidden. But one could also conclude: If the Catholic Church doesn’t specifically forbid condoms in a particular context, then they must be permitted.
 
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