English Divine Liturgy

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Seamus_L said:
Not everything translates well. I may get lost after Hospodi Pomiluy, but it still sounds vastly superior. And hearing the Cherubic Hymn in English is like Italian opera in German, it just doesn’t sound right.
Code: 
              Same old one sided arguments. If it's Spanish or Polish, feel free to be as ethnic as you want, but if it's something like Ukrainian, Czech, Slovak, Slovene,Lithuanian etc then you get accused of trying to create an exclusive ethnic club.
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You are such a scholar and a gentleman, sir! 🙂

Alex
 
Liturgy and the entire faith has been incultured since the beginning. Otherwise we’d all be practicing Jewish cultural traditions today. When the Jewish Apostles came to the pagan lands, they taught in the context of the cultures of those lands and they didn’t push their own Jewish culture on other cultures. Isn’t this the result of the First Council of Jerusalem?

We can liken the Ukrainians to Jews, and we are the gentiles. For the Church to be successful outside of Ukraine and among non-ethnic Ukrainians, they have to open up to other cultures. Otherwise, the churches will die in the diaspora as the people here become more American and Canadian and less Ukrainian, and they become detached to the ethnicity of their parish. The Ruthenians and the Melkites have realized this long ago. The Ukrainian Church leadership recognizes it but hasn’t taken any big actions yet. As I mentioned earlier, how do you decide between trying to attract more people who are either Ukrainians who are generations detached from Ukraine, or new non-Ukrainian parishioners, from those who are strong nationalistic Ukrainians who are recent immigrants?

Honestly, I enjoy the Ukrainian culture. But there is a fine line between appreciating the culture and blending in, and being too immersed in the culture and you are drowned by it where you begin to lose your own identity as a non-Ukrainian.
 
Any ethnic parishes are fine so long as they are thriving and healthy. American Catholicism used to be dominated by German, Italian, Irish and other ethnic parishes. But those stituations changed as a result of the increasingly Americanized culture.

My Parish would be fine if Ukrainians kept re-filling the ranks. But as it is either they start evangelizing and become Catholics first and Ukrainians second, or there needs to be a new wave of Ukrainian immigration. If neither of these things happen, the Parish will die.

Alex,

byzcath might not be frequented to much, but at least its one more avenue the Holy Spirit can use.

Also this is encouraging:
byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/93593/Re:%20St.%20Louis%20Byzantine%20Cathol
 
smad0142 said:
Any ethnic parishes are fine so long as they are thriving and healthy. American Catholicism used to be dominated by German, Italian, Irish and other ethnic parishes. But those stituations changed as a result of the increasingly Americanized culture.

My Parish would be fine if Ukrainians kept re-filling the ranks. But as it is either they start evangelizing and become Catholics first and Ukrainians second, or there needs to be a new wave of Ukrainian immigration. If neither of these things happen, the Parish will die.
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Agreed! Canada has been bringing in immigrants in droves, which I am among them. The problem is the top 3 immigrants to Canada are the Chinese, Indians, and Filipinos (yey!). There was a time where there were a lot of Ukrainian immigrants and it was a few decades ago. So you are right, unless a huge number of Ukrainians come, the aging population of the parishes won’t support them being open much longer. Our Eparchy already closed a parish last year and another parish is leased out to the OCA. The metropolis isn’t a Ukrainian destination anyway and most new immigrants are the 3 I mentioned. So unless we can start getting converts or those who are Roman Catholics (like Filipinos) who become attracted to the Byzantine Rite, where else are we getting new parishioners? We can’t rely on Perogy dinners to support the parish financially forever. Especially if that is reliant on a few people. Our weekly contributions are really low. I came from one of the smaller RC parishes in this area and we make 4x the collections every Sunday.

I share your concern smad. Because I fell in love with the traditions of this Rite. So I do not want to lose it. But there’s only so much we can do. I’ve tried proposing programs to get the faith more exposure. I didn’t get far. Both this forum and ByzCath were helpful in planning that out but the problem is there just isn’t much support.
 
The pastor of St. Elias Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Brampton, Ontario, has a wonderful homily on the need to translate the Liturgy into English for English speaking countries. He doesn’t seem to be arguing for the exclusivity of English Liturgies, but he is certainly in favor of the use of English for the sake of keeping 2nd and 3rd generation Ukrainian immigrants in the parish, as well as opening up the parish to non-Ukrainians. I believe the homily is posted on their website.

Also, the Melkite Bishop Nicholas Samra has a wonderful article on the Eparchy of Newton’s website in favor of vernacular translations of the Liturgical Services. While in tone the article does sound very “anti-ethnic,” in practice Bishop Samra loves a good Arabic Liturgy as much as any other Arab-speaking Christian.

As far as musical translations go, I cannot speak for the beauty of the various Slavic Tones (Carpatho-Rusyn, Kievan, Znammeny) and melodies and how well those “work” with an English translation. But I do know that the Byzantine Tones and melodies used by the Greeks, the Antiochians/Melkites, and the Romanians can be set to English translations quite beautifully. For examples see the work of St. Anthony Monastery’s “Divine Liturgies Music Project,” Holy Transfiguration Monastery’s translations, Prosomia and Divine Liturgy CDs, as well as their other works, or Basil Kazan’s work in Liturgical Music. All of these have splendid English translations set to the Byzantine 8 Tones/Modes. They flow naturally, are very powerful and uplifting, and fully convey the Divine Mystery that we are celebrating in our worship.

The Melkites have also done a decent job with their translations and musical settings, although the musical settings are a bit simplified. Still, the simplification certainly makes congregational singing much easier. At my own parish the singing is so powerful that one expects the roof to fly right off the building. 👍
 
As far as encouraging the use of an English vernacular translation in one’s parish is concerned, I’d first speak to the parish priest. Or perhaps to other parishioners to see what kind of interest there is. Then if you can form a group approach your pastor. Perhaps he can celebrate a second Liturgy on Sundays that is in English or a combination of English/Ukrainian/Church Slavonic. If there is no interest in anything but a Ukrainian language Liturgy I don’t know that I’d push the issue too much. One must be sensible to the Ukrainian immigrants for whom English is a second language that they may not understand that well. One must also be cautious of making too sudden of a change in language. There are many pastoral concerns involved and one wouldn’t wish to be a cause of scandal among one’s fellow parishioners.

Probably what will happen is that your parish would end up with a mixed language Divine Liturgy in which half will be in English and half in Ukrainian. 🤷 My own parish is somewhat like that. The dominant language of our Liturgy is English, of course, but large portions of it are also in Arabic, with healthy doses of Greek thrown in from time to time for good measure. Perhaps the parish would be open to doing some of the thrice-repeated hymns in a mixture of English and Ukrainian.

Another suggestion could be to promote the celebration of the canonical Hours in English. If your parish doesn’t already celebrate Matins/Orthros or 3rd Hour before the Divine Liturgy perhaps you could speak to your pastor about adding it. If it is new there should be no problem celebrating it in English, and I wouldn’t think your fellow parishioners would make much of a fuss about it. The blue book of liturgical services available from the Sheptytsky Institute would be a wonderful foundational text for you (come to think of it, I should get myself a copy of that book). I would think that over time, as the parish gets comfortable celebrating the Hours in English on Sunday mornings, they would gradually open up to permitting some English in the Divine Liturgy as well.
 
I’m a member of an Antiochian mission which formed about 5 years ago to address this problem. There was a ROCOR church which used English, but ROCOR wasn’t yet in communion with the ROC or most other Orthodox jurisdictions, so that was a problem for many Orthodox. There was also a small OCA parish downtown that I believe used English, but since most people in this area live in the suburbs it wasn’t a practical choice for many. A group of laity from various ethnic parishes came together and decided to petition the Antiochian Archdiocese to form a new English speaking mission, I believe because the Antiochians were supportive of the idea, and it was granted. We now have about 50 members and a full time priest, and use all English aside from a few petitions in Arabic or Greek. Unfortunately this is probably your best option as an Eastern Catholic as well: look for likeminded people and see about the formation of an English speaking Byzantine parish. I can assure you there are many Protestants looking for a reverent, historic liturgy with a strong attraction to Eastern Christianity that would be a potential mission field (I know because I my mission’s first catechumen and convert). In Christ,

Don Cointin
 
dcointin said:
… I can assure you there are many Protestants looking for a reverent, historic liturgy with a strong attraction to Eastern Christianity that would be a potential mission field (I know because I my mission’s first catechumen and convert). In Christ,

Don Cointin
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I have always felt this way.

I vigorously promoted Byzantine Catholicism with an English liturgy for a long time, for this same reason.

The field is rich, and only needs the laborers. The Byzantine tradition has much to offer the people of this age, it is a unique apostolate, it is a great gift to this fallen culture. It has great unrealized potential. There should be less effort expended on poaching into the RC community (which presumably is already taken care of), and much more effort placed on reaching the Protestants and the unchurched.

I feel the same about Holy Orthodoxy. Whenever possible missions should be opened using English in those communities which use it, French in those communities which use it, and Swahili in those communities which use it. Those parishes which are already established (regardless of what language they themselves use) should devote resources to this church planting effort.
 
Hesychios said:
I have always felt this way.

I vigorously promoted Byzantine Catholicism with an English liturgy for a long time, for this same reason.

The field is rich, and only needs the laborers. The Byzantine tradition has much to offer the people of this age, it is a unique apostolate, it is a great gift to this fallen culture. It has great unrealized potential. There should be less effort expended on poaching into the RC community (which presumably is already taken care of), and much more effort placed on reaching the Protestants and the unchurched.

I feel the same about Holy Orthodoxy. Whenever possible missions should be opened using English in those communities which use it, French in those communities which use it, and Swahili in those communities which use it. Those parishes which are already established (regardless of what language they themselves use) should devote resources to this church planting effort.
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My dear Orthodox Brother,

What exactly did you do to promote Byzantine Catholicism in English? I am really looking for practical stuff here, and having read a lot of your posts I trust you to have acted prudently. (As an unrelated aside, you said you worked to promote BC; should I infer from this that at one time you were EC?) Thanks and all the best!
 
smad0142 said:
My dear Orthodox Brother,

What exactly did you do to promote Byzantine Catholicism in English? I am really looking for practical stuff here, and having read a lot of your posts I trust you to have acted prudently. (As an unrelated aside, you said you worked to promote BC; should I infer from this that at one time you were EC?) Thanks and all the best!
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Aside from the fact that I argued publicly for it, I was very active on the evangelization committee in my parish (which used English). (I was not arguing to turn immigrant parishes into Anglophone parishes, as if we had any.) I spent a lot of time and effort at promoting the church. We had a lot of dreams in those days, I once thought we could plant several new parishes in Illinois and Wisconsin with all the energy we had …

Yes, I was a Byzantine Catholic (in the Metropolia of Pittsburgh), and I still think it could be the best thing going in the Catholic world, provided the resources were to be had.
 
You guys had two things my Parish doesn’t, at the moment: an evangelization council, and zeal. So you had that going for you.

And some would argue that it is the best thing in the world, Catholic or not. 👍
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
The pastor of St. Elias Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Brampton, Ontario, has a wonderful homily on the need to translate the Liturgy into English for English speaking countries. He doesn’t seem to be arguing for the exclusivity of English Liturgies, but he is certainly in favor of the use of English for the sake of keeping 2nd and 3rd generation Ukrainian immigrants in the parish, as well as opening up the parish to non-Ukrainians. I believe the homily is posted on their website.

Also, the Melkite Bishop Nicholas Samra has a wonderful article on the Eparchy of Newton’s website in favor of vernacular translations of the Liturgical Services. While in tone the article does sound very “anti-ethnic,” in practice Bishop Samra loves a good Arabic Liturgy as much as any other Arab-speaking Christian.

As far as musical translations go, I cannot speak for the beauty of the various Slavic Tones (Carpatho-Rusyn, Kievan, Znammeny) and melodies and how well those “work” with an English translation. But I do know that the Byzantine Tones and melodies used by the Greeks, the Antiochians/Melkites, and the Romanians can be set to English translations quite beautifully. For examples see the work of St. Anthony Monastery’s “Divine Liturgies Music Project,” Holy Transfiguration Monastery’s translations, Prosomia and Divine Liturgy CDs, as well as their other works, or Basil Kazan’s work in Liturgical Music. All of these have splendid English translations set to the Byzantine 8 Tones/Modes. They flow naturally, are very powerful and uplifting, and fully convey the Divine Mystery that we are celebrating in our worship.

The Melkites have also done a decent job with their translations and musical settings, although the musical settings are a bit simplified. Still, the simplification certainly makes congregational singing much easier. At my own parish the singing is so powerful that one expects the roof to fly right off the building. 👍
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The Anthology does a good job of using the same musical sets with English translations. We also have a songbook which has Ukrainian and English text using the same music sets.
 
What song book is that? I think that could make the whole thing easier, because as it is right now the subdeacon passes out sheet music at the English DL and I think the Ukrainian DL has a song book.

In addition, how do we help to teach good singing to the parish? I am not so worried with how it sounds, unless it sounds so bad that it is distracting, but with the technical reading of music.

Some people in the parish, myself included, can read music while others, including the subdeacon who leads the English singing, obviously can not. While he sounds beautiful, he elongates a lot of short notes and shortens a lot of long notes and ignores some scales while adding others. It works fine for those just following the words and his voice, but the people who can read music are often singing differently than he is and then we have to play catch up, since after all he is the cantor. So any suggestions on how to improve the parish singing would be great also. Maybe a more beautifully sung English DL will attract more people.
 
smad0142 said:
What song book is that? I think that could make the whole thing easier, because as it is right now the subdeacon passes out sheet music at the English DL and I think the Ukrainian DL has a song book.

In addition, how do we help to teach good singing to the parish? I am not so worried with how it sounds, unless it sounds so bad that it is distracting, but with the technical reading of music.

Some people in the parish, myself included, can read music while others, including the subdeacon who leads the English singing, obviously can not. While he sounds beautiful, he elongates a lot of short notes and shortens a lot of long notes and ignores some scales while adding others. It works fine for those just following the words and his voice, but the people who can read music are often singing differently than he is and then we have to play catch up, since after all he is the cantor. So any suggestions on how to improve the parish singing would be great also. Maybe a more beautifully sung English DL will attract more people.
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The book is called “The Divine Liturgy: An Anthology of Worship.” It has an accompanying 2-disc CD under the same title. Both are available from the Metropolitan Andrej Sheptytsky Institute at the following website: sheptytskyinstitute.ca/?page_id=60

One thing to be aware of with regards to Byzantine music, whether it’s the Byzantine Tones, the Kievan Tones, the Znammeny (Russian) Tones, or the Carpatho-Rusyn Tones, is that it is an aural tradition that does not rely too heavily on sheet music. Typically if sheet music is used it is primarily as a guide or basic skeleton of the melody; the melodies themselves will often vary from parish to parish. So, just because the sheet music says something must be sung one way, typically no one will sing it like that, but will rather sing some variation of that. Probably your subdeacon is singing the hymns the way he learned them from another cantor, and not according to how they are written. Incidentally this same thing occurs in traditional Irish music, along with most other native folk musics.

So I’d say, in order to encourage good singing at your parish, get the Anthology and accompanying CDs and use them as guidelines. From there your parish will probably develop its own way of singing the hymns that would be a mix of the current useage and the hymns as found in the Anthology. 👍
 
Also check out this web address: saintelias.com/ca/music/index.php

Here you will find audio files of a good number of hymns and music sung in English ( and I believe also some in Ukrainian) at the various Divine Services. I believe St. Elias uses the “Anthology for Worship” book referenced in the posts above. These can be another wonderful springboard for learning to celebrate/participate in the Services in English. 👍

I could be mistaken, but I think Archpriest Roman Galadza also makes himself available to do workshops on Galician chant in English (which I believe is the tradition chanting style of the Ukrainian Church depending on what part of Ukraine your parish originated in).
 
smad0142 said:
What song book is that? I think that could make the whole thing easier, because as it is right now the subdeacon passes out sheet music at the English DL and I think the Ukrainian DL has a song book.

In addition, how do we help to teach good singing to the parish? I am not so worried with how it sounds, unless it sounds so bad that it is distracting, but with the technical reading of music.

Some people in the parish, myself included, can read music while others, including the subdeacon who leads the English singing, obviously can not. While he sounds beautiful, he elongates a lot of short notes and shortens a lot of long notes and ignores some scales while adding others. It works fine for those just following the words and his voice, but the people who can read music are often singing differently than he is and then we have to play catch up, since after all he is the cantor. So any suggestions on how to improve the parish singing would be great also. Maybe a more beautifully sung English DL will attract more people.
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The Song Book we use is not the Anthology. The Anthology has mostly English Music. The Anthology is meant for an English Liturgy, not a Ukrainian or Bilingual. Although some hymns are still in Ukrainian, most (like 90% or more) in the book in English.

We have a separate song book. Its also blue but bigger than the Anthology. I don’t know what its called because the title is in Ukrainian. But every hymn is in Ukrainian, anglicized-Ukrainian and English.
 
Hmph. I’ve never seen that one before, Constantine. That doesn’t say much, however, since I’m not as familiar with the Ukrainian books as I am with the Melkite and Ruthenian. Are the contents nash?
 
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