English Mass vs A Spanish Mass [edited]

[puzzleannie]

I’ve attended both an english mass and a spanish mass. Why does the spanish mass celebrate with guitars and other instruments and people clap and sing with smiles on their faces and the english mass is a solemn serious affair. I mean, going to mass should be a happy event every sunday, not a chore. I am sure Jesus will be pleased to have us sing happy, especially at the beginning and end of mass.

90% of Hispanics attending a Spanish-language Mass in this country are probably Americans.

there are just as many parishes offering Mass in English or other vernacular languages who have guitars, upbeat contemporary music, and other options than chant, Latin, organ, and traditional music, in fact it has become the norm in many places. So that comparison may be valid in your parish, but not everywhere. If that is your choice find a parish that has discarded traditional music.

Music serves the liturgy, that is its only legitimate place and function. Its purpose is not to induce “happiness” whatever that means, its purpose is to echo and underscore the sacred action of the altar and as a means of drawing the congregation more fully into contemplation of and participation in that action. Any time or place the music works against that goal, it is out of place.

We do not attend Mass to come out “happy” we participate in Christ’s sacrifice of redemption so he may draw us into communion with himself and each other, and leave to bring the good news out into the world with us.

 

[RLT]

I hate to dispute you, but, that has not been my experience down here in the hinter-land. While I cannot speak to what happens at the Pater Noster, since this topic is under a moratorium, I can tell you that in many parishes in my neck of the woods, there are too many EMHCs during the Spanish-language Masses.

I was just being snarky. The OP is making a broad genralization of the so called Spanish Mass. When I attend Mass in Puerto Rico there are no EMHCs and everyone recieves on the tounge…and it’s not a rad trad parish.

Parishes in Latin America, Spain and other areas where spanish is the language of the Liturgy are just a varied as the English. Some good some bad.

Therefore you don’t have to dispute me.

 

[LeilaE]

My church has such a diverse ethnic community that we must celebrate several Masses, one or more in each language. During the Spanish Masses mariachis play the music. Many selections are very beautiful and inspirational, but sometimes not. At times it begins to feel as if they are competing with the Mass, not adding to it. This tends to happen in two places: once during the preparation of the altar and of the gifts and again just before communion when the priest is to say “This is the Lamb of God.” At both times the mariachis are playing much too long and the priest is left to stand at the altar waiting for them to be finished. This does not happen at the other Masses. It does seem to be a cultural thing to want to display more emotion; not a bad thing. Unfortunately our parishioners convey the feeling that they do not really know their faith, and are there out of obligation, and some for the music.

 

[benedictgal]

My church has such a diverse ethnic community that we must celebrate several Masses, one or more in each language. During the Spanish Masses mariachis play the music. Many selections are very beautiful and inspirational, but sometimes not. At times it begins to feel as if they are competing with the Mass, not adding to it. This tends to happen in two places: once during the preparation of the altar and of the gifts and again just before communion when the priest is to say “This is the Lamb of God.” At both times the mariachis are playing much too long and the priest is left to stand at the altar waiting for them to be finished. This does not happen at the other Masses. It does seem to be a cultural thing to want to display more emotion; not a bad thing. Unfortunately our parishioners convey the feeling that they do not really know their faith, and are there out of obligation, and some for the music.

Your last sentence is most telling and perhaps the best argument for not having Mariachis in the Mass. Mariachis are not really a form of inculturation since the music is not that of the indigenous peoples of Mexico (Aztec, Mayan, etc). They are more associated with parties and fiestas, but, not with anything sacred.

Your second observation about the Mariachis competing with the Mass is also quite valid. Mariachis are more of a performance group. They rouse the crowds to merriment and enjoyment. It cannot be that way with the Holy Sacrifice. There are way too many flourishes and the music does go on for quite a bit.

There were good reasons why my rector deep-sixed the Mariachis when he took charge of the Cathedral. When a new administrator took over, he brought them back. When the new diocesan director of worship was assigned to the Cathedral, he removed them. The new administrator brought them back. He told me that he does not really like them, but, “the people like them”. I told him that it was not about the people liking them; it is about the approriateness (or lackthereof) of this genre for the Mass.

 

[Tepeyac]

Your last sentence is most telling and perhaps the best argument for not having Mariachis in the Mass. Mariachis are not really a form of inculturation since the music is not that of the indigenous peoples of Mexico (Aztec, Mayan, etc). They are more associated with parties and fiestas, but, not with anything sacred.

Inculturation is not the same as “Pre-Columbian” or “Pre-Hispanic”. Mexican culture is a mestizo (mixed Spanish-Indian) culture so it will contain elements of both. One shouldn’t minimize the size & importance of the indiginous heritage but it’s a mistake to equate inculturation with Pre-Columbian culture. Otherwise you coudn’t associate the Catholic faith with Mexican culture, or Latin American culture in general.

As it is, a book review at the INAH site (Mexico’s National Institute for Anthropology and History) here mentions the role of mariachis in indigenous communities:

Mariachi is still important among indigenous peoples, such as Cora, Huichol, Mexicanero, Mayo, Yaqui, Purepecha and Nahua. Mariachi conserves musical, literary, choreographic, religious, symbolic, ritual and sociological features.

 

[benedictgal]

Inculturation is not the same as “Pre-Columbian” or “Pre-Hispanic”. Mexican culture is a mestizo (mixed Spanish-Indian) culture so it will contain elements of both. One shouldn’t minimize the size & importance of the indiginous heritage but it’s a mistake to equate inculturation with Pre-Columbian culture. Otherwise you coudn’t associate the Catholic faith with Mexican culture, or Latin American culture in general.

As it is, a book review at the INAH site (Mexico’s National Institute for Anthropology and History) here mentions the role of mariachis in indigenous communities:

However, you miss one very important point that Musicam Sacram makes, Tepeyac:

Nevertheless, the introduction into the celebration of anything which is merely secular, or which is hardly compatible with divine worship, under the guise of solemnity should be carefully avoided: this applies particularly to the celebration of marriages.

Mariachi music was never meant to be sacred. It is entirely secular. The genre is not conducive to prayerful worship. It is incompatible with it.

 

[Tepeyac]

Mariachi music was never meant to be sacred. It is entirely secular.

Benedictgal,
I guess the point of discussion would be whether mariachis are “entirely secular” or not, or “merely secular” as Musicam Sacram put it. I would argue that they’re not merely secular. As the link I posted stated, “Mariachi conserves musical, literary, choreographic, religious, symbolic, ritual and sociological features.” In other words they played in all sorts of contexts including religious. They were the village musicians used because they were the ones available, they way the brass band in my family’s hometown is used for the patronal feasts because they’re the ones available there.

Furthurmore, secular tunes have been introduced to Mass since at least the Rennaisance, the most famous being L’homme Armeé:

L’homme armé was a French secular song from the time of the Renaissance. It was the most popular tune used for musical settings of the Ordinary of the Mass: over 40 separate compositions entitled Missa L’homme armé survive from the period.

I think people are also confusing “mariachi”, the type of musical ensemble with “mariachi music” as a generic term for the styles of music associated with them and that’s affecting the way they’re perceived. In my experience when a mariachi plays for they play religious music, either traditional hymns ( like the kind some people call alabados) or modern hymns or setting of the Ordinary even if done in a Mexican or Latin folk style.

The genre is not conducive to prayerful worship. It is incompatible with it.

I don’t know if they’re truly incompatible with prayerful worship. Someone earlier posted a youtube clip of a Mass in Guadalajara led by the cardinal of the city. How would you explain this incompatibilty to them? Do you think they believe they’re worshiping prayerfully?

It’s a little ironic I’m defending the use mariachis because I actually think it’s plainchant that needs to be promoted in the Latin Rite of the Church. I just don’t think they’re out of place in communities where they’re part of the local culture. In the end Sacrosanctum Concilium, along with giving Gregorian Chant pride of place, also acknowledges the role of local music traditions. The first is important but that doesn’t deny the second:

1. In certain parts of the world, especially mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. For this reason due importance is to be attached to their music, and a suitable place is to be given to it, not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius, as indicated in Art. 39 and 40.

 

[benedictgal]

Benedictgal,
I guess the point of discussion would be whether mariachis are “entirely secular” or not, or “merely secular” as Musicam Sacram put it. I would argue that they’re not merely secular. As the link I posted stated, “Mariachi conserves musical, literary, choreographic, religious, symbolic, ritual and sociological features.” In other words they played in all sorts of contexts including religious. They were the village musicians used because they were the ones available, they way the brass band in my family’s hometown is used for the patronal feasts because they’re the ones available there.

Furthurmore, secular tunes have been introduced to Mass since at least the Rennaisance, the most famous being L’homme Armeé:

I think people are also confusing “mariachi”, the type of musical ensemble with “mariachi music” as a generic term for the styles of music associated with them and that’s affecting the way they’re perceived. In my experience when a mariachi plays for they play religious music, either traditional hymns ( like the kind some people call alabados) or modern hymns or setting of the Ordinary even if done in a Mexican or Latin folk style.

I don’t know if they’re truly incompatible with prayerful worship. Someone earlier posted a youtube clip of a Mass in Guadalajara led by the cardinal of the city. How would you explain this incompatibilty to them? Do you think they believe they’re worshiping prayerfully?

It’s a little ironic I’m defending the use mariachis because I actually think it’s plainchant that needs to be promoted in the Latin Rite of the Church. I just don’t think they’re out of place in communities where they’re part of the local culture. In the end Sacrosanctum Concilium, along with giving Gregorian Chant pride of place, also acknowledges the role of local music traditions. The first is important but that doesn’t deny the second:

With all due respect, Tepeyac, your arguments really do not hold water. Mariachi music is incompatible with the Mass, regardless of what the folks in Guadalajara may think. They may think that is conducive to prayer, but, it is not. The settings do not fit the Mass. Remember, the music must conform to the solemnity, dignity and majesty of the Mass, not the other way around. Incidentally, the former diocesan director of worship, who is a native of Mexico, had no qualms about banishing the Mariachis from the Cathedral. My rector, who is of German descent (but is more familiar with the Mexican cultures than even the locals) was quite ready to show the Mariahcis the door. Even when they performed for weddings, it was really bad.

Tepayac, you do not hear a schola at a bar or at a cantina. You hear Mariachis. Down here, when we have visitors coming to our area, we welcome them with a huge reception that includes Mariachi music and dancing. My own family reunion featured Mariachis, among other things.

Plus, Mariachis have not been around for a very long time in the grand scheme of things. It is not at all at the same level as the aborigines or the Matachines, whose tradition of dancing before Our Lady of Guadalupe dates back nearly six centuries. Even the ranchera/Tejano genre has infiltrated the Mass. These sound particularly wretched.

The Penitential settings written for Mariachis, for example, are too happy, clappy for this particular rite. We are supposed to be contemplating our sins and be sorrowful for what we have done, not sound like we are heading for a party. The Gloria, at least the versions played down here, are not compatible to the official texts of the Church. The rest of the parts of the Mass are tawdry and feature more of the instruments than the actual prayer. These are merely performance pieces and add nothing to the Mass. It would be better to have the faithful sing the parts accapella.

The Mariachis are just as bad as having a LifeTeen rock band perform at the Mass.

 

[Tepeyac]

Benedictgal,
unfortunately I don’t have time for a longer response right now, it’ll have to wait till tomorrow. However, why do you think that my arguments don’t hold water when I ended my last post with a quote from Sacrosanctum Concilium stating that in certain parts of the world, “due importance is to be attached to their music, and a suitable place is to be given to it” including “adapting worship to their native genius”? Also, do you acknowledge my original points that the word “inculturation” is not strictly applied to traditions that are completely indigenous and that secular tunes like L’homme Armee had long been used at Mass before? I will write a longer response tomorrow.

p.s. I have family ties to Texas and Mexico so I’m familiar with things like “los matachines” etc.

 

[benedictgal]

Benedictgal,
unfortunately I don’t have time for a longer response right now, it’ll have to wait till tomorrow. However, why do you think that my arguments don’t hold water when I ended my last post with a quote from Sacrosanctum Concilium stating that in certain parts of the world, “due importance is to be attached to their music, and a suitable place is to be given to it” including “adapting worship to their native genius”? Also, do you acknowledge my original points that the word “inculturation” is not strictly applied to traditions that are completely indigenous and that secular tunes like L’homme Armee had long been used at Mass before? I will write a longer response tomorrow.

p.s. I have family ties to Texas and Mexico so I’m familiar with things like “los matachines” etc.

But, Mariachi music does not fall under that category. Mariachi music, for all practical purposes, is primarily secular in nature. Its connotation is secular. It is more associated with profane (and I do not mean profane in the bad sense) usage than it is for sacred usage.

The boisterous sounds of the music are not at all conducive to the solemnity, dignity and majesty of the Mass. No matter how much we may like a particular genre, we have to take these factors into consideration. Even the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe did not feature Mariachi music during the Mass marking the Solemnity of OLG. Yes, they made their appearance and played before the Mass, but not during the Mass.

 

[sancte_joseph]

Let me just say… In my experience as a mexican who has most of his life gone to the mexican/latin-american (catholic) liturgy…

It’s is part of our culture… and I am a bit offended when someone said it was associated with parties and such… to who???
to people who have no idea about the culture or look at it from the outside…

LIKE I STATED BEFORE… IN MY EXPERIENCES MARIACHI WAS USED IN MORE SOLEMN OCCASIONS…
It is a celebration! because in mexico/other latin american countries… feast days and solemnities are not just some thing the church does… but what the whole people do… with the great processions through the streets…

the most catholic person i know is my grandma. who lives in mexico… she even has a sign at her gate saying “THIS HOME IS CATHOLIC we do not accept any protestant propoganda or any other cult etc etc… VIVA LA VIRGEN DE GUADALUPE!!! VIVA CRISTO REY!!!”

Anyway just my quick two cents…

 

[benedictgal]

Let me just say… In my experience as a mexican who has most of his life gone to the mexican/latin-american (catholic) liturgy…

It’s is part of our culture… and I am a bit offended when someone said it was associated with parties and such… to who???
to people who have no idea about the culture or look at it from the outside…

LIKE I STATED BEFORE… IN MY EXPERIENCES MARIACHI WAS USED IN MORE SOLEMN OCCASIONS…
It is a celebration! because in mexico/other latin american countries… feast days and solemnities are not just some thing the church does… but what the whole people do… with the great processions through the streets…

the most catholic person i know is my grandma. who lives in mexico… she even has a sign at her gate saying “THIS HOME IS CATHOLIC we do not accept any protestant propoganda or any other cult etc etc… VIVA LA VIRGEN DE GUADALUPE!!! VIVA CRISTO REY!!!”

Anyway just my quick two cents…

I live on the Texas side of the Rio Grande (bordering Mexico), specifically in Laredo, as my background indicates. Laredo is 95% Mexican-American.

With all due respect, I stand by my statements. Mariachi Music, inasmuch as you and others defend it, is incompatible with the solemnity, dignity and majesty of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I would direct you to read what Pope John Paul II wrote regarding sacred music:

1. On various occasions I too have recalled the precious role and great importance of music and song for a more active and intense participation in liturgical celebrations[9]. I have also stressed the need to “purify worship from ugliness of style, from distasteful forms of expression, from uninspired musical texts which are not worthy of the great act that is being celebrated”[10], to guarantee dignity and excellence to liturgical compositions.

In this perspective, in the light of the Magisterium of St Pius X and my other Predecessors and taking into account in particular the pronouncements of the Second Vatican Council, I would like to re-propose several fundamental principles for this important sector of the life of the Church, with the intention of ensuring that liturgical music corresponds ever more closely to its specific function.

1. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, “sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action”[11]. **For this very reason, “not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold”, **my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that “if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious”[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category “sacred music” has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.

The fact that the immediate former director of diocesan worship, a priest who is a native of Mexico, found **severe deficiencies **with this particular genre to the point that he stopped the Mariachis from performing (and the fact that the first rector, who is well versed in liturgy also took the same action) at the Cathedral is a clear indication that this is not at all suitable for the Mass.

The Mariachis, themselves, really have no concept of liturgical propriety. Even the so-called settings written for Mass for Mariachis to use really are not in synch with the tone of the Mass. The Penitential Rite is too jovial and contrived. As other posters indicated, the music goes on and on without ceasing. As I have experienced it, even the texts of the Mass are severely edited. The Gloria marked “tradicional” in some song books (specifically by OCP) chops up the official text to the point that it is unrecognizable. The Sanctus also suffers from the same fate.

This also begs the question: do people come to the Mass for the Holy Sacrifice itself, or do they come in order to be entertained by the Mariachis? Furthermore, if proponents support “active participation”, just how many of the faithful are able to sing along with the parts of the Mass if (a) they do not match what is in the Roman Missal and (b) they are overpowered and overtaken by the boisterous noise? How can one pray with trumpets and guitars blaring all over the place? Is this conducive to prayerful worship?

Mariachis are great for festivals and events that happen in the Church outside of the Mass. Whether you choose to admit it or not, Mariachi music, at least here in the United States, is more associated with cantinas, festivals, fiestas and other parties, not with the liturgy.

 

[sancte_joseph]

Mariachis are great for festivals and events that happen in the Church outside of the Mass. Whether you choose to admit it or not, Mariachi music, at least here in the United States, is more associated with cantinas, festivals, fiestas and other parties, not with the liturgy.

You said something crucial to this argument in the end of your post… “at least here in the U.S.”

Like I’ve stated 3 times now… and will probably be the last time… Mariachi music is used on solemn occasions sometimes before… during… or after… It’s part of the culture… which i guess should be superseded with a nice piano or organ… that i usually here in the english mass…

Sorry maybe because I’ve experienced different things… It’s just another problem that has come around after loosening the “rules” in the liturgy…

I’d be okay with the organ and some nice gregorian or polyphonic chant… It also helps united different cultures… but in a world where much more horrible things are happening mariachi music is better than other things I’ve seen or heard…

 

[benedictgal]

You said something crucial to this argument in the end of your post… “at least here in the U.S.”

Like I’ve stated 3 times now… and will probably be the last time… Mariachi music is used on solemn occasions sometimes before… during… or after… It’s part of the culture… which i guess should be superseded with a nice piano or organ… that i usually here in the english mass…

Sorry maybe because I’ve experienced different things… It’s just another problem that has come around after loosening the “rules” in the liturgy…

I’d be okay with the organ and some nice gregorian or polyphonic chant… It also helps united different cultures… but in a world where much more horrible things are happening mariachi music is better than other things I’ve seen or heard…

But, interestingly enough, Mariachi music **was not used at the Mass **for the Solemnity of Our Lady of Guadalupe in the basilica in Mexico City dedicated to her honor. It was used before the Mass for the mananitas, but, not during the Mass. In fact, they had a full-blown choir with some Latin thrown in, as well as an organ.

 

[Tepeyac]

After an unexpected delay, my follow up post:

But, Mariachi music does not fall under that category.

Why? In a Mexican or Mexican-American community it is “their music” and part of their “native genius”. I’ve already demonstrated that something doesn’t have to be strictly Pre-Columbian to be part of the culture (like flour tortillas for example).

Mariachi music, for all practical purposes, is primarily secular in nature.

I’ll repeat the quote I posted above from the National Institute of Anthropology and History (emphasis mine):

Mariachi is still important among indigenous peoples, such as Cora, Huichol, Mexicanero, Mayo, Yaqui, Purepecha and Nahua. Mariachi conserves musical, literary, choreographic, religious, symbolic, ritual and sociological features.

Its connotation is secular. It is more associated with profane (and I do not mean profane in the bad sense) usage than it is for sacred usage.

sancte joseph has stated his experiences with mariachis. My own have been at cultural and family-type events. Your associations are not the only ones people have with mariachis and clearly in Mexico itself they were not “tainted” enought by the wrong sorts of associations to not have been used in the first place.

Maybe it’s your own personal associations that have colored your views. Had you been raised with mariachis at weddings and baptisms would you feel a bit differently?
If people just called them “small string orchestras with horns” would that be any different?

The boisterous sounds of the music are not at all conducive to the solemnity, dignity and majesty of the Mass.

As far as I’m able to tell Sacrosanctum Concilium does not mention “boisterous” or it’s avoidance in it’s paragraph on inculturation:

1. In certain parts of the world, especially mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. For this reason due importance is to be attached to their music, and a suitable place is to be given to it, not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius, as indicated in Art. 39 and 40.

For comparison’s sake, are you familiar with the Missa Luba? It’s a setting of the Latin Mass by a priest to Congolese music from the 50’s, before Vatican II. You can listen to the Kyrie here.

No matter how much we may like a particular genre, we have to take these factors into consideration.

What’s considered solemn, dignified, and majestic are not inflexible or completely uniform even within the Latin Rite. Even within the Extraordinary Form, you could not fault a small parish for offering a Low Mass when a High Mass was always considered to be the norm. Some people people don’t like orchestral Masses, like Mozart’s or Haydn’s, because they don’t think they’re as conducive to worship as Gregorian Chant. To those people they might sound rather boisterous in comparison.

Even the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe did not feature Mariachi music during the Mass marking the Solemnity of OLG. Yes, they made their appearance and played before the Mass, but not during the Mass.

That argument can work both ways. A mariachi was not used during Mass at the Basilica but it was used during a Mass at the Cathedral of Guadalajara, presided by the Cardinal. One is a shrine but the other is a bishop’s seat. And at the Basilica it was still used within the Basilica for Las mañanitas.

No one is saying that mariachis have to be used all the time everywhere, just that their use in an of itself is not contrary to what the Church allows.

I want to note that the original post did not even mention mariachis and that “spanish Mass” does not not equal “mariachi mass” even in Mexican or Mexican-American communities. A variety of music styles of used, including organ, though yes in my experience they generally do tend to have more singing and be outwardly expressive.

 

[rivera01]

Tepeyac,
I can understand where you are coming from regarding mariachis. I am Mexican American, and have been raised to have great respect for my roots. BTW I live close to the border of Sonora and California, so I know what type of influence there is around here. As far as mariachis playing during mass, I feel that it is not the proper music to play for Worship. I have come to question, not only the vailidity of mariachi music in Mass, but also the ritualistic dancing of the matachines on the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe. While they do not dance during mass, they dance in front of the procession then sit, but it still leaves me to ponder if this practice gives a valid reverence or not since they are of pagan origin. Now I know that during the history of our Church, christians have turned pagan temples and holidays; December 25 comes to mind, into churches and feast days. I know this was done as an insult to both pagan practices and gods, and essentially saying, “We won!” What are your thoughts?

 

[Tepeyac]

Tepeyac,
I can understand where you are coming from regarding mariachis. I am Mexican American, and have been raised to have great respect for my roots. BTW I live close to the border of Sonora and California, so I know what type of influence there is around here. As far as mariachis playing during mass, I feel that it is not the proper music to play for Worship. I have come to question, not only the vailidity of mariachi music in Mass, but also the ritualistic dancing of the matachines on the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe. While they do not dance during mass, they dance in front of the procession then sit, but it still leaves me to ponder if this practice gives a valid reverence or not since they are of pagan origin. Now I know that during the history of our Church, christians have turned pagan temples and holidays; December 25 comes to mind, into churches and feast days. I know this was done as an insult to both pagan practices and gods, and essentially saying, “We won!” What are your thoughts?

Hello rivera01,
there is actually a long history of ritualistic dancing for Our Lady of Guadalupe right from the beginning and it relates to one of her first miracles. When the Holy Tilma was first taken to her shrine at Tepeyac, it was led in a procession that included dancers. The natives had a tradition of shooting arrows in the air in their celebrations and one of these struck a man and mortally injured him. He was brought before the Tilma and was cured. This miracle is commemorated in a large painting that’s house in a museum behind the Basilica. If you visit that museum you can see the painting depicting the incident.

Dancing was allowed by the Spanish friars right from the beginning (edit: or from nearly the beginning). There was even precedence in Spain for dancing at religious events. If you do a web search for “Los Seises” you’ll read about a group of boys that still dance a few times a year before the high altar of the Seville Cathedral.

So in the case of Mexico and the U.S. Southwest ritual dancing for Catholic feasts is several centuries old and has Hispanic as well as Pre-Hispanic roots.

 

[benedictgal]

After an unexpected delay, my follow up post:

Why? In a Mexican or Mexican-American community it is “their music” and part of their “native genius”. I’ve already demonstrated that something doesn’t have to be strictly Pre-Columbian to be part of the culture (like flour tortillas for example).

I’ll repeat the quote I posted above from the National Institute of Anthropology and History (emphasis mine):

sancte joseph has stated his experiences with mariachis. My own have been at cultural and family-type events. Your associations are not the only ones people have with mariachis and clearly in Mexico itself they were not “tainted” enought by the wrong sorts of associations to not have been used in the first place.

Maybe it’s your own personal associations that have colored your views. Had you been raised with mariachis at weddings and baptisms would you feel a bit differently?
If people just called them “small string orchestras with horns” would that be any different?

As far as I’m able to tell Sacrosanctum Concilium does not mention “boisterous” or it’s avoidance in it’s paragraph on inculturation:

For comparison’s sake, are you familiar with the Missa Luba? It’s a setting of the Latin Mass by a priest to Congolese music from the 50’s, before Vatican II. You can listen to the Kyrie here.

What’s considered solemn, dignified, and majestic are not inflexible or completely uniform even within the Latin Rite. Even within the Extraordinary Form, you could not fault a small parish for offering a Low Mass when a High Mass was always considered to be the norm. Some people people don’t like orchestral Masses, like Mozart’s or Haydn’s, because they don’t think they’re as conducive to worship as Gregorian Chant. To those people they might sound rather boisterous in comparison.

That argument can work both ways. A mariachi was not used during Mass at the Basilica but it was used during a Mass at the Cathedral of Guadalajara, presided by the Cardinal. One is a shrine but the other is a bishop’s seat. And at the Basilica it was still used within the Basilica for Las mañanitas.

No one is saying that mariachis have to be used all the time everywhere, just that their use in an of itself is not contrary to what the Church allows.

I want to note that the original post did not even mention mariachis and that “spanish Mass” does not not equal “mariachi mass” even in Mexican or Mexican-American communities. A variety of music styles of used, including organ, though yes in my experience they generally do tend to have more singing and be outwardly expressive.

First of all, with all due respect, please do not play the cultural card. Mariachi music is a fairly recent innovation, thus, it would not really fall under inculturation. Comparing it to flour tortillas is also not a really good argument, as we are discussing what should and should not be used for the Mass.

Many folks associate Mariachis with fiestas. In fact, when our local convention and visitors bureau hosts convention groups and tour buses, the groups typically ask for a welcoming reception with a Mariachi band. So, your idea of referring to them as a stringed orchestra with horns does not work very well.

I have seen and heard Mariachis at weddings and baptisms, as well as Quince Anos celebrations and, there was even a Mariachi band at a funeral graveside service. But, in the case of the first three, they have almost always been in the context of the reception, not necessarily within the Mass, itself. When they have been employed for these Masses, their brand of music is not a good fit for the solemnity and dignity of the Mass. In fact, not many of them know what is proper to the Mass. For example, at one wedding at the Cathedral, the rector had to send the wedding coordinator up to the choir loft to silence the bad because they were playing “Spanish Eyes” during the offertory.

Furthermore, the settings they use for the Kyrie are too jovial and do not fit with the solemnity and sorrow for sins that the penitential rite is supposed to convey. The settings for the other parts of the Mass drag on and on and are really too much.

Perhaps you should read what Pope St. Pius X wrote in his MP on Sacred Music, which, as far as I know, has not been disregarded by the Church (in fact, Pope John Paul II paid tribute to the MP on its 100th anniversary back in 2003):

1. The Church has always recognized and favored the progress of the arts, admitting to the service of religion everything good and beautiful discovered by genius in the course of ages – always, however, with due regard to the liturgical laws. Consequently modern music is also admitted to the Church, since it, too, furnishes compositions of such excellence, sobriety and gravity, that they are in no way unworthy of the liturgical functions.

Still, since modern music has risen mainly to serve profane uses, greater care must be taken with regard to it, in order that the musical compositions of modern style which are admitted in the Church may contain nothing profane, be free from reminiscences of motifs adopted in the theaters, and be not fashioned even in their external forms after the manner of profane pieces.

And, again:

1. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.

Inasmuch as the driving force behind the MP was the problem of opera and theatrical music infiltrating the Church back in 1903, 100 years later, the problem remains, but, with new genre wanting to barge through the door. As Pope Paul VI noted, not everything is fit to cross the threshhold. And, as Pope Benedict XVI wrote in Sacramentum Caritatis, we cannot say that one song is as good as another.

 

[benedictgal]

Tepeyac,
I can understand where you are coming from regarding mariachis. I am Mexican American, and have been raised to have great respect for my roots. BTW I live close to the border of Sonora and California, so I know what type of influence there is around here. As far as mariachis playing during mass, I feel that it is not the proper music to play for Worship. I have come to question, not only the vailidity of mariachi music in Mass, but also the ritualistic dancing of the matachines on the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe. While they do not dance during mass, they dance in front of the procession then sit, but it still leaves me to ponder if this practice gives a valid reverence or not since they are of pagan origin. Now I know that during the history of our Church, christians have turned pagan temples and holidays; December 25 comes to mind, into churches and feast days. I know this was done as an insult to both pagan practices and gods, and essentially saying, “We won!” What are your thoughts?

The Matachines, at least the ones down here, conduct their ritual dances before the Mass begins. In other cases, they will dance during the Posadas (Advent), but, never as part of the Mass.

The one point I will agree with Tepeyac on is the fact that this is a centuries-old custom. If you recall, prior to the Guadalulpe apparitions and subsequent miracle, the dance was actually a part of the cultic worship of the Aztecs. When, as a result of the Guadalupe apparitions and miracle, the Aztecs embraced Christianity, they transformed (at least) this part of their cultic worship ritual and directed it towards Christ and His Mother.

Furthermore, this type of dance is not at all like the kind of junk that goes on with girls in flowing dresses prancing up and down the aisle carrying bowls of incense and trying to call it “liturgical dance”. The Church does not have a Tradition of dance in the liturgy and thus, the prancing girls are not part of our cultic worship.

 

[rivera01]

The one point I will agree with Tepeyac on is the fact that this is a centuries-old custom. If you recall, prior to the Guadalulpe apparitions and subsequent miracle, the dance was actually a part of the cultic worship of the Aztecs. When, as a result of the Guadalupe apparitions and miracle, the Aztecs embraced Christianity, they transformed (at least) this part of their cultic worship ritual and directed it towards Christ and His Mother.

Yes I do agree that this is a centuries old custom. But there is no doubt that it is, as you have pointed out, of pagan origins.

On the other hand, I am not against this practice being celebrated before Mass, as is the case in my parish. I was just wondering if it was licit or not, now that I know I don’t have mixed feelings about it.