English Propers for EVERY SUNDAY

[TheMc]

The McC, I think you need to learn to empathize!

Just because something is easy for you doesn’t mean that it’s easy for others.

Try this. Find a book in a language that you do not understand. In fact, ideally, a langauge that you don’t even know what language it is. Then sit and try to read and enjoy it for a full hour.

If you are a linguist, you might enjoy this exercise. You will look upon this as a fun cryptogram, just waiting for you to solve it.

But most of us would NOT enjoy this exercise or get anything whatsoever out of it. We would stare at the gibberish and wonder what the heck the book is about.

Well, that’s the way many people feel about the music that you say is “easy.”

That’s not a fair comparison at all. Neumes are not that much different from modern notation, once you get over the visual differences of square notes, one less line, and notes clumped together. Certainly nothing like your comparison. Up still means up, down still means down, and the half step-whole step relationships still exist, you just find them in a different way. For anyone versed in modern notation, it shouldn’t be that difficult to pick up. Does this help you?

I hope this illustration helps you to understand about empathy. You simply have to get in the skin of other people and understand how they are seeing this “new music” thing. It is strange and unpleasant for them

If you don’t attempt to empathize with others, you will just make a lot of people upset and even angry as you keep intoning, “It’s so easy!” You will be very unpopular, and you won’t accomplish your goal, which is to get people to sing the “new” music or at least not hate the new music. Also, your goal is to try to keep people from walking away from the Catholic Church because of the new music.
…
original post to read the whole thing.]
…

Or there are quite a few Lutheran churches in town where the organists still play Bach and Buxtehude and the great old German hymns.

Yes, I know–these people are giving up Jesus Truly Present in the Eucharist for music. Shocking.

Shocking? Not really. It shows that their motivations for going to Mass is not to worship God, but to go to a concert. If you don’t like someone’s concert, you don’t go to the next one. That is the attitude that many people have.

But that’s reality. Are we OK with that?

We love those people, and want them to have the fullness of the faith, but not at other everyone else’s expense, and at obedience’s expense. So yes, we are ok with that, if they are leaving because we do the right thing. That’s their problem, not ours.

Is it better that these “lukewarm” Catholics walk away and let all of us “catechized Catholics” who understand what is happening at Mass go on without them? I get the feeling sometimes that people on CAF would prefer this. Well, I don’t. I don’t want to see anyone leave the Catholic Church because of music.

So I agree with our music director–we will be very slow about this changeover so that people aren’t shocked out of the pews.

First, you seem to give the impression that we should keep our liturgically questionable music to keep as many people in the church (building) as possible. If people are leaving because you make the music better, then they might be there for the wrong reason.

Yes, I know that it is not good at all for people to leave or join the church because of guitar Masses taking over, or a parish switching to chant and polyphony. But I must point out that while the acceptable usage of guitars and the music surrounding them is questionable, chant and polyphony is the** ideal music** for Mass, so it is not the same thing.

Pope Benedict has spoken of a “creative minority”. This means that we need to be true catholics, a creative minority, and even if we loose people along the way, in the end, it will be better for everyone because we will be doing the right thing, and then more people will be drawn to it because of the true beauty, not the superficial stuff that we had before.

Also, I genuinely pity those who have not been taught to see the beauty of true sacred music. I’m not recommending that we make exceptions from the norm (See SC 116, GIRM 41, etc), but take a tough-love approach, and show them how beautiful it is. Also, in 1974, Pope Paul VI released Jubilate Deo, intended to be a minimum repertoire of chant for every catholic. MINIMUM.

However, many people today probably don’t know these chants, and some, if not many might not want to learn them or sing them.

But should we not teach them because they don’t want to? I’ll answer this with another question: Would any good parent make an exception for their child if they don’t want to clean their room? Eat their veggies? Wouldn’t a good parent take a “tough-love” approach, and do what is best for the child?

I advocate this tough love approach. A parish near me did this, with support of the bishop, by bringing back the full Gradual Romanum propers to every Sunday Mass, along with a return of the altar rail, and getting rid of the unnecessary EMHCs. It hasn’t been easy for them, the pastor got beat up (not physically), people got mad, some even left, but in the end, their parish is doing well, and many people love the priest, choir director and the parish as a whole because they have done this. They are thriving.

 

[ProVobis]

Also, I genuinely pity those who have not been taught to see the beauty of true sacred music. I’m not recommending that we make exceptions from the norm (See SC 116, GIRM 41, etc), but take a tough-love approach, and show them how beautiful it is. Also, in 1974, Pope Paul VI released Jubilate Deo, intended to be a minimum repertoire of chant for every catholic. MINIMUM.

Indeed, that was the whole idea behind the SC document of Vatican II, passed by a vote of 2147 to 4.

(1) Keep Latin in the Latin-Rite liturgy
(2) Gregorian chant
(3) Participation by the congregation

 

[TrueLight]

When they are stacked, you start with the bottom one, and then the top one. Other than that, almost all neumes can be simply read “left to right”. (such as “son” and “God” on the last line).

Good question!

Here’s a handy little chart:
http://yankehome.com/guide/INDEX_files/image011.jpg

Thanks! That clears up a lot.

 

[TheMc]

In case some of you have not realized what these actually sound like, here is two of them, with mp3s. I’ve heard these sung, but many of you probably haven’t.

Introit for All Saints (listen)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Introit for All Souls, and for Funerals (listen)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[jwinch2]

In case some of you have not realized what these actually sound like, here is two of them, with mp3s. I’ve heard these sung, but many of you probably haven’t.

Introit for All Saints (listen)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3yY66jKK4...8/s400/IN_1_gaudeamus-sanctorum-omnium_MF.png

Introit for All Souls, and for Funerals (listen)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3yY66jKK4...X6SUy4BH7qk/s400/IN_6_requiem-aeternam_MF.png

Beautiful. Thanks for posting that! Just goes to show how beautiful and reverent English can be when done well.

Its also interesting to note that for those who are trained to read modern music notation and not chant notation, according to this article, they will be available in both forms. That ought to make adoption much easier…

Peace,

 

[ProVobis]

In case some of you have not realized what these actually sound like, here is two of them, with mp3s. I’ve heard these sung, but many of you probably haven’t.

Introit for All Saints (listen)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3yY66jKK4...8/s400/IN_1_gaudeamus-sanctorum-omnium_MF.png

No disrespect intended but this sounds too much like an Anglican service. English with all its homophones and silent letters is hard to follow in chant, unless you’re very familiar with it. (Ever hear of lyricitis?) I wouldn’t recognise it in a Catholic Church nor Anglican, for that matter. I couldn’t even follow the singing in the royal wedding. But that’s me.

 

[TheMc]

No disrespect intended but this sounds too much like an Anglican service. English with all its homophones and silent letters is hard to follow in chant, unless you’re very familiar with it. (Ever hear of lyricitis?) I wouldn’t recognise it in a Catholic Church nor Anglican, for that matter. I couldn’t even follow the singing in the royal wedding. But that’s me.

Also no disrespect intended, but maybe it sounds like that because no one is used to things like this. Up until now, it was usually a latin chant from the GR, or a hymn.

 

[Sarabande]

Its also interesting to note that for those who are trained to read modern music notation and not chant notation, according to this article, they will be available in both forms. That ought to make adoption much easier…

That’s great. I’m glad to see that they were thinking about everyone who would be involved in implementing it at their parishes when doing this. Of course, it would be nice if all musicians could also eventually learn how to read the chant notation as well, but this is great starting point.

 

[Sarabande]

Also no disrespect intended, but maybe it sounds like that because no one is used to things like this. Up until now, it was usually a latin chant from the GR, or a hymn.

I think there were some Catholic parishes which were doing English chant for a while. I remember a former CAF member had mentioned how his parish used the English chants since the 1980s. I believe it was because they weren’t allowed to used Latin initially. But, you are right, many people probably aren’t used to hearing the chant in English (some are not even used to hearing chant in Latin.)

 

[jwinch2]

That’s great. I’m glad to see that they were thinking about everyone who would be involved in implementing it at their parishes when doing this. Of course, it would be nice if all musicians could also eventually learn how to read the chant notation as well, but this is great starting point.

Some music directors at the parish level may get some slight compensation but it is hardly enough to justify the amount of work they do. Our’s runs the music ministry for four different weekend masses, all daily masses, and all special events. She went to school for music and spent 30+ years teaching and conducting music professionally. She is vastly overworked but despite having an add for an additional music minister for almost a year, no one qualified has applied or stepped up. Why we would want to require her to go and learn a totally different way of notation and then teach it to the musicians and choirs is quite beyond me. Our members of our parish choirs and our musicians are volunteers who give up a good portion of their time and energy trying to enhance the liturgy of their parish. Maybe its just me, but I don’t see how it adds anything for them to be able to read chant notation.

I’m very excited about the English chants and hope to see them widely embraced but I guess maybe i’m missing something here in terms of the chant notation?

 

[TheMc]

Some music directors at the parish level may get some slight compensation but it is hardly enough to justify the amount of work they do. Our’s runs the music ministry for four different weekend masses, all daily masses, and all special events. She went to school for music and spent 30+ years teaching and conducting music professionally. She is vastly overworked but despite having an add for an additional music minister for almost a year, no one qualified has applied or stepped up. Why we would want to require her to go and learn a totally different way of notation and then teach it to the musicians and choirs is quite beyond me. Our members of our parish choirs and our musicians are volunteers who give up a good portion of their time and energy trying to enhance the liturgy of their parish. Maybe its just me, but I don’t see how it adds anything for them to be able to read chant notation.

I’m very excited about the English chants and hope to see them widely embraced but I guess maybe i’m missing something here in terms of the chant notation?

I know we’ve had this discussion before, but what you are missing is that it’s not that hard to learn, especially if she’s had 30 years of experience with “regular” music.

 

[jwinch2]

I know we’ve had this discussion before, but what you are missing is that it’s not that hard to learn, especially if she’s had 30 years of experience with “regular” music.

I saw some discussion on it above though I was not involved in this particular topic. Having said that, I don’t imagine that it is hard to learn. I guess I am just having a hard time understanding the point. Maybe its just me?

 

[Sarabande]

Some music directors at the parish level may get some slight compensation but it is hardly enough to justify the amount of work they do. Our’s runs the music ministry for four different weekend masses, all daily masses, and all special events. She went to school for music and spent 30+ years teaching and conducting music professionally. She is vastly overworked but despite having an add for an additional music minister for almost a year, no one qualified has applied or stepped up. Why we would want to require her to go and learn a totally different way of notation and then teach it to the musicians and choirs is quite beyond me. Our members of our parish choirs and our musicians are volunteers who give up a good portion of their time and energy trying to enhance the liturgy of their parish. Maybe its just me, but I don’t see how it adds anything for them to be able to read chant notation.

I’m very excited about the English chants and hope to see them widely embraced but I guess maybe i’m missing something here in terms of the chant notation?

Oh, believe me, I know all about how underpaid most music directors are at Catholic churches. Sometimes I think it’s a miracle that we even have decent musicians in the Catholic church anymore. I was only thinking about what the ideal would be for everyone to learn it. At this point, I’m just happy to hear that they did publish the works in modern notation as well, because it will make it easier for those who have no experience with the neumes.

The parish choir I sang in when I learned all of this music was volunteer as well, so I also understand the sacrifices and time given to the Church by these volunteers every Sunday, feast day, etc. In regards to the chant notation (neumes, etc.), your choir director probably wouldn’t have a difficult time learning it since she has had that much experience. It took me a few weeks when I first joined that choir because we sang these chants with the neumes almost every week and I’m the type of person who is determined to succeed at something I’ve been tasked with (which I know has its positives and negatives - I have to work very hard to not be such a perfectionist), so I make it happen.

In regards to your comment, there is a lot of the older/ancient music which is only published with the older notation. I’ve had to sing a lot of early polyphonic works which also only published the music with the neumes, so it was vital for us to learn. And the vast majority of our choir were not musicians, so our music director did a heck of job teaching them. He was/is incredible and I remember him saying that it would have just been easier for these publishers to print them in the modern notation. Well, once people got Finale and other music software, we began to see more free, public domain music in which these works finally had the modern notation. That said, you had to be very careful who you used because some of them had mistakes.

Of course, most parish choirs are probably not going to be picking up a polyphonic mass that was only published with the neumes. But it can be helpful for doing the chants, since not all of these chants were published in the modern notation. So, ideally it would be nice for everyone (at least the music directors) to learn them.

 

[jwinch2]

Interesting. Thanks for the thoughtful response!

Peace,

 

[Hasso]

Let me begin by saying something: the question I am about to ask is real, and not designed to provoke an argument or discord. The same hoes for the opinion I am going to express. Internet forum posting typically fail to convey tone properly.

Comments: I have never heard chant in English before. Nor am I musically trained. I sing ina strictly “monkey hear, monkey sing” basis. To me modern musical notation is nearly a closed book, and as far as I know, a neume may be a type of granola . I was actually pretty excited at the prospect of your English chant samples. Having heard them, and thought about having them at mass, I came away with two thoughts 1) its pretty enough for the first 30 seconds, but my comprehension rate is about 50%. At best. Then im bored and have to really focus on the mass to keep my mind from wandering. 2) “I’m going to need to keep an eye on the boy(age 2) he’s going to see this as a great time to do something”

Question: is this something you actually expect the congregation to sing, or will they be asked to sit out the musical segment of a mass which utilizes these chants?

A final observation is that if it is imposed, I’ve gotta say that while I’m not going to change my mass attendance a whit, I’m going to tend to view it as a cross more than anything else.

Again, these remarks are intended charitably, as a view from the pews., not the choir. Opinions seemed to be requested is all.

 

[TheMc]

Let me begin by saying something: the question I am about to ask is real, and not designed to provoke an argument or discord. The same hoes for the opinion I am going to express. Internet forum posting typically fail to convey tone properly.

Comments: I have never heard chant in English before. Nor am I musically trained. I sing ina strictly “monkey hear, monkey sing” basis. To me modern musical notation is nearly a closed book, and as far as I know, a neume may be a type of granola . I was actually pretty excited at the prospect of your English chant samples. Having heard them, and thought about having them at mass, I came away with two thoughts 1) its pretty enough for the first 30 seconds, but my comprehension rate is about 50%. At best. Then im bored and have to really focus on the mass to keep my mind from wandering. 2) “I’m going to need to keep an eye on the boy(age 2) he’s going to see this as a great time to do something”

Question: is this something you actually expect the congregation to sing, or will they be asked to sit out the musical segment of a mass which utilizes these chants?

A final observation is that if it is imposed, I’ve gotta say that while I’m not going to change my mass attendance a whit, I’m going to tend to view it as a cross more than anything else.

Again, these remarks are intended charitably, as a view from the pews., not the choir. Opinions seemed to be requested is all.

While the congregation could sing these, they are intended for the choir or the cantor, as the propers traditionally are. If your mind is wandering after two minutes of a choir piece, I mean no offence, but that is probably because you need to work on your prayer and focus. I really don’t know how else to say it.

You mention it would be a cross to hear these. If you don’t like it, that’s an excellent attitude. I wish more people would have that attitude. The Mass is not about us, and our preferences, it is about the public worship of God, in the way he has asked us to. One thing he has said (through the church) is that gregorian chant is the best music for the Mass, not random hymns. Think of it this way:

• The readings are chosen every week by the church, in her wisdom.
• The opening prayer is chosen every week by the church, in her wisdom.
• The hymns are chosen by the choir director, in his wisdom?

Wouldn’t it seem to make more sense to use the texts that the church has chosen to be sung for the procession, offertory and communion? That’s all that the SEP is doing: taking the texts the church has given us each week, and putting them to simple melodies to make them accessible to choirs and cantors. Does that make sense, and help you understand it? By using these, parishes are trying to do what the church wants for the music at Mass.

I hope this helps.

 

[Hasso]

McC;

I believe you have misapprehended my meaning with respect to my mind wandering; when i am at the mass, I pray along with it. When the prayer, readings, music or what have you becomes incomprehensible to my ear; it becomes difficult to pray along with the mass, and to begin a private, silent prayer other than the mass’s prayer seems somewhat disrespectful ; I pray private devotions on my own -the mass as you point out, is public worship. Thusly, I pray along with the community. When I am unable to understand them mass, it disrupts that prayer. Hence, I don’t believe that id like to see much of it. Does this make sense?

I do understand your point about the selection of music at the mass, and indeed, there are some fairly silly songs that wind up being used. I suspect or views of appropriate music are at variance however. That said, unless the Church elects to impose this from the top down - in which case I would be forced to obey, and tolerate it - I’d as soon see chant in a smaller rather than larger role. Ans yes, I know the v2 docs do say chant should be given a place of special honor. That said, why they should have said this, is to me, nearly as great a mystery as the full depth of the relationship between the members of the Trinity.

To my (possibly tin) ear,there is plenty of reverent music to use, some of which even calls for the use of a guitar. But, as I said, for my purposes, it remains, like so much else, a Mystery. I suspect that I am far from the only one who feels this way. To stand the question on its head, why should one undertake to update the mass so as to make it inaccessible to many of the congregation?

All of that said, I do appreciate your responses to my questions.

 

[TheMc]

McC;

I believe you have misapprehended my meaning with respect to my mind wandering; when i am at the mass, I pray along with it. When the prayer, readings, music or what have you becomes incomprehensible to my ear; it becomes difficult to pray along with the mass, and to begin a private, silent prayer other than the mass’s prayer seems somewhat disrespectful ; I pray private devotions on my own -the mass as you point out, is public worship. Thusly, I pray along with the community. When I am unable to understand them mass, it disrupts that prayer. Hence, I don’t believe that id like to see much of it. Does this make sense?

Yes, that makes sense. But this thing is to encourage interior meditation. Clearly, praying “privately” must not be a bad thing, or the latin Mass would be a bad thing, and the latin propers at an english ordinary form Mass would be a bad thing. But they aren’t. They are a very good thing. I’m probably not articulating this very well, but I hope you get the idea of what I’m saying.

Welcome to CAF!

 

[Hasso]

McC;

Certainly there are places where private prayer belongs in the mass; notably during the distribution of communion, for example, before and after you receive. That said, the mass is for public worship, and when something interferes with my ability to do that… I think you understand.

I suspect that its late and we could both articulate our points better.

Again, thanks for your responses; although, respectfully, I’m hoping for more limited revival than you I think.

Also, thank you for the welcome!

 

[pnewton]

Yes, it is that hard to learn. I am with Cat on this. I think what we have here is a case of something seeming easier from the other side of knowledge.