Enoch and Elijah

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Well I believe death is the focal point, I don’t know what I could suggest must have occurred? I would be reaching conjecture.

What does death of the body mean when an individual can flat line and the printed read out will pile up on the floor indicating, not only death, but documentation of the time of the dead being dead. Yet they are still here? That’s when they say, “Oh it was a minor miracle”.

Let alone the complications defining life? Seems we have issues with both?

So we are talking death of the body in relation to mortality vs immortality according to whom in understanding the mystery?
 
GaryTaylor said:
Well I believe death is the focal point, I don’t know what I could suggest must have occurred? I would be reaching conjecture.

What does death of the body mean when an individual can flat line and the printed read out will pile up on the floor indicating, not only death, but documentation of the time of the dead being dead. Yet they are still here? That’s when they say, “Oh it was a minor miracle”.

Let alone the complications defining life? Seems we have issues with both?

So we are talking death of the body in relation to mortality vs immortality according to whom in understanding the mystery?
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I’m not sure I understand your question, but enoch and elijah are said to have gone to Heaven without having died. I’ve read other things that say they were relocated and died later.
 
AmbroseSJ said:
Your basing your assumptions on faulty Scripture exegesis rather than on Church doctrine.
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The Church does not have a doctrine either way about Enoch and Elijah.
However, it is generally presumed that Enoch and Elijah are in Heaven and did not die before they were taken up, albeit they would not have made the final step to Heaven until after the death and resurrection of Christ.
Whatever your opinion is, Catholics are allowed to believe that Enoch and Elijah are in Heaven AND that they did not die before being taken up…

For example, Pope John Paul II stated in a General Audience on July 21, 1999 that Enoch and Elijah went to heaven:

The depiction of heaven as the transcendent dwelling-place of the living God is joined with that of the place to which believers, through grace, can also ascend, as we see in the Old Testament accounts of Enoch (cf. Gn 5:24) and Elijah (cf. 2 Kgs 2:11).

What is the “faulty Scripture exegesis” on this topic?
 
Faith1960 said:
I’m not sure I understand your question, but enoch and elijah are said to have gone to Heaven without having died. I’ve read other things that say they were relocated and died later.
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2-Kings 2-11-12 “As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two.”

Which heaven?

John 3:13 "No man ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man!

The fire and wind represent God in 2-Kings, in his “being taken”, Elijah was not beatified, the meaning of death is mortality as opposed to immortality. For sure this occurred its evident as it suggested Elijah also returns.

The speculation is to transpose the secular understanding of life and death which has no immortality.

He continued through his purification process , he was taken in “fire”. He was “taken”

Faith, what does it mean when we say here “Oh the Lord has taken John Doe”
 
Here’s some other thinking on Firmament - Heaven’s.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Heaven

catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/how-many-heavens-are-there

newadvent.org/cathen/06079b.htm

christianbookshelf.org/aquinas/summa_theologica/whether_there_are_waters_above.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/07218a.htm

Genesis 5-21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah.

After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters.

Altogether, Enoch LIVED A TOTAL of 365 years.

What happened the 365th year which culminated in the total he lived? Oh wait, he walked with God.
 
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thistle:
The Church does not have a doctrine either way about Enoch and Elijah.
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Exactly. But the Church does have doctrine regarding the Redemption and Original sin. Added to this are other places in the Bible which contradict the faulty exegesis, such as what Gary Taylor posted: John 3:13. Also St. Paul says ALL have sinned, and all need redemption. Romans 3:23 Faith1960 has also posted a link to a very good website for explaining the controversy of Enoch and Elijah. Lastly, Elijah DID return already in the person of St. John the Baptist, as we know from the Archangel Gabriel himself. Luke 1:17 and the Lord. Matt 17:12
 
AmbroseSJ said:
Exactly. But the Church does have doctrine regarding the Redemption and Original sin. Added to this are other places in the Bible which contradict the faulty exegesis, such as what Gary Taylor posted: John 3:13. Also St. Paul says ALL have sinned, and all need redemption. Romans 3:23 Faith1960 has also posted a link to a very good website for explaining the controversy of Enoch and Elijah. Lastly, Elijah DID return already in the person of St. John the Baptist, as we know from the Archangel Gabriel himself. Luke 1:17 and the Lord. Matt 17:12
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Elijah did not return in the person of John the Baptist and that is certainly NOT a Church teaching.

The fact that we are allowed to believe Enoch and Elijah were taken up without dying means your reference to the doctrine of Redemption and Original Sin is faulty otherwise the Church would not allow us to believe in them not dying before being taken up.
 
Here’s a point though, what isn’t official teaching has to be in respect and regards to official teaching. Hey, don’t get me wrong, discuss away, me I’m just a bit hesitant to extend past what the Church is saying. So for me this all has to be in line with dogma, Original Sin, Incarnation/Resurrection. IC and the Dormition/Assumption. Mindful of this also is what many of the Saints as mentioned have said, including many not mentioned.
 
Faith1960 said:
St. John Paul Il said “heaven, hell and purgatory are states of being of a spirit or human soul, rather than places as commonly perceived and represented in human language.”
So how can two human bodies be there?
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This, above, is why I’m having such a hard time with them being in Heaven. Maybe my concept of Heaven is faulty?
 
GaryTaylor said:
2-Kings 2-11-12 “As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two.”

Which heaven?

John 3:13 "No man ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man!

The fire and wind represent God in 2-Kings, in his “being taken”, Elijah was not beatified, the meaning of death is mortality as opposed to immortality. For sure this occurred its evident as it suggested Elijah also returns.

The speculation is to transpose the secular understanding of life and death which has no immortality.

He continued through his purification process , he was taken in “fire”. He was “taken”

Faith, what does it mean when we say here “Oh the Lord has taken John Doe”
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It means they died and then went to Heaven. But Enoch and Elijah didn’t die. Perhaps they received glorified bodies even though they hadn’t died?
 
Faith1960 said:
It means they died
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It means they underwent a purification process in regards to human -supernatural.
Faith1960 said:
and then went to Heaven. But Enoch and Elijah didn’t die.
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But they were not Glorified at this particular moment of purification.

I believe what St John Paul is speaking of is the same as saying: someone will go into purgatory as a location identified by a location. Same as saying up and down in relation to Sheol or the Heavens. Down would be where specifically? Down is in relation to up to signify a spiritual change, but “where” is the location of “down”.
Faith1960 said:
Perhaps they received glorified bodies even though they hadn’t died
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But they did die to their own mortality not immortality they suffered some kind of death and the body took on a change, but not the benefits promised to all of us through the passion, death and resurrection of the Lord, and they were at some point glorified as they are indeed acknowledged in the Church’s.
 
GaryTaylor said:
It means they underwent a purification process in regards to human -supernatural.

But they were not Glorified at this particular moment of purification.

I believe what St John Paul is speaking of is the same as saying: someone will go into purgatory as a location identified by a location. Same as saying up and down in relation to Sheol or the Heavens. Down would be where specifically? Down is in relation to up to signify a spiritual change, but “where” is the location of “down”.

But they did die to their own mortality not immortality they suffered some kind of death and the body took on a change, but not the benefits promised to all of us through the passion, death and resurrection of the Lord, and they were at some point glorified as they are indeed acknowledged in the Church’s.
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I’m pretty sure they are said to have not seen (or tasted) death.
 
Faith1960 said:
Ive read other things but this is from EWTN, and was easy for me to find online again.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=368490

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=309975
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I don’t think he is saying exactly the same as you though. His point is well taken on scripture. Here he has the same conclusion as I discussed. His point was addressed by St Thomas in relation to St John.

Finally, we should note the text of Jn 3:13 which reads: “No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.” This would tend to confirm the fact that Elijah and Enoch, while having some special experience, did not ascend into the fullness of heaven.

Here…

“Again, as to Elijah and Enoch, nothing precludes them coming down from heaven;”

I can’t pretend to read the Fathers mind in relation to the two articles. And as to mortal and immortal and spiritual favor, you can receive spiritual favor and remain mortal or immortal as St Paul and the example I gave you.
 
TheDoctor said:
No human body is in Heaven nor ever will be in Heaven. They are there in their glorified bodies - like the ones that Jesus and Mary have.
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Incorrect.

Jesus and the Blessed Virgin are in Heaven, both body and soul.

All souls (whether theyre in Heaven or Hell) will be reunitied with their corporal bodies at the Ressurection of the Dead.
 
Faith1960 said:
Here’s a non-Catholic source that says E&E didn’t die and goes on to explain what they believe happened to them.

biblestudy.org/question/where-is-enoch-and-elijah.html
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“When Christ and the apostle Peter state that not ONE human being is now in heaven, they are referencing the location of God’s throne, which is the center of the entire universe. When the book of Hebrews says Enoch was “translated” or “taken,” it is not stating that God somehow took him ‘early’ because of his righteousness to receive his eternal award AHEAD of countless people who also deserve eternal life. He traveled WITHIN what we today call the sky to another location on planet earth, which God decided not to name, in order that he should not die at that time. This is exactly the same thing that occurred to Elijah.”

Little rough, little rough. 🙂 I’d opt for the Fathers without knowing his entire thinking. 😃
 
GaryTaylor said:
“When Christ and the apostle Peter state that not ONE human being is now in heaven, they are referencing the location of God’s throne, which is the center of the entire universe. When the book of Hebrews says Enoch was “translated” or “taken,” it is not stating that God somehow took him ‘early’ because of his righteousness to receive his eternal award AHEAD of countless people who also deserve eternal life. He traveled WITHIN what we today call the sky to another location on planet earth, which God decided not to name, in order that he should not die at that time. This is exactly the same thing that occurred to Elijah.”

Little rough, little rough. 🙂 I’d opt for the Fathers without knowing his entire thinking. 😃
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So the Church Fathers say…what, exactly? :confused:
 
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