Enough already...

[O.S.Luke]

A “liberal” is someone a “conservative” doesn’t like. Interesting to note that Jesus was neither - but was labeled a heretic and radical by the religious.

“Liberal” and “conservative” need to die, anyway. They’re intended to be adjectives, not nouns.

 

[AnneBOK]

LEARN TO LAUGH EVERYBODY!!!

god-bye
Anne

 

[twiggymoo]

Thanks for the laugh ! That is the first time ANYONE has ever used me and the word “liberal” in the same sentence. I suppose for a gun toting, pro-life, die-hard Republican like myself that is quite an accomplishment

Anne

It is “tolerance” that has pulled down America. Multi-culturalism, and all the “celebrate other cultures” and “ethnicity heritage months” have done more harm than you imagine. Sometimes I have to pinch myself because I find myself numb to all of it.
I used to be a die-hard republican - but now I am apolitical. It makes no difference who I vote for - we Americans do not have choices - although both political parties like to think they are different - they are really the same in the end. I remember being so happy that Bush got reelected. But he got us into this idiotic war in Iraq for what reason I’ll never know. Iraqi Christians have suffered more, post-Saddam, than before.
May the Lord bless them.

 

[exoflare]

To the OP (if she is not done “leaving”)…

I don’t think you have a real complaint here. Tolerance is not the same as “acceptance”. But if you insist, good bye.

 

[Megatron]

There are great people in involved in every walk of life, race, religious conviction, etc. I don’t think any with an ounce of common sense would try to dispute this.

As for Mormons, as an ex-Mo I have seen both the best and worst of members of this faith. I have witnessed those who would give the shirts off their backs and the last dollar in their wallet to help someone in need. In the same light, I have also seen temple-worthy Mormons shun and outright abandon others.

As a cradle Catholic who joined the LDS church, was an active temple-worthy Mormon for +5 years and who has sense returned to Catholicism, I’ve also seen my fair share of so-called Catholics do and say some pretty offensive, non-Christian things.

Are Mormons nice people? Absolutely! Are they also gonna “love bomb” a potential convert? You betcha! I served as a ward missionary for a period of time and am well aware of these tactics.

I guess the point I’d like to drive home is why I’m Catholic and not Mormon. Again, you see the best and worst of all people in any religious group. Why I’m Catholic has to do with Truth. Take a step back for a moment. If someone wants to join the LDS church, what does it take? It only takes 4-6 discussion, attending church once, meeting the bishop (is that a requirement anymore?) and interview with missionary and you can get baptized. These missionary discussions are geared to appeal to Christians that are unfamilar with core LDS doctrines and principles to make them appear quite similar. What LDS converts soon learn is that many of the core doctrines of Mormonism are not learned nor taught until you are a member, sometime not until you’ve been a member for a year.

So what if you’re on the outside and looking in on Catholicism? What does one do to become Catholic? As I’m sure you already know, you enroll in RCIA and for an entire year you are in an environment were you can learn, grow and question - and it’s a lot less of a high pressure situation. There’s no trick punches in this process; you can choose to agree or disagree with what the Catholic Church teaches and professes, but everything is out in the open.

Do I regret my time as a Mormon? That’s really a tough question to answer…I really think my time in the LDS church was part of my spiritual journey. I wouldn’t be the Catholic today - who has a strong conviction (or “testimony” in Mormon terms) of the truthfulness of Christ and the church he established 2000 years ago - were it not for my time in the LDS church. At the same time, as a Mormon you are taught that those who oppose or leave the church are “apostate” and should be avoided. I thought that for a long time until I realized that Mormonism wasn’t true. I really sincerely tried to make my return to Catholicism as amicable as possible with our LDS friends, however, that just wasn’t meant to be. The lies and rumors that were spread about us were filthy and dispicable. Do I think everyone in our former ward was responsible for that? Not at all, but enough were that really broke our hearts. I still harbor no malice or ill-thought for them, but I saw enough of a pattern to know that this was common place: Rather than talking with us open and directly about our decision to return to Catholicism, some took it upon themselves to create reasons for us.

In close, I’m sorry that you feel that there have been some Catholics that have not handled you and your comments with deft and care. That’s gotta hurt, however, be reasonable enough to understand that you can’t make sweeping generalizations about Catholics (or any group of people) from message boards and chat rooms. A faith is something that is lived, not only discussed in electronic format.

 

[PaulDupre]

I saw enough of a pattern to know that this was common place: Rather than talking with us open and directly about our decision to return to Catholicism, some took it upon themselves to create reasons for us.

Same in our case. They just could not cope with the idea that we had decided that Mormon teachings were false and the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction, or that Joseph Smith was a fraud. Many of them spread rumors that we had “a Word of Wisdom problem”, or that we had committed some terrible sexual sin that had driven the Holy Ghost away and opened us up to Satan.

When we ran into ward members at the store or at the theatre, they would not speak with us and actually seemed afraid. Finally we moved away and were safely anonymous.

Anyone who leaves will be subjected to this treatment, even if the rumors never get back to him, as they did to us.

Paul

 

[ricko]

You be the judge,

In case nobody figured this out, I HAVE been to many LDS services. Anybody can put a statue of Christ at the head of a church but that does not mean that is where all the hearts and minds are focused. Christ is most certainly NOT absent (ok - eucharist excepted). Just becasue they do not have statues and a large cross with Jesus portrayed hanging from it most certainly does not mean that “Christ is completely absent” as you say. Do we really need all the “props” at the front of the church (in the form of statues etc) in order to worship Crist? I think not. If one cannot worship Christ in his/her own heart ~without~ props then I would be so bold as to say that their faith is not made of much faith at all.

Anne

Originally Posted by Victorious I’m tempted to ask where you learned to give yourself virtuous airs over people who like pictures and statues in church; but since the answer seems obvious, I won’t. Are you aware you are being led into the ancient heresy of iconoclasm, which was put to bed at the second Council of Nicaea in 787? It appears as though you are being led into other things as well, including the minimization of the Eucharist. Less time at Mormon services and more time in front of the Blessed Sacrament would seem to be indicated.

Are YOU aware that you have NO IDEA who I am and therefore have NO RIGHT to judge me as having “virtuous airs” as you so put it? I was merely partaking in a discussion and pointing out a possible point of view. How dare you judge me? With Catholics like YOU I would much rather be in a Mormon service than sit next to you anywhere. I think I will call those missionaries right now - thanks so much for giving me the incentive. You can now tell all your friends (oh yes - and your confeesor) that you helped a struggling Catholic find their way to the LDS church.

Anne

 

[PaulDupre]

I’ve thought the same thing you must be thinking, Rick. I just hesitate to post it. One of the unwritten rules of forum participation is to assume that everyone is and represents just what she claims to.

Paul

 

[Allweather]

It reminds me of those stories you hear where a little girl thinks she’s flirting online with a little boy her own age and then finds out it’s really a fat, bald, dirty old man.

 

[Jeanette_L]

It reminds me of those stories you hear where a little girl thinks she’s flirting online with a little boy her own age and then finds out it’s really a fat, bald, dirty old man.

:bigyikes:

 

[LittleDeb]

So sad that so many here believe that one cannot support those of another faith without standing firm in their own. I told my daughter today that the nicest people at the Catholic forums are the Mormons…go figure…

I am not naive, stupid, full of airs or hoodwinked. THe lack of tolerance among the majority of Catholics here - who say they are Christian - is truely sad.

I will not be participating (much to the relief of more than a couple of you I am sure ) in these forums anymore. I thought it would include intelligent discussion - not slurs and accusations and arguments based on assumptions not fact.

Anne

I am very sorry to see you go. My very best friend is a devout LDS. I am a devout Catholic. I pray for her every day and she prays for me. We have often discussed converts from our respective faiths into the other. The most important thing we have both noticed is that those who didn’t know much about the faith they left are usually not very happy in the faith they join.

When an LDS comes to me asking about conversion, I am happy to share the Truth of The Catholic Church. But, it is very important that they understand what they are leaving. They have to earn their way out of their church. I am sorry to see you leaving our forums and possibly The Church. I defend the LDS people at every turn (on these forums and in regular life.) It is only their doctrines I disagree with. I am sorry your experience here has not been helpful.

May God bless you in your journey. I personally hope it brings you back to the Catholic Church.

 

[E.E.N.S]

And frankly, I had more respect for Catholicism (I was raised Catholic) before I started hanging out at these forums. When I read threads that tear down, make fun and misrepresent other faiths…it makes me sick. I am not talking about threads that discuss belief issues of different faiths. There are ways to debate issues that are not demeaning, that is a fine thing. But there are so many threads that are just…wrong, mean, etc, that yes, I’ve lost a great deal of my respect for Catholicism.

So you’ve lost respect for Catholicsm because of some people who posted in a manner that you dislike (when a lot of times they are just reacting to a non-Catholic doing the same thing to them)?

Aren’t you the one who posted this below??

cheddarsox:

I know that the excuse of how others behave elsewhere is NEVER an excuse.

If I am misinterpretting one of these two statements then I apologize, but it seems a bit hypocritical to me.

 

[cheddarsox]

So you’ve lost respect for Catholicsm because of some people who posted in a manner that you dislike (when a lot of times they are just reacting to a non-Catholic doing the same thing to them)?

Aren’t you the one who posted this below??

If I am misinterpretting one of these two statements then I apologize, but it seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Part of the reason that these forums have worn away at my respect for Catholicism IS the way that people conduct themselves. Yes. I guess it’s that old “by their fruits…” thing, if this is what your faith causes you, empowers you and instructs you to do…then I do start to think less of the faith. And yes, there are lots of people here who say it is because of their faith that they post as they do.

Also, I have learned more of the teachings of the Catholic church here, and some of the apologetics and theology have also erroded my respect for the Church.

As far as my second statement which you quoted. The fact that people of other faiths behave badly on their faith forums, is not an excuse for Catholics to justify bad behavior on their own forum. That is what I meant.

I was raised Catholic, and was taught that we weren’t supposed to be basing our level of behavior on those around us, but on a higher, truer standard. And do you want to know why? Because…we were to represent God’s truth in the world, We might be the only catechism the other person ever sees, the only Gospel the other person ever hears.

If I have been behaving badly here, and justifying it by saying that someone else is behaving worse…then I guess I am a hypocrite. I honestly hope I have not done that. I come to discussion forums to learn and share, not to hurt and disrupt discussion.

cheddar

 

[Allweather]

I just don’t know what the problem is. This is religious debate. Religious debate is only slightly kinder, gentler, than religious war. If you want or need touchy-feely, then stay away from religious debate. Religious debate is for people who aren’t afraid to get into the rough and tumble to defend their faith, without getting their feelings hurt.

Frankly, I haven’t seen anything here that is truly mean spirited. The folks who think THIS is mean, need to get around the internet a little more and try arguing politics and religion in some other boards. Compared to most others I’ve seen and participated in, these Catholic Forums are like Disneyland.

 

[rmcmullan]

I’ve spent some time thinking about the posts here at the non-Catholic forums. Sometimes, I think, “Well that person just went off on a rant, disregarded everything that’s been posted so far and just launched an all out attack!” And then I would think, “At least this person is honest. Instead of launching some sort of discussion where either of us pretends he understands what he is talking about, they just jump right to the conclusion and denounces what I believe in.”

So I turned that over in my mind for awhile and came to the conclusion that although the second poster does gets marks for honesty and directness, it is much better to discuss the points of what we believe in. The reason why is it turns my mind towards heavenly things. Plus I have incredibly thick skin. It’s almost as though I am insensitive!

So to AnneBOK I would say if the discussion here at the non-Catholic forums is not helping you to think of heavenly things, you might try to find something more inspiring elsewhere. There is truth and there is opinion. The purpose of debate is actually to help find the truth through all the opiniion.

 

[Valke2]

I haven’t been looking at these forums for very long, maybe six months, but, from what I’ve seen so far, mostly they are quite well-behaved compared to others I’ve seen and in which I’ve participated.

Those non-Catholics who feel oppressed here might do well to remember that this is a Catholic forum. They should expect that non-Catholic points of view would elicit strong responses. Defense of the Faith is something that should be done with vigor, IMO. Thick skins are in order. Armor, even.

But I keep looking up and seeing these words: “Non-catholic religions.” Does that mean this area is for Catholics to trash other religions? I don’t think the issue is whether non-catholics have their feelings hurt. The issue is what does the behavior of posters here say about thier own religious beliefs and how does it reflect on catholism and christaintiy?

 

[mark_a]

So sad that so many here believe that one cannot support those of another faith without standing firm in their own. I told my daughter today that the nicest people at the Catholic forums are the Mormons…go figure…

I am not naive, stupid, full of airs or hoodwinked. THe lack of tolerance among the majority of Catholics here - who say they are Christian - is truely sad.

I will not be participating (much to the relief of more than a couple of you I am sure ) in these forums anymore. I thought it would include intelligent discussion - not slurs and accusations and arguments based on assumptions not fact.

Anne

As long as you’re not preaching hate or superiority, you’ll get no trouble from me (unless I’m having a moment).

If you’d like to hear from someone with real patience, charity, and virtue, pay attention to Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Wood, Fr. Pacwa, Steve Ray, or any of the others in Catholic media.

 

[Allweather]

But I keep looking up and seeing these words: “Non-catholic religions.” Does that mean this area is for Catholics to trash other religions? I don’t think the issue is whether non-catholics have their feelings hurt. The issue is what does the behavior of posters here say about thier own religious beliefs and how does it reflect on catholism and christaintiy?

To go to the last part of your question first, I don’t think the “behavior of posters here” reflects in the slightest on the Catholic faith. We’re all just human beings who are posing argument from personal points of view using knowledge we’ve accumulated. None of us is perfect. We make mistakes. Don’t confuse a rude Catholic with Catholicism itself, anymore than you should confuse a rude Mormon with Mormonism at large. While I haven’t seen any outright rudeness in these forums, I’m sure there are rude people here. I just haven’t run into them, yet.

Now for the first part of your question. I’m not the authority of what belongs in what forum. BUT, it seems to me, that this area, “Non-Catholic Religions” is a place where non-Catholic religions should be discussed. It stands to reason that when committed non-Catholics show up and promote their non-Catholicness, a concerted response from Catholics is going to be had. I don’t see any problem with this.

I also don’t see any problem with firm argument, even heated argument. It means we believe in what we argue, and that is a very good thing. If this were the Let’s-All-Hold-Hands-And- Sing Kumbaya forum, then I should think less heated dialog would be appropriate.

 

[spauline]

I apologize for the times when I have not been charitable. I openly confess that I am a sinner and have gotten angry, not only forums but with persons in real face to face dialogue. But I usually try to apologize when I do, and I am a firm believer that there are many holy souls outside Catholicism who will be entering eternal life before many Catholics. For just because a person"belongs" to a religion does not necessarily mean they make avail of what that religion has to offer. I do not speak so much of Catholics on this CA stuff, for they mostly are quite committed to their faith and knowledgable. I mean more Catholics who are but Catholic in name only, and who do not really care about religion.

To point out one thing, I have an article that sort of points this out, here: Many Protestants are Holier.

 

[cheddarsox]

To go to the last part of your question first, I don’t think the “behavior of posters here” reflects in the slightest on the Catholic faith. We’re all just human beings who are posing argument from personal points of view using knowledge we’ve accumulated. None of us is perfect. We make mistakes. Don’t confuse a rude Catholic with Catholicism itself, anymore than you should confuse a rude Mormon with Mormonism at large. While I haven’t seen any outright rudeness in these forums, I’m sure there are rude people here. I just haven’t run into them, yet.

.

Whether you think Catholic behavior should affect how non Catholics feel toward Catholicism…it does. That too is human nature. We judge based on our experience. No getting around that.

Catholics also “judge” Protestantism by the behavior of Protestants, and paganism and Islam etc by the behavior of its followers. That is obvious from these boards.

You may wish it were not so. But that is how it is. Being human, I can’t imagine how the behavior of people, whom we mostly know only by a screen name, and the faith they profess can NOT influence how we feel about the faith they come here to discuss and defend.

Most of the Catholics that post on this particular forum do not present themselves as “in name only Catholics”. They post quotes out of the CCC, and all manner of links to Catholic sites, they recommend in depth Catholic literature and do present themselves as REAL Catholics, the backbone of the faith.

Anyway, that is how it comes across to me as a non Catholic, long time member of these boards. You may not like it, but that is how it is. You may think it’s silly, wrong, etc, but, no matter, it is still the reality. If you care deeply about Catholicism, then it might be best to realize that for some people who come here, curious, you are how they will come to judge your faith. That may not seem fair, but it is the truth.

Do with that what you will.

cheddar