Enough already...

[cheddarsox]

Now for the first part of your question. I’m not the authority of what belongs in what forum. BUT, it seems to me, that this area, “Non-Catholic Religions” is a place where non-Catholic religions should be discussed. It stands to reason that when committed non-Catholics show up and promote their non-Catholicness, a concerted response from Catholics is going to be had. I don’t see any problem with this.

I also don’t see any problem with firm argument, even heated argument. It means we believe in what we argue, and that is a very good thing. If this were the Let’s-All-Hold-Hands-And- Sing Kumbaya forum, then I should think less heated dialog would be appropriate.

I don’t see any problem with real, even at time “heated” debate over the issues at hand. But regularly I experience something quite different. We are discussing issues, and when someone doesn’t have a quick strong refute, they jump off the issue and start dissing the person, or change to another issue of that person’s faith that they feel they can refute.

It’s just bad debate tactics, and bad interpersonal behavior. And I don’t know if it fools them, but it doesn’t fool many people here.

Another tactic is to ask the Non Catholic a question about their faith, and when they answer it, to twist the response around in an attempt to malign and misrepresent the other person’s faith. That is deceitful behavior, indeed, it is bearing false witness against one’s neighbor.

It stinks no matter what the faith of the person doing it is. It stinks when the Non Catholics do it to Catholics too. I’m not trying to defend anyone’s bad behavior. I don’t care what faith a person is, if they act badly, it reflects badly on their faith. When non Catholics come here and stoop to dirty tactics, it makes me think less of their faith too.

There is so much fodder for true discussion, there is no need to stoop to that level of behavior to keep things interesting. It follows the basic forum rules, discuss ideas, not people, and stay on topic.

cheddar

 

[E.E.N.S]

It stinks no matter what the faith of the person doing it is. It stinks when the Non Catholics do it to Catholics too. I’m not trying to defend anyone’s bad behavior. I don’t care what faith a person is, if they act badly, it reflects badly on their faith. When non Catholics come here and stoop to dirty tactics,

Exactly. Up until this point you were giving me the impression that you thought only Catholics were guilty of this type of behavior, when in fact both sides have been doing this, (and IMO I see this type of behavior from a smaller percentage of the Catholics here, than that of some of the others.)

cheddarsox:

it makes me think less of their faith too.

How a person acts doesn’t affect my view of their faith in most cases, (how could I think less of my own Faith because of some people who act poorly?), if a person displays poor behavior then I think less of that person - unless it comes directly from their belief system, then it would reflect their faith.

I love the Catholic Faith because it is true, regardless of how other Catholics behave.

 

[cheddarsox]

I love the Catholic Faith because it is true, regardless of how other Catholics behave.

I understand. I likewise hold my faith because it is true. I see the fruits and merits of it in my own life. It is harder for me to be so secure concerning other faiths, because I do not know them intimately, believe them and live them, so, right or wrong…my views are affected by the behavior of their adherents, especially those who are clearly well schooled, active and devoted to their faith.

That may well be a flaw I need to work on.

cheddar

 

[tundramom]

I haven’t read the entire thread, but I don’t find it uncharitable to point out the differences in religions. Especially in this forum. I, as an ex-Mormon, have a right and an obligation to expose what I was taught and the lies that kept me from being with God. I have an obligation to those who don’t know what Mormonism teaches to show them what those things are. they won’t get them from the church members until they have already become a member. It is my obligation to Jesus to stand up for HIS gospel and to point out when others, who blaspheme His holy name by their doctrines are wrong.

in Christ
Steph

 

[E.E.N.S]

"E.E.N.S.:

I love the Catholic Faith because it is true,…

I likewise hold my faith because it is true.

We can’t* both* be right.

 

[cheddarsox]

We can’t* both* be right.

But we can both be civil! We’ve already proved that!

Now…on with the show…lol

 

[E.E.N.S]

But we can both be civil! We’ve already proved that!

Now…on with the show…lol

Indeed.

 

[setter]

I participate on several religious forums, and I agree that here, rather than discuss issues, there does seem to be a tendency to discuss “people”.

I’ve had people ask my opinion, then ignore my comments because they were getting too close to the bone, and have had people outright lie, posting that I said, this or that on another thread…when I wasn’t even involved in the thread they were speaking of.

The tendency does seem to be…ask a question…but when a Non Catholic says something that appears too sensible, or is hard to refute with the standard answers…change the subject, or find unrelated ways to malign the Non Catholic poster. This is a pattern on the Non Catholic forum. Not just something that happens against myself, not something that only one person does.

To some people, everything is a fight. They feel the need to defend their faith, even when it is not being attacked.

cheddar

I have had this same experience from folks on this forum who identify themselves as Catholics.

 

[Writer]

You be the judge,

In case nobody figured this out, I HAVE been to many LDS services. Anybody can put a statue of Christ at the head of a church but that does not mean that is where all the hearts and minds are focused. Christ is most certainly NOT absent (ok - eucharist excepted). Just becasue they do not have statues and a large cross with Jesus portrayed hanging from it most certainly does not mean that “Christ is completely absent” as you say. Do we really need all the “props” at the front of the church (in the form of statues etc) in order to worship Crist? I think not. If one cannot worship Christ in his/her own heart ~without~ props then I would be so bold as to say that their faith is not made of much faith at all.

Anne

Originally Posted by Victorious I’m tempted to ask where you learned to give yourself virtuous airs over people who like pictures and statues in church; but since the answer seems obvious, I won’t. Are you aware you are being led into the ancient heresy of iconoclasm, which was put to bed at the second Council of Nicaea in 787? It appears as though you are being led into other things as well, including the minimization of the Eucharist. Less time at Mormon services and more time in front of the Blessed Sacrament would seem to be indicated.

Are YOU aware that you have NO IDEA who I am and therefore have NO RIGHT to judge me as having “virtuous airs” as you so put it? I was merely partaking in a discussion and pointing out a possible point of view. How dare you judge me? With Catholics like YOU I would much rather be in a Mormon service than sit next to you anywhere. I think I will call those missionaries right now - thanks so much for giving me the incentive. You can now tell all your friends (oh yes - and your confeesor) that you helped a struggling Catholic find their way to the LDS church.

Anne

As I come from a family of religious artists, I’m tempted to answer your concerns, except that they appear to be off-topic to the discussion at hand. That seems like an engaging start to a new thread on the nature and purpose of religious art…

 

[setter]

I think that part of the issue (as I have mentioned in one or two posts) is that many Catholics are more worried about the letter of the law than of the spirit of the law. We’re all sinners, and it is important that we hold our own accountable for their lack of charity (an extremely important virtue). Whether or not they heed our accountability, that is their decision. I know I have been demeaning a few times, but as most on this forum, I feel that those who are being attacked by most need defending (not just posters, but those who threads are about).

It has been my forum experience that when CA forum members chastise the orthodox adherence to the “letter of the law” presentation of Catholic teaching, in matters of faith and morals, as “more worried about the letter of the law than of the spirit of the law”, that flags should go up. This is most often code for dissent from established Church teaching, and cries of being insensitive, rigid, lacking in charity and compassion, …give Catholicism a bad name. Some folks have a real difficulty balancing and accepting the truth in presented in true charity.

 

[rmcmullan]

I haven’t read the entire thread, but I don’t find it uncharitable to point out the differences in religions. Especially in this forum. I, as an ex-Mormon, have a right and an obligation to expose what I was taught and the lies that kept me from being with God. I have an obligation to those who don’t know what Mormonism teaches to show them what those things are. they won’t get them from the church members until they have already become a member. It is my obligation to Jesus to stand up for HIS gospel and to point out when others, who blaspheme His holy name by their doctrines are wrong.

in Christ
Steph

Huh? Is everybody okay with this? No red flags?

I don’t mind that you’re sure the Catholic Church is the alpha and omega, that’s fine. But you’re not showing much respect for anyone who believes the same thing if it’s a different church.

 

[PaulDupre]

Huh? Is everybody okay with this? No red flags?

I don’t mind that you’re sure the Catholic Church is the alpha and omega, that’s fine. But you’re not showing much respect for anyone who believes the same thing if it’s a different church.

I, as a former Mormon, find no similarity whatsoever between Mormonism and Catholicism. No Mormon believes the same things I do as a Catholic.

Paul

 

[tundramom]

Huh? Is everybody okay with this? No red flags?

I don’t mind that you’re sure the Catholic Church is the alpha and omega, that’s fine. But you’re not showing much respect for anyone who believes the same thing if it’s a different church.

rmcmullan,
I never said that the Catholic Church is the “alpha” and “omega”. That is reserved for Jesus Himself. I don’t have a problem with individual Mormons, although I believe them to be sincerely deceived. My problem is with Mormonism.

Five generations of my family on both sides have been deceived by the fraudulent claims of Joseph Smith. Hundreds in my family have missed the boat on who Jesus really is. I can be respectful of them as persons(that is if they were willing to speak with me, which they are not since I left Mormonism), but I will not be respectful of Joseph Smith or his lies. He led literally millions into a false belief system that keeps them from knowing Jesus.

in Christ
Steph

 

[rmcmullan]

We both believe that our church is alpha & omega. I was referring to a person’s faith. When your’re discussing other people’s faith you should show them something close to the respect that you would like your shown toyour own. It’s just the Golden rule. If tundramom feels like it’s her duty to expose the falsity of other religions, uh, well, she’s going to have a hard time showing it any respect. It’s sort of like “love the sinner, hate the sin”. Show repsect to the person who holds the belief but not the belief.

 

[tundramom]

no. Jesus IS the ALPHA and OMEGA. Not a church. As I stated, I do respect the person. But I cannot give any respect for a man (Joseph Smith) who leads so many away from Jesus.

in Christ
Steph

 

[tundramom]

rmcmullan,
I see by your profile that you are a Mormon. Please point out in any thread that I have posted where I have misrepresented Mormon beliefs. In what way have I misrepresented what it is that Mormons believe and teach.

in Christ
Steph

 

[rmcmullan]

rmcmullan,
I see by your profile that you are a Mormon. Please point out in any thread that I have posted where I have misrepresented Mormon beliefs. In what way have I misrepresented what it is that Mormons believe and teach.

in Christ
Steph

I didn’t think that was the point. I thought the point was whether or not we can discuss our differences in a respectful way.

For example, if someone says “[people] been deceived by the fraudulent claims of Joseph Smith” that does not show much respect for Joseph Smith. And it’s more of a conclusion than an argument. If you want to make some kind of an argument that his teachings lead devout believers of Christ into error you could maybe site some specific errors and the damage that was done. If you want to say “JS was a womanizing con man”, at least that is more specific but not so respectful. If you want to say, “I have studied carefully what JS has to say and have come to the conclusion that he was a womanizing con man” that, at least IMHO, is okay because you are only describing your belief or conclusion and not claiming it as a universal truth, only a personal one.

How about a few other examples? Let’s pick something less controversial. Let’s say, eating meat on Fridays.

Person A posts “I have been abstaining from meat on Fridays and it has brought me closer to the Lord”. Even if I vigorously disagreed with this issue, I would not harass this person.

Person B posts “The Catholic Church has told me not to eat on Friday and I will follow their instruction”. Again, I probably wouldn’t harass that person much.

Person C posts “The Catholic Church has told me not to eat meat on Fridays and has given a list of reasons why. I have gone over that list and I okay with it.” This person I might want to engage. They’re looking for understanding and debate is good for that. I know Catholics don’t abstain from meat on Fridays anymore like when I was a kid but they did have good reasons for it and understanding those reasons might help me understand God. There is a thread on this forum on eating meat and I think it’s a good topic although the vegetarian point of view is not getting much support. It’s part of holding life sacred and that’s a principle we want to promote. A discussion of this could even be inspiring.

Person D posts “I’m going to eat meat any way”. This person could be persuaded perhaps if they understood the principle involved. Or maybe they could support the principle without supporting the practise. Again, a discussion of what & why could be good.

Person E posts “You Catholics are all going to heck!” No response is necessary.

Now when you get all these people in on the same thread, it can get hectic and person E can make life tough for the other people.

 

[PaulDupre]

For example, if someone says “[people] been deceived by the fraudulent claims of Joseph Smith” that does not show much respect for Joseph Smith. And it’s more of a conclusion than an argument. If you want to make some kind of an argument that his teachings lead devout believers of Christ into error you could maybe site some specific errors and the damage that was done. If you want to say “JS was a womanizing con man”, at least that is more specific but not so respectful.

Should we respect Warren Jeffs? He and Joseph Smith are exactly the same. Both passed themselves off as prophets to gain power, wealth and sex. Both used their prophetic status to intimidate and threaten young girls with damnation unless those girls submitted to their lusts. Joseph was worse than Warren Jeffs in one regard - I never read that Warren Jeffs stole the wives of other men.

There is no virtue in showing respect to evil men.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

For example, if someone says “[people] been deceived by the fraudulent claims of Joseph Smith” that does not show much respect for Joseph Smith. And it’s more of a conclusion than an argument. If you want to make some kind of an argument that his teachings lead devout believers of Christ into error you could maybe site some specific errors and the damage that was done. If you want to say “JS was a womanizing con man”, at least that is more specific but not so respectful.

Should we respect Warren Jeffs? He and Joseph Smith are exactly the same. Both passed themselves off as prophets to gain power, wealth and sex. Both used their prophetic status to intimidate and threaten young girls with damnation unless those girls submitted to their lusts. Joseph was worse than Warren Jeffs in one regard - I never read that Warren Jeffs stole the wives of other men.

There is no virtue in showing respect to evil men.

Paul

 

[tundramom]

Amen Paul!

One exception I would have is that if you listen to broadcasts by Warren Jeffs, they are almost word for word the same as what Brigham Young preached.

in Christ
Steph