Enough is enough

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What I’d really like to see is a list of liturgical abuses

with the name of the (most current) document(s), the chapter and section number that supports that it is an abuse given for each abuse on the list.

What cannot be on this list are things we dislike in the liturgy, things we wish to be improved. For instance we cannot list

Clapping (unless we can prove it disruptive to the Mass)

Hymns which we thing are banal (unless the lyrics actually contradict Catholic Doctrine, we just have to bear them for now)

Communion in the hand in countries which have the Indult.

Etc. So I am going to start a new thread.
 
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deogratias:
What I’d really like to see is a list of liturgical abuses

with the name of the (most current) document(s), the chapter and section number that supports that it is an abuse given for each abuse on the list.

What cannot be on this list are things we dislike in the liturgy, things we wish to be improved. For instance we cannot list

Clapping (unless we can prove it disruptive to the Mass)

Hymns which we thing are banal (unless the lyrics actually contradict Catholic Doctrine, we just have to bear them for now)

Communion in the hand in countries which have the Indult.

Etc. So I am going to start a new thread.
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Read Mass Confusion by James (aka Jimmy) Akin. It’s all there.
–Ann
 
So everyone should go buy a book? (I’m sure the Akin family would like that:D

Is this now current , i.e. in accordance with the new GIRM?

Ann, part of my goal is to compose the list.

Another, once it is done and accurate is to urge the moderators to review and authenticate its accuracy and then to post it as a sticky.

The forum is young and yet the same questions come up over and over again. When they do, people jump in and give their opinions and sometimes quote long paragraphs from the references (which is not exactly in keeping with forum rules).
I believe an alphabetical list of actual abuses and documentation to support it would be most helpful to us all.

Another is to help folks with their apologetic skills by learning that opinions, feelings, emotions, and preferences do not always mean anything as far as liturgical abuse. It is fine to discuss an abuse but it isn’t enough.

Another is to teach people to read the documents the Church puts out and to be able to see what documents (including the CCC) say and whether something really is an abuse or just a preference.

Then having the list and the documentation to reference, they have a better understanding and the tools should they actually want to approach their priests or bishops about it.

I have already started the thread. Thanks for your suggestion though it won’t meet my goal here on the forum.
 
I put # 1–I go to Traditional Latin Mass… only thing better would be a Missal pre-changes (one from the 40s), but the little changes in the typical Mass from then until 62 was not significant… still too bad that there is no '40s missal appoved, though…
 
How can I report abuses to my Bishop when he condones them ?

Yes you guessed it, Cardinal Roger Mahony, Archdiocese of Los Angeles, no way it gets anywhere but the round file box.

I like the idea of a Catholic Answers compliance form to send directly to Rome.

james
 
Catholic4aReasn said:
There are liturgical abuses at my parish as well. The priests add their own little things during the prayers, the priest leaves the sanctuary during the sign of peace, lay people giving homilies, etc. It’s not possible that the priests and liturgical minister are not aware of liturgical abuses is it?

***What keeps me at my parish is the activity. I’ve never attended a Catholic Church that had so many ways to get involved. We have tons of bible studies and prayer groups. Also, I’ve never heard unorthodox teaching, which would certainly cause me to open my big mouth! :tsktsk: ***

***I’ve come to believe that the perfect Catholic Church does not exist. If you know of one near Appleton, WI please let me know. 🙂 ***
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We have one in Sterling Heights, MI. Want to move?
 
How can I report abuses to my Bishop when he condones them ?

Yes you guessed it, Cardinal Roger Mahony, Archdiocese of Los Angeles, no way it gets anywhere but the round file box.
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My suggestion would be to:
  1. Find like-minded people and compose a letter with signatures from all of you.
  2. Send this to the pastor. If/when this fails,
  3. Follow the same action with the Cardinal (and date both letters). If/When you see no action,
  4. Write the papal nuncio.
 
im not saying people should give up, we never should. but im starting to think that no matter what we do the church is on a downhill slope and isnt gonna stop until the end of the world. and right now thats the only thing that seems to me can be a solution.
 
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demolitionman65:
My suggestion would be to:
  1. Find like-minded people and compose a letter with signatures from all of you.
  2. Send this to the pastor. If/when this fails,
  3. Follow the same action with the Cardinal (and date both letters). If/When you see no action,
  4. Write the papal nuncio.
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Just a suggestion:

Kill more birds with the slingshot:
  1. In writing to your pastor, (being civl, knowledgable and brief )cite the problem and the GIRM you believe is not being properly observed.Often this can be done by asking the question: i.e., Fr. According to what I understand in the GIRM citation, such and so is not being handled as I understand it. Am I correct in this? If not, can you explain why.
  2. You will either get a response or none. If not happy, send a letter in writing to the bishop of your region, together with a copy of the first letter explaining why you are taking the matter up beyond your pastor. Send a copy of this to the ordinary of your diocese, and a blind copy to the nuncio.
  3. If the above fails send a copy of all correspondence to the proper dicastery at the Vatican and let them know that you have not been responded to, or not properly responded to and ask their assistance.
 
I empathise with all who have major problems in their parishes, but I am concerned that some people may complain loud and long about personal irritants and dishearten already overworked good priests. My husband is retired but a good many years younger than our priest who covers 4 rural parishes and has a college chaplaincy and a few other diocesan duties. Now we hear that the only other priest in the area has been reassigned with no replacement. How long can the man continue to dash from parish to parish in good spirits? I want to help him,not dishearten him.
 
I have witnessed our Holy Thursday ceremony turn into a coctail party since the Liturgical coordinator prepared far to many chalices and therefore was left with way too much Precious Blood."
“The Liturgical coordinator” prepared the chalices! What is the Priest doing? I must live in a backwoods area, for only the Priest prepares the Chalices here!

It was said that a female Liturgical Coordinator was CHANGING THE LITURGY. If the Mass being said was TLM this wouldn’t happen! Just another example of the dilution of the Mass by misreading Vatican II.
 
I am a bit tired of some of our priests, as well as the complete inability for 90% of the altar servers to do anything right at all. I think my personal favorite incident was two years ago, at a Christmas Mass, there were a few chalices full of wine left over. I happened to be sitting right behind the Eucharistic ministers (last seats in the house, how we got them, I don’t know). One of them knocked back two chalices full like they were shots. I swear, this guy was getting tipsy of the Consecrated Blood, quite rediculous (not to mention disrespectful).

Eamon
 
Stop complaining about the abuses in the local parish church. Instead go to a church where the beliefs, laws and regulations of the Catholic Church are being followed. Look for a good church and attend there. Go to a different Catholic church every Sunday, if necessary.

If one finds, after a thorough search of all of the churches with in a reasonable distance (1 hour to 1 1/2 hour drive), that there are no good churches, pick the least bad one.

It is illegal for a laymen to preach the sermon. If that is happening at ones local church, why would one even bothering showing up at church until the sermon is finished?

Our Sunday obligation requires that we hear the 3 principal parts of the Mass.* The 3 principal parts of the Mass are the Offertory, Consecration, and Communion. The Communion means the priest’s communion. This is called the Liturgy of the Eucharist, also known as the Mass of the Faithful. We are not obliged to attend before the Offertory or after the priest’s communion.

Stop complaining because it is useless. Instead, go where the beliefs, laws, and regulations of the Catholic Church are respected. Or, if one still insists, attend at the local church, but only the part of the “Mass” necessary to fulfill your Sunday obligation.

*Our Sunday obligation under pain of mortal sin is to attend the Mass of the Faithful. If one misses the Offertory one has come late, and if one has leaves before the Communion, one has left early. If one misses 1 of the 3 principal parts of the Mass, one has still fulfilled his Sunday Obligation, but does commit a venial sin because he has come late or left early.
 
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karisue:
I have a new pastor who has outlined in his first month the changes that needed to be made to get in compliance with the GIRM. He is definitely a NO guy, which is okay w/ me – he preaches, has started to shape up the music, has done away w/ CLOW, etc. It’s sooo great!

Those of you who have less than orthodox pastors, PRAY for your PARISH! It works, God answers prayer. My parish is living proof.

Praise God!
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Oh dear! CLOW is a bad thing? Is that where the children go off to hear an easier version of the gospel/homily?

I’m learning so much here…
 
Chris Jacobsen:
Stop complaining because it is useless.
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I disagree. We should not whine and complain, but instead act. This is the basis behind the document Redemptionis Sacramentum. The faithful have a **right **to attend proper Mass. Our Lord deserves a reverent Mass.

I would argue that most of the faithful (and some priests) do not understand the gravity of some of these issues. They may not know what is licit and what is not.

Don’t get me wrong; I bounce from parish to parish in search of a properly celebrated Mass, as well. However, that will only serve my needs. I believe that those of us who are aware of these problems need to take an active role in correcting them. The situation will worsen if we remain passive.
 
I think that what we need is a Better Business Bureau for parishes.
Some people want an “Anything Goes” parish, some want am “EWTN Holy Mass”

How about a guide to find what one needs?
 
Go to a different church. I had to . It is great !!
This really proves one thing. The Catholic Church in the west is not as large as numbers indicate. It will be smaller in the near future if the Holy Father institutes a real reform of the NO.

There are two things the modernists do not want:
  1. the TLM
  2. any chance of reunification of east and west.
They make their living out of being prot. catholics.
 
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