Enough is enough

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BayCityRickL:
It’s nice that some of you seem to have nice, orthodox, functional dioceses. I feel that I am in the Diocese of Bizarro.My pastor refused to have a bible study group, OK?
Now follow this: He sent out an appeal for the CSA diocesan collection (catholic services appeal). This money supports the various diocesan ministries, one of which is to have adult formation in the parishes…IN TEN YEARS, we may have bible study. So, we’re contributing good money to change the priest’s mind about bible study. What a waste of money. Why doesn’t this priest just wake up and join in, rather than digging in his heals? DUH.Yes, this is offensive, but so is the priest.
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It hardly requires permission of the Pastor to have a Bible Study. We are blessed in our parish to have many that are “authorized.” However over the years we have often met in homes as small groups to study the Scriptures. There are enough excellent Catholic materials available that one need not worry about weird private interprtetations if they are used along with a good annotated Bible. We still have some who are “uncomfortable” if “Father” isn’t present to monitor the meeting. I can only comment that there are some priests who themselves need to be monitored, so “Father” is no guarantee of orthodoxy
 
Chris Jacobsen:
Stop complaining about the abuses in the local parish church. Instead go to a church where the beliefs, laws and regulations of the Catholic Church are being followed. Look for a good church and attend there. Go to a different Catholic church every Sunday, if necessary.

Our Sunday obligation requires that we hear the 3 principal parts of the Mass.* The 3 principal parts of the Mass are the Offertory, Consecration, and Communion. The Communion means the priest’s communion. This is called the Liturgy of the Eucharist, also known as the Mass of the Faithful. We are not obliged to attend before the Offertory or after the priest’s communion.

*Our Sunday obligation under pain of mortal sin is to attend the Mass of the Faithful. If one misses the Offertory one has come late, and if one has leaves before the Communion, one has left early. If one misses 1 of the 3 principal parts of the Mass, one has still fulfilled his Sunday Obligation, but does commit a venial sin because he has come late or left early.
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Evidently you haven’t kept up with orthodox teaching. Sunday Mass obligation requires the three parts you have mentioned as it was taught 45 years ago. It has long since been taught that the obligation is met only if one participates in the Liturgy of The Word as well as The Liturgy of the Eucharist. Only then have you properly attended Mass. Of course there are always those who are merely present, but not participating. I can’t comment on the effectiveness of that as far as meeting the obligation goes.
 
I don’t have the Mass “presented” to me.

I am a full and active participant in the Celebration and the only way I might feel that it’s an “presentation” is by NOT participating thereby becoming a spectator, or, engage in other activities whilst the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is in progress.

I believe if each of us who profess to be Catholic took the liturgical role assigned to us as a worshipping, thanksgiving assembly were to participate fully and enthusiastically, this type of thread would not exist.
 
Catholic Church is the Universal Church… It existed for almost 2000- years yet still many problems arises. I can share some problems that i can see:
  1. Some priests etc. doesnt teach the cathechism in the people. We know that Cathechism is the foundation of our church.
  2. Some parishes are acquiring funds in business manner (Canvassing for easter Angels, etc). Selling religious items are okay.
  3. They are very politicised.
  4. They are focusing only on celebrating the mass which is good but the community also need spiritual guidance and other things like weekly confessions or even daily confession.
  5. Some are not following simple things like gestures and postures. So people dont even know these right gestures and postures.
  6. Some doesnt teach the divinity of the Eucharist, the Body and Precious Blood present in the Tabernacle and during the mass.
  7. Some are not so good model to others. i saw a priest smoking after he celebrated the mass.
  8. …many more
These is what i can share… And i watch the Fr. Corapi’s show on EWTN and he said the “the priests and bishops are the one who must be guilty on what is happening in the world” - very humble thing to accept by a priest…
Let us pray for our priests and bishops and to our Holy Father that we will be united again in Glorifying and Worshipping GOD.

WE NEED MORE PRAYER!!
 
Appalling I agree, as bad as seeing an empty coke bottle on a side altar obviously desanctified but it was a desecration in my eyes…
 
Now that I go to the Indult Latin mass I’m extremely happy. I’m all about reverence and evidently in my diocese the only way I’m going to have it is if I go to an Indult Latin mass. Thank goodness there’s at least one decent church here.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I think that what we need is a Better Business Bureau for parishes.
Some people want an “Anything Goes” parish, some want am “EWTN Holy Mass”

How about a guide to find what one needs?
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Cardinal Arinze wrote “Liturgial Norms and Liturgical Piety” that addresses all of the questions and concerns noted here including liturgical dancing, etc. I found it at the site Adoremus Bulletin. www.adoreums.org/0505A.arinze.html

Really worthwhile to read and if your parish has gone astray would be a good article to send with your letter of concern about liturgical abuses.

Lisa N
 
Must admit that I have heard alot about various liturgical abuses happening since I have been on various boards. It definitely seems to be more of an American thing that anywhere else in the world. I have lived in southern Africa and now live in Ireland and have never come across any of this in any of the Masses I have attended. Our Lord’s Body and Blood have always been treated with the utmost respect and reverence any time I have every been to a Mass.
 
I think the Church has to be cracking down… Alterations can be alright, but when they begin going against Rome, your Church is in trouble.
A guide or something saying Follow these, then maybe a few things such as songs or something as in You have these options to choose from or This is up to your discretion, but we suggest.

If they refuse to follow the Church guidelines, they have no right to be called Catholic.
 
Wow! If only you knew, my friends who voted, what liturgical abuses where going on, you might change your opinion. How often Priests and lay people destroy the liturgy (though, of course, the Sacrifice still takes place) with there nonsense. I would recommend all of you, to read two documents:

INSTRUCTION ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS REGARDING THE COLLABORATION OF THE NON-ORDAINED FAITHFUL IN THE SACRED MINISTRY OF THE PRIEST
and

Redemtionis Sacramentum

This is one of THE biggest problems within the Catholic Church today, and the Church needs us, the faithful, to let these Priests know that we are not going to take it anymore! :nope:

Pray for The Church, Pray for Holy Priests, Pray for our Souls and the Holy Souls in Purgatory!

God bless,

:angel1: :bowdown2: Deus Solus! (God Alone!) :bowdown2: :angel1:

Blessed be Mary, Mother of Christ, whose Visitation to Saint Elizabeth we remember this day.

Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death!
 
First Document:

ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/vexperts/conference.htm

click on “Liturgy and Sacred Music”
then click on “Blessings and Eucharistic Ministers”
then click on the link at the bottom of the page, “Instruction…”
and then you have the document.

you may read it all, if you wish, but for those who just want to get to the good stuff go to:
[Practical Provisions, Article 8:] Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, NOT EUCHARISTIC MINISTER! [go the very end of Article 8 and the last bullet you will see that it clearly states that] the habitual use of lay ministers giving out communion MUST CEASE (Which is, if you havent noticed, the most common abuse)

The second document

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

here are some quotes from Redemtionis incase you dont have time to read the entire thing:

In the Preamble:
[4.] “Certainly the liturgical reform inaugurated by the Council has greatly contributed to a more conscious, active and fruitful participation in the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar on the part of the faithful.”[10] Even so, “shadows are not lacking”.[11] In this regard it is not possible to be silent about the abuses, even quite grave ones, against the nature of the Liturgy and the Sacraments as well as the tradition and the authority of the Church, which in our day not infrequently plague liturgical celebrations in one ecclesial environment or another. In some places the perpetration of liturgical abuses has become almost habitual, a fact which obviously cannot be allowed and must cease :eek: .

[7]Not infrequently, abuses are rooted in a false understanding of liberty…

[9]Finally, abuses are often based on ignorance…

(in other words: we must be charitable when aproaching a Priest about this)

[11.] The Mystery of the Eucharist “is too great for anyone to permit himself to treat it according to his own whim, so that its sacredness and its universal ordering would be obscured”. On the contrary, anyone who acts thus by giving free reign to his own inclinations, even if he is a Priest, injures the substantial unity of the Roman Rite, which ought to be vigorously preserved

Chapter I

THE REGULATION OF THE SACRED LITURGY
  1. Priests
[31][Priests] ought not to detract from the profound meaning of their own ministry by corrupting the liturgical celebration either through alteration or omission, or through arbitrary additions.

(which many Priests, unfortunately, do)

[32.] Let the Parish Priest strive so that the Most Holy Eucharist will be the center of the parish congregation of the faithful; let him work to ensure that Christ’s faithful are nourished through the devout celebration of the Sacraments, and in particular, that they frequently approach the Most Holy Eucharist and the Sacrament of Penance

(Most Priests hardly ever mention confession, the need to go to confession or the great benefits of going frequently)

Chapter II

THE PARTICIPATION OF THE LAY CHRISTIAN FAITHFUL
IN THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION
  1. Active and Conscious Participation
[38.] The constant teaching of the Church on the nature of the Eucharist not only as a meal, but also and pre-eminently as a Sacrifice, is therefore rightly understood to be one of the principal keys to the full participation of all the faithful in so great a Sacrament. For when ‘stripped of its sacrificial meaning, the mystery is understood as if its meaning and importance were simply that of a fraternal banquet’.
 
Chapter III

THE PROPER CELEBRATION OF MASS
  1. The Other Parts of the Mass
[63.] “Within the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, the reading of the Gospel, which is “the high point of the Liturgy of the Word”, is reserved by the Church’s tradition to an ordained minister. Thus it is not permitted for a layperson, even a religious, to proclaim the Gospel reading in the celebration of Holy Mass, nor in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it.

[64.] The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself, “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson. In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate”.

[72.] It is appropriate “that each one give the sign of peace only to those who are nearest and in a sober manner”. “The Priest may give the sign of peace to the ministers but always remains within the sanctuary, so as not to disturb the celebration.
 
Chapter IV

HOLY COMMUNION
  1. The distribution of Holy Communion
[88.] The faithful should normally receive sacramental Communion of the Eucharist during Mass itself, at the moment laid down by the rite of celebration, that is to say, just after the Priest celebrant’s Communion. It is the Priest celebrant’s responsibility to minister Communion, perhaps :eek: assisted by other Priests or Deacons; and he should not resume the Mass until after the Communion of the faithful is concluded. Only when there is a necessity may extraordinary ministers assist the Priest celebrant in accordance with the norm of law.

[93.] The Communion-plate for the Communion of the faithful should be retained, so as to avoid the danger of the sacred host or some fragment of it falling.

(which most Churches, at least where I live, dont do)

Chapter VI

THE RESERVATION OF THE MOST HOLY EUCHARIST
AND EUCHARISTIC WORSHIP OUTSIDE MASS
  1. The Reservation of the Most Holy Eucharist
[132.] No one may carry the Most Holy Eucharist to his or her home, or to any other place contrary to the norm of law.

(you will often hear of “Eucharistic Ministers” doing this)

Chapter VII

EXTRAORDINARY FUNCTIONS
OF LAY FAITHFUL

[151.] Only out of true necessity is there to be recourse to the assistance of extraordinary ministers in the celebration of the Liturgy. Such recourse is not intended for the sake of a fuller participation of the laity but rather, by its very nature, is supplementary and provisional. Furthermore, when recourse is had out of necessity to the functions of extraordinary ministers, special urgent prayers of intercession should be multiplied that the Lord may soon send a Priest for the service of the community and raise up an abundance of vocations to sacred Orders.
If your local parishes dont do these then count you are truly blessed, but for most of us, we must face these liturgical abuses every Mass.

[152.] These purely supplementary functions must not be an occasion for disfiguring the very ministry of Priests, in such a way that the latter neglect the celebration of Holy Mass for the people for whom they are responsible, or their personal care of the sick, or the baptism of children, or assistance at weddings or the celebration of Christian funerals, matters which pertain in the first place to Priests assisted by Deacons. It must therefore never be the case that in parishes Priests alternate indiscriminately in shifts of pastoral service with Deacons or laypersons, thus confusing what is specific to each.

[153.] Furthermore, it is never licit for laypersons to assume the role or the vesture of a Priest or a Deacon or other clothing similar to such vesture.
  1. The Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion
[154.] As has already been recalled, “the only minister who can confect the Sacrament of the Eucharist in persona Christi is a validly ordained Priest”. Hence the name “minister of the Eucharist” belongs properly to the Priest alone.

[156.] This function is to be understood strictly according to the name by which it is known, that is to say, that of extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, and not “special minister of Holy Communion” nor “extraordinary minister of the Eucharist” nor “special minister of the Eucharist”, by which names the meaning of this function is unnecessarily and improperly broadened.

[158.] Indeed, the extraordinary minister of Holy Communion may administer Communion only when the Priest and Deacon are lacking, when the Priest is prevented by weakness or advanced age or some other genuine reason, or when the number of faithful coming to Communion is so great that the very celebration of Mass would be unduly prolonged. This, however, is to be understood in such a way that a brief prolongation, considering the circumstances and culture of the place, is not at all a sufficient reason :eek: .

(which is further explained in the first Document “Instruction…” as I noted earlier)

Those are probebly the key statements made, however reading the whole document would be a good thing to do.

God bless
 
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PaxVobis1331:
Wow! If only you knew, my friends who voted, what liturgical abuses where going on, you might change your opinion.
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Do not assume ignorance because the poll does not support you. For myself, I am aware of the state of the Church. I just do not agree with all the doom and gloom ranting that goes on against the Mass. Abuses exists, but they are not significant in number or severity when balanced against the Faith we have.
 
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pnewton:
Do not assume ignorance because the poll does not support you. For myself, I am aware of the state of the Church. I just do not agree with all the doom and gloom ranting that goes on against the Mass. Abuses exists, but they are not significant in number or severity when balanced against the Faith we have.
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How do you know that they are not significant in number.
From what I have read here and on other boards, they are. On another board I am on, they had pictures from a mass at Villanova.
Glass vessels, hosts in baskets, students grabbing their own.
There are plenty of abuses. People are just learning what they are and beginning to report them.
Hopefully things will change.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
How do you know that they are not significant in number.
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Let me expand and clarify what I was saying (obvious one abuse in the world is one too many).

The initial poll and post was that abuses were so rampant that we need to “rise up.” Yet the poll was overwhelming positive in the number of people who are happy or mostly happy. PV 1331 thought this might be because we that voted do not know what is going on.

The CA forum members, on the whole, are rather informed and orthodox. We are also, in the mainstream satisified with the liturgy, as indicated by this poll. A more logical conclusion than we just do not know enough is, that “abuses exists, but they are not significant in number or severity when balanced against the Faith we have”, to cause us to be dissatisfied with our liturgy. I was referring to the reason behind the poll numbers, not trying to make a bare absolute statement, applicable everywhere.
 
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pnewton:
The initial poll and post was that abuses were so rampant that we need to “rise up.” Yet the poll was overwhelming positive in the number of people who are happy or mostly happy. PV 1331 thought this might be because we that voted do not know what is going on.

The CA forum members, on the whole, are rather informed and orthodox. We are also, in the mainstream satisified with the liturgy, as indicated by this poll. A more logical conclusion than we just do not know enough is, that “abuses exists, but they are not significant in number or severity when balanced against the Faith we have”, to cause us to be dissatisfied with our liturgy. I was referring to the reason behind the poll numbers, not trying to make a bare absolute statement, applicable everywhere.
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Or maybe the whole thing comes down to the word, “Your” in the title.
If you had asked me this a year ago, when I was at my last abuse filled parish or 5 years ago when I was at my equally abuse filled parish, I would have said that I was not happy.
It took me time and I found a great Deep Catholic parish.
I love my parish, now.
You have done enough reading here to know that most of the cases for abuse come in another parish.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Or maybe the whole thing comes down to the word, “Your” in the title.
…You have done enough reading here to know that most of the cases for abuse come in another parish.
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Two good observations. The way a question is worded can impact the results. Your last comment I find very interesting and I admit it escaped observation by me. Thank you for bringing it up. I will watch for this trend in the future.
 
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pnewton:
Two good observations. The way a question is worded can impact the results. Your last comment I find very interesting and I admit it escaped observation by me. Thank you for bringing it up. I will watch for this trend in the future.
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Phillip, you are a Gentleman!
God Bless You!
 
I’m mostly happy. I cringe from time to time. For example, when “Lamb of God” is substituted for “Prince of Peace” or “Lord of Lords.” Grrrrrrr. Why aren’t the words actually written and approved by the Church satisfactory for some folks?

Gospel skits on Passion Sunday make me cringe too. I simply look downward at my Roman Missal and read what is supposed to be read versus what is poorly “played” in skit before me.

Washing women’s feet on Holy Thursday is also annoying. I don’t see why priests find they must change the liturgy to suit their own vision. If the adaptation is good liturgy, then propose it to the Holy See for his recognitio. Until you recieve the Holy See’s recognitio, follow the rubrics.
 
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