Enquirers log stardate 080809

[Guyonthestreet]

I believe I will need to be baptised into the christian community in order to be part of God’s family on earth.

I believe Christ instituted the Eucharist to aid us on our way to eternal life, and He is really present in the bread and wine.

I believe Mary is the Mother of God.

I do not believe the catholic church as it exists today is the church established by Christ on earth.

I do believe Christ wanted one church, but what that church is I do not know. Right now, I do not believe it can be the catholic church as claimed.

If the catholic church does contain the fullness of truth, that truth is simpler that the church pretends. That truth probably lies somewhere close to the way the early church fathers and the desert fathers and the early communities lived their lives and practiced their faith.

Thats as far as Ive got so far

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Oh, one more thing, I’m an idiot

Mods, this thread was supposed to be in the Non Catholic forum. Apologies.

 

[Mel_Stones]

The Catholic Church has an unbroken line from Christ to Pope Benedict XVI (today’s Pope). There are uncountable (okay I admit that is an exaggeration but my point is really large number of) misconceptions about the Catholic Church. The laws of the Church do not claim to be perfect.

Do you not believe the Catholic Church can trace its roots unbroken back to the apostles because it is that simple?

 

[Guyonthestreet]

The laws of the Church do not claim to be perfect.

I think you’ll find they do. Theyre imposed on all catholics and you dare not question them.

Do you not believe the Catholic Church can trace its roots unbroken back to the apostles because it is that simple?

I believe there was a church started by Christ. I dont think that it is the catholic church of today. Being able to prove you have a lineage that goes back to Peter proves you have a lineage that goes back to Peter. It does not prove that all what the catholic church has instituted in the intervening years is correct.

The Orthodox have unbroken lineage that goes back to the first apostles.

That kind of arguement doesnt really get us anywhere. But, the Orthodox dont appear to have invested heavily in developing doctrines and explaining things that are ultimatly unexplainable - the eucharist for example. The orthodox does seem to be more, er, orthodox than the catholic church.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I believe Christ instituted the Eucharist to aid us on our way to eternal life, and He is really present in the bread and wine.

As Catholics, we believe that after the words of consecration, spoken by the priest that the bread and wind no longer exist, only the “appearance” of bread and wine. We believe that through the miracle of transubstantiation, the bread and wine are actually changed into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus, but are in true fact, bread and wine no longer.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I believe there was a church started by Christ. I dont think that it is the catholic church of today. Being able to prove you have a lineage that goes back to Peter proves you have a lineage that goes back to Peter. It does not prove that all what the catholic church has instituted in the intervening years is correct.
T .

If we believe in Jesus, we must also believe that what he said is true. He did say the following in Matthew 16:18-20, "I for my part declare to you , you are Rock and upon this rock, I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven. Whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

We call this the power of the keys. Certainly, if Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, which he is, then what he said must always be true. We can and do show an unbroken line of popes back to Peter who was the first Pope and bishop of Rome. Today the man elected pope, as bishop of Rome, fills the shoes of Peter. Unbroken, undiluted, still under the guidance of the Holy Spirit on matters of faith and morals only.

 

[kalt]

I believe I will need to be baptised into the christian community in order to be part of God’s family on earth.

I believe Christ instituted the Eucharist to aid us on our way to eternal life, and He is really present in the bread and wine.

I believe Mary is the Mother of God.

I do not believe the catholic church as it exists today is the church established by Christ on earth.

I do believe Christ wanted one church, but what that church is I do not know. Right now, I do not believe it can be the catholic church as claimed.

If the catholic church does contain the fullness of truth, that truth is simpler that the church pretends. That truth probably lies somewhere close to the way the early church fathers and the desert fathers and the early communities lived their lives and practiced their faith.

Thats as far as Ive got so far

And the saga continues.

 

[SSTeacher]

I believe I will need to be baptized into the Christian community in order to be part of God’s family on earth

I agree.

I believe Christ instituted the Eucharist to aid us on our way to eternal life, and He is really present in the bread and wine.

I also believe that.

I believe Mary is the Mother of God.

So do I.

I do not believe the Catholic Church as it exists today is the church established by Christ on earth.

Same here.

I do believe Christ wanted one church, but what that church is I do not know.

I believe I can truthfully assert that I do know which Church it is.

Right now, I do not believe it can be the Catholic Church as claimed.

Neither do I.

If the Catholic Church does contain the fullness of truth, that truth is simpler that the church pretends. That truth probably lies somewhere close to the way the early church fathers and the desert fathers and the early communities lived their lives and practiced their faith.

I believe that the fullness of truth lies waiting for me to discover within Holy Orthodoxy.

That’s as far as I’ve got so far

I’m a seeker with questions, also. We appear to have much in common.

Sincerely,
Mick

 

[ferdie]

I believe I will need to be baptised into the christian community in order to be part of God’s family on earth.

I believe Christ instituted the Eucharist to aid us on our way to eternal life, and He is really present in the bread and wine.
Ask and it will be given, seek and you will find, knock and it will be open to you.
I believe Mary is the Mother of God.

I do not believe the catholic church as it exists today is the church established by Christ on earth.

I do believe Christ wanted one church, but what that church is I do not know. Right now, I do not believe it can be the catholic church as claimed.

If the catholic church does contain the fullness of truth, that truth is simpler that the church pretends. That truth probably lies somewhere close to the way the early church fathers and the desert fathers and the early communities lived their lives and practiced their faith.

Thats as far as Ive got so far

Jesus told his disciples that he was sent and given authority by the Father. Asked yourself, what did our Lord do with that authority when he left the Apostles?

And since you said yourself that you are an idiot (trust me, I’m more of an idiot than you), how would Jesus take care of us idiots when he is gone?

No problem with the smart people, they can use logic and reason to seek their way, but what about us idiots who are easily swayed by different competing doctrines?

Open your heart and pray, humble yourself and trust in God’s wisdom.

 

[ricko]

I think you’ll find they do. Theyre imposed on all catholics and you dare not question them.

I believe there was a church started by Christ. I dont think that it is the catholic church of today. Being able to prove you have a lineage that goes back to Peter proves you have a lineage that goes back to Peter. It does not prove that all what the catholic church has instituted in the intervening years is correct.

The Orthodox have unbroken lineage that goes back to the first apostles.

That kind of arguement doesnt really get us anywhere. But, the Orthodox dont appear to have invested heavily in developing doctrines and explaining things that are ultimatly unexplainable - the eucharist for example. The orthodox does seem to be more, er, orthodox than the catholic church.

Ok. Since you have made that statement about the two churches and appear to have studied both. What is the difference between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

 

[reen12]

I think you’ll find they do. Theyre imposed on all catholics and you dare not question them.

I believe there was a church started by Christ. I dont think that it is the catholic church of today. Being able to prove you have a lineage that goes back to Peter proves you have a lineage that goes back to Peter. It does not prove that all what the catholic church has instituted in the intervening years is correct.

The Orthodox have unbroken lineage that goes back to the first apostles.

That kind of arguement doesnt really get us anywhere. But, the Orthodox dont appear to have invested heavily in developing doctrines and explaining things that are ultimatly unexplainable - the eucharist for example. The orthodox does seem to be more, er, orthodox than the catholic church.

I think you might consider taking a gander at what is referred to
as ‘uncreated light.’ Not a dull paragraph to be found… in this
interesting foray into definitional activity.

First - Orthodoxy quite rightly confronted the Church at Rome,
for Rome’s defining the order of procession within the trinity filioque] -
considering same blasphemy - and yet Orthodoxy then goes on
to accept and defend teachings concerning ‘uncreated light.’

orthodoxfaith.com/spirituality_difference.html

Observations, on uncreated light, from Rome:

newadvent.org/cathen/07301a.htm

reen12 :tiphat:

---------------------------------------------------

I’ve often wondered whether the apple in Eden did not have
speculative activity at it’s core.

 

[reen12]

Guyonthestreet, I’m grateful to you.
It was in composing my reply to your post that I finally understood
why Judaism has little interest in theological definitions,
metaphyscial notions, dogmas, and doctrines -
and is, instead, centered in actions in the here and now -
in the sense of performing the commands mizvot]
given to His chosen people.
*God knew from the very beginning that speculative activity
would be part of the human beings who have their life from Him.
Maybe that’s why the tree in Eden was termed -

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Once start defining…and one edges closer
to this Edenic, arboreal entity?

Best to you, Guyonthestreet, and thank you.

reen12

---

I’ve often wondered whether the apple in Eden did not have
speculative activity at it’s core.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I believe I will need to be baptised into the christian community in order to be part of God’s family on earth.

Not sure​

I believe Christ instituted the Eucharist to aid us on our way to eternal life, and He is really present in the bread and wine.

Maybe the first - not sure about the second​

I believe Mary is the Mother of God.

Could be​

I do not believe the catholic church as it exists today is the church established by Christ on earth.

Pass​

I do believe Christ wanted one church, but what that church is I do not know.

Pass​

Right now, I do not believe it can be the catholic church as claimed.

Pass​

If the catholic church does contain the fullness of truth,

No, definitely not​

that truth is simpler that the church pretends. That truth probably lies somewhere close to the way the early church fathers and the desert fathers and the early communities lived their lives and practiced their faith.

Thats as far as Ive got so far

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I think you might consider taking a gander at what is referred to
as ‘uncreated light.’ Not a dull paragraph to be found… in this
interesting foray into definitional activity.

First - Orthodoxy quite rightly confronted the Church at Rome,
for Rome’s defining the order of procession within the trinity filioque] -
considering same blasphemy - and yet Orthodoxy then goes on
to accept and defend teachings concerning ‘uncreated light.’

orthodoxfaith.com/spirituality_difference.html

Observations, on uncreated light, from Rome:

newadvent.org/cathen/07301a.htm

reen12 :tiphat:

---------------------------------------------------

I’ve often wondered whether the apple in Eden did not have
speculative activity at it’s core.

STM both are in a pickle. Is it possible to pickle an apple ?​

 

[SSTeacher]

Guyonthestreet;5549512:

Regarding the posters here - I’d say yes they’re typical - in the sense that you have people that claim to be Catholic yet their arrogance, ignorance, stupidity and triumphalism because they belong to the club, which somehow engenders the idea they are better than non-Catholics, knows no bounds. It is especially noteworthy that these same posters will never be found on the apologetics forum, liturgy and sacraments forum etc because they know so little about their faith they cannot hold even a decent conversation never mind a debate about matters of faith with someone who actually does, or asks the hard questions. All they can say is ‘‘hey we’re Catholics, we’re the best, you’re going to hell, hahahaha, coz we’re Catholics and you’re not. Oh yeah, and if you weren’t stupid you’d be a Catholic too’’ !!! I paraphrase, but that in a nutshell is their entire contribution to an enquirer because they simply don’t know their faith, they just belong to the club. And somehow they look down on you if you are not a member of the club. And heaven help you if you correct their errors. I don’t mean as in disagreeing with their theology, I mean simply correcting things they say that even the Catholic Church doesn’t !!! These posters translate in real life to the Catholics in name only that live with their partners, contracept, watch pornography, don’t believe in the real presence, abort, rarely go to Mass, never fast, don’t keep holy days of obligation, they drink swear and gamble to excess and so on, but proudly write ‘Ccatholic’’ on their kids school application form, always nod at ‘‘Father’’ and so on.

Equally, and opposite to this first group of ‘‘claimants’’ are posters who say they are Catholic and whose posts are erudite, charitable, they correct gently and always with kindness, they are patient with people like me exploring the faith, and you just know that in real life, they walk the walk, not just talk the talk. I have received pm’s from such people encouraging me to continue to explore the faith, answering questions in detail and great clarity, and always with prayers. These people are great. Their Catholicism is a living breathing faith that manifests itself in every aspect of their daily lives and interactions with others.

In real live, there is a third group, sitting between these two extremes, the cafeteria Catholics.

I was once touring France on my motorcycle. My friend and I got lost, and stopped in a bar in a one horse village to ask for directions. We’d been riding for 16 hours in nonstop rain (we had a ferry to catch the next day and had dallied too much the previous days because of the awesome roads and scenery). The campsite we were looking for was still miles away. The barman, who was also a biker, told us to follow him. He got on his bike and he led us to his house, not the campsite. He gave us his keys, told us to make his place ours, eat, shower and use anything we wanted, and leave the keys under a plant pot outside when we were ready to go. He made up the spare beds, showed us were the dryer was so we could get our kit dried out. He drew a map of much better roads to take to the ferry than the ones we were thinking of using, real good biking roads, and left us some money for fuel. He even set the alarm clock for us !!! And then he just went back to work his night shift !!!

No idea what religion he was, but he did this for no other reason than he was a biker, and so were we, That’s all that mattered. We were fellow knights of the road.

If only the Catholic faith could make that same connection in its adherents to the rest of humanity.

If only.

You’ve proven yourself to be a rude, caustic, stalking game-player on this forum.

I respectfully disagree. I believe Guyonthestreet to be a genuine seeker of truth. And even if I doubted it what reason would I have to insult him? I am never 100% sure of my own motives – there always seems to be some pride or selfishness present. So how can I possibly have the first clue concerning the motives of another? I urge you to give Guyonthestreet the benefit of the doubt.

If anyone still believes (or ever believed) that you ever considered becoming Catholic, they are naive indeed.

I have never disbelieved it. When we who are Christians encounter people who are searching for truth we might do well to remember the injunction given to us by Saint Peter in his first letter to the Church.

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.

Anyone who ever been a seeker of truth knows how the process works. There are changes of focus and changes of direction and changes of priorities. Discomfort of mind is a constant. On some days that discomfort is mild but on other days it is very acute. And on the worst days one simply feels so frustrated as to want to chuck the whole thing and go and get drunk. To observers, of course, this inner turmoil isn’t necessarily apparent. But those who are cautious enough to look carefully may notice the apparent presence of contradictions. This seems to me to be evident in the case of Guyonthestreet. I perceive through his posts that he is wrestling with himself and is uncertain. He isn’t fully confident about which way to go. And so his struggle continues. I submit that he needs a helping hand not a slap in the face.

And the saga plays on.

As does the angry disrespect so characteristic of the immature and hard–hearted religionists which if nothing else at least gives the seeker certainty as to the sort of company to avoid.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye:

 

[kalt]

I respectfully disagree. I believe Guyonthestreet to be a genuine seeker of truth. And even if I doubted it what reason would I have to insult him? I am never 100% sure of my own motives – there always seems to be some pride or selfishness present. So how can I possibly have the first clue concerning the motives of another? I urge you to give Guyonthestreet the benefit of the doubt.

I have never disbelieved it. When we who are Christians encounter people who are searching for truth we might do well to remember the injunction given to us by Saint Peter in his first letter to the Church.

Anyone who ever been a seeker of truth knows how the process works. There are changes of focus and changes of direction and changes of priorities. Discomfort of mind is a constant. On some days that discomfort is mild but on other days it is very acute. And on the worst days one simply feels so frustrated as to want to chuck the whole thing and go and get drunk. To observers, of course, this inner turmoil isn’t necessarily apparent. But those who are cautious enough to look carefully may notice the apparent presence of contradictions. This seems to me to be evident in the case of Guyonthestreet. I perceive through his posts that he is wrestling with himself and is uncertain. He isn’t fully confident about which way to go. And so his struggle continues. I submit that he needs a helping hand not a slap in the face.

As does the angry disrespect so characteristic of the immature and hard–hearted religionists which if nothing else at least gives the seeker certainty as to the sort of company to avoid.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye:

GOTS is constantly posting the reasons he won’t become a Catholic, but then says that he’s still thinking about it. And he’s choosing to post these “thoughts” on a Catholic Site. We weren’t born yesterday. This is a common Net tactic. It’s attention-seeking and baiting combined.

GOTS stalked OTCA for weeks. I agreed with some of what he said, but the stalking was creepy and yet another Net tactic of those who are here to play.

GOTS needs a helping hand all right. I’ll hold the door open so it doesn’t hit him…

Go and get drunk? Now that’s mature.

I’m not hard-hearted. I’m also not naive about how people use Net forums. GOTS isn’t the first I’ve seen play this game, but religion and health boards do seem to attract more than the average number of dishonest posters.

All Catholics are seekers of truth. This is not limited to those who are thinking of finding a new religion.

You started your post with “respectly disagree” and ended it with “immature and hard–hearted religionists”. Seems like you took a detour somewhere mid-thought.

Are these the words on one who is considering becomming a Catholic?

“But, infallibilty requires belief. You have to believe that the pope is infallible. And clearly he’s not because the vast majority of catholics do not follow the churchs infallible teachings.” – GOTS

Aside from the lack of logic in that statement, there is a definite anti-Catholic thought process. Not only is he talking about Catholics’ imprefection in living their faith (a valid observation, though he comes to an illogical conclusion) but he is also speaking out against a fundamental Catholic belief. These aren’t the thoughts of someone who is considering becoming Catholic. These are the words of someone who is here to denounce Catholics and Catholicism.

If you believe GOTS despite the evidence, that’s your choice, your opinion. But pearls, man. Pearls.

 

[SSTeacher]

GOTS is constantly posting the reasons he won’t become a Catholic, but then says that he’s still thinking about it. And he’s choosing to post these “thoughts” on a Catholic Site. We weren’t born yesterday. This is a common Net tactic. It’s attention-seeking and baiting combined.

GOTS stalked OTCA for weeks. I agreed with some of what he said, but the stalking was creepy and yet another Net tactic of those who are here to play.

GOTS needs a helping hand all right. I’ll hold the door open so it doesn’t hit him…

Go and get drunk? Now that’s mature.

I’m not hard-hearted. I’m also not naive about how people use Net forums. GOTS isn’t the first I’ve seen play this game, but religion and health boards do seem to attract more than the average number of dishonest posters.

All Catholics are seekers of truth. This is not limited to those who are thinking of finding a new religion.

If you believe GOTS despite the evidence, that’s your choice, your opinion. But pearls, man. Pearls.

Fair enough. You’ve been on this forum longer than I have and I can’t argue with your greater experience. Nevertheless, I’m going to choose to continue to believe him. It seems to me to be the right thing to do i.e. to give him the benefit of the doubt. We can perhaps agree to disagree.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[kalt]

Fair enough. You’ve been on this forum longer than I have and I can’t argue with your greater experience. Nevertheless, I’m going to choose to continue to believe him. It seems to me to be the right thing to do i.e. to give him the benefit of the doubt. We can perhaps agree to disagree.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[reen12]

STM both are in a pickle. Is it possible to pickle an apple ?​

You write some wondrous posts, Gottle of Geer.

Mayhap a contest is in order [with a jar of pickled apple slices]
…for the most convoluted theological assertion, in any class. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

Maundering, in upstate New York.

reen

---

I’ve often wondered whether the apple in Eden did not have
speculative activity at it’s core.

 

[Reuben_J]

GOTS is constantly posting the reasons he won’t become a Catholic, but then says that he’s still thinking about it. And he’s choosing to post these “thoughts” on a Catholic Site. We weren’t born yesterday. This is a common Net tactic. It’s attention-seeking and baiting combined.

GOTS stalked OTCA for weeks. I agreed with some of what he said, but the stalking was creepy and yet another Net tactic of those who are here to play.

…

It is unfortunate that Christians who come to this forum should employ this type of unChristian tactic. Why have to go through all this? This is unnecessary besides being uncalled for. Conversion through trickery and dubious means will not last because when a person realizes he been had his backsliding would take even greater turn.

I have not thought about this possibility but it’s true that he came out with thread like “Are Catholics their own worst enemy?” that unfortunately could be used to put Catholicism in a negative light.

Let’s pray for each other that our hearts are always pure despite our differences simply because we had called ourselves Christians. Let us pray and behave like Christians.