Environmental Stewardship -energy savings, etc?

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Why not just let the market handle it? I have a fairly large house, but use less power than a lot of people with smaller houses, due to some of the things I incorporated when building.
Doesn’t the market already handle it? The more energy you use, the more your monthly energy bill. Big and efficient houses that use less energy than small inefficient houses have bills that are based on the actual useage and efficiency. But don’t the folks with inefficient homes have an obligation, via good stewardship, to add additional insulation, or switch to more efficient lighting, etc???
 
Why not just let the market handle it? I have a fairly large house, but use less power than a lot of people with smaller houses, due to some of the things I incorporated when building.

Rignt now I’m looking at a solar system that “sells” power back to the power company after meeting household needs – if it pans out, it would be good for both my family and the rest of the courntry.
Doesn’t the market already handle it? The more energy you use, the more your monthly energy bill. Big and efficient houses that use less energy than small inefficient houses have bills that are based on the actual useage and efficiency. But don’t the folks with inefficient homes have an obligation, via good stewardship, to add additional insulation, or switch to more efficient lighting, etc???
I have a fair amount of experience in this issue. The economist call this and “externality”. It goes like this if you produce a lot of pollution as burning trash, driving an SUV, dumping solvent into your property, etc, who pays? As you can not contain your pollution with most leaving through air (wind) and ground water your pollution cost are born by all of society. Additionally when you die what happens to the pollution then? Additionally, if you install vegetative roofs, permable drive and walk ways, and pay recycle cost who benefits? Since the water table (permable drive & walkways), air quality, and reduced landfill are benefits to all of society, is it right to require it of only a few? In summary the issues of pollution and energy conservation are legitimate government issues. The key to success is working within the free market system rather than crushing individual incentives.
 
Doesn’t the market already handle it? The more energy you use, the more your monthly energy bill. Big and efficient houses that use less energy than small inefficient houses have bills that are based on the actual useage and efficiency. But don’t the folks with inefficient homes have an obligation, via good stewardship, to add additional insulation, or switch to more efficient lighting, etc???
People have many obligations – and some people fail to live up to them. But laws and tax fiddling to make people into angels is simply bad policy.

Relatively few people have “big” houses. Many “big” houses being built today have all sorts of energy saving modifications. Older houses – even if smaller – are less energy efficient.
 
Many “big” houses being built today have all sorts of energy saving modifications. Older houses – even if smaller – are less energy efficient.
To this I am in total agreement. I had a 1300 sq ft home that was built in 1945. Even with storm windows it was difficult to heat. We did some remodeling and found the insulation in the walls was simply pieces of newspaper, it was still readable. We moved about 12 years ago to a new house nearly 3 times the size, our energy costs went down! I am constantly looking for ways to further cut energy costs.
It goes like this if you produce a lot of pollution as. . .driving an SUV. . .
Why do SUVs get such a bad rap? Other than a mini-van, there are few vehicles on the road that will cart around all the kids and their supplies in any reasonable level of comfort. I car-pool children daily to the Catholic school 2 towns north of where we live. I’m not sure they would fit into anything smaller than my mid-sized SUV. Between back packs, gym bags, lunch bags, etc. my car is FULL. No econo-box would hold that much. I suppose we don’t have to car-pool, and we could each take our kids individually to the school . . . but that would certainly consume more gas, emit more pollutants, etc.

I’m actually pretty sick and tired of hearing how people who drive SUVs are committing environemental attrocities.
 
To this I am in total agreement. I had a 1300 sq ft home that was built in 1945. Even with storm windows it was difficult to heat. We did some remodeling and found the insulation in the walls was simply pieces of newspaper, it was still readable. We moved about 12 years ago to a new house nearly 3 times the size, our energy costs went down! I am constantly looking for ways to further cut energy costs.
Our old ranch house was like that. There was no insulation under the floor, and your feet would get ice cold.

Newer houses can be made very energy efficient.
 
…Why do SUVs get such a bad rap? …I’m actually pretty sick and tired of hearing how people who drive SUVs are committing environemental attrocities.
As any other option if used properly the SUV is efficient, however, the fact is every day we see many, many people driving solo in SUV’s because they thing it is cool. And Frankly, it appears to be the vehicle of choice for bad drivers. A Toyota Camry gets 35mpg, while Ross’s F150 gets 11mpg. As mentioned earlier his pollution is in my lungs. Will the government have to step in? If so I hope they add $1,000 gas tax credit and (10,000 Camry miles or 3,300 F150 miles) add ~$2 per gallon gas tax. Usually I think of conspicuous consumption as silly however in the case of the SUV it is destructive.
 
As any other option if used properly the SUV is efficient, however, the fact is every day we see many, many people driving solo in SUV’s because they thing it is cool. And Frankly, it appears to be the vehicle of choice for bad drivers. A Toyota Camry gets 35mpg, while Ross’s F150 gets 11mpg. As mentioned earlier his pollution is in my lungs. Will the government have to step in? If so I hope they add $1,000 gas tax credit and (10,000 Camry miles or 3,300 F150 miles) add ~$2 per gallon gas tax. Usually I think of conspicuous consumption as silly however in the case of the SUV it is destructive.
My wife is a nurse. She leaves the house at about 5:30 every morning. She drives a quarter of a mile on an unpaved access road, 0.8 miles on an unpaved common road, and 3.6 miles on an unpaved county road. She has to cross a “low water bridge” – a slab of concrete in a creek bed. A couple of years ago, two boys were trying to cross that bridge after a rainstorm and their compact car was swept a hundred yards downstream.

Because of her job, she has to go to work regardless of the weather – rain, drought, snow, sleet, ice storm, you name it.

She drives an SUV – and she’s neither into conspicuous consumption nor a bad driver.
 
My wife is a nurse…Because of her job, she has to go to work regardless of the weather – rain, drought, snow, sleet, ice storm, you name it. She drives an SUV – and she’s neither into conspicuous consumption nor a bad driver.
A lot of city folks belonging to ‘informal economies’ :rolleyes: drive hummers and stretch limos. I say let the air out of their tires (and sometimes our SWAT teams oblige).

But folks in the country, as you say Vern, have to have the power to negotiate rough steep terrain, thick snow, ice, mud, floods, and so on. And that takes gas.

🤷
 
My wife is a nurse. She leaves the house at about 5:30 every morning. She drives a quarter of a mile on an unpaved access road, 0.8 miles on an unpaved common road, and 3.6 miles on an unpaved county road. She has to cross a “low water bridge” – a slab of concrete in a creek bed. A couple of years ago, two boys were trying to cross that bridge after a rainstorm and their compact car was swept a hundred yards downstream.

Because of her job, she has to go to work regardless of the weather – rain, drought, snow, sleet, ice storm, you name it.

She drives an SUV – and she’s neither into conspicuous consumption nor a bad driver.
As any other option if used properly the SUV is efficient, however, the fact is every day we see many, many people driving solo in SUV’s because they thing it is cool.

So which group do you think she belongs in?

BTW water crossing is truly dangerous and low gas mileage has no direct correlation to safety crossing water. The poor decision by “boys” may be leading you to a false sense of security concerning crossing water with an SUV. My dad used to tell stories about crossing water in his tanks (yes, tanks) They got 4 gallons to the mile (gas) or 4 miles to the gallon (diesel). Crossing water was a serious concern of tank commanders. I wish her well and hope she uses great caution. Though I am confused if she goes to work through high water when it is simply time to go?
 
As any other option if used properly the SUV is efficient, however, the fact is every day we see many, many people driving solo in SUV’s because they thing it is cool.

So which group do you think she belongs in?

BTW water crossing is truly dangerous and low gas mileage has no direct correlation to safety crossing water. The poor decision by “boys” may be leading you to a false sense of security concerning crossing water with an SUV.
High ground clearance, better traction and sheer mass make a difference.
My dad used to tell stories about crossing water in his tanks (yes, tanks) They got 4 gallons to the mile (gas) or 4 miles to the gallon (diesel). Crossing water was a serious concern of tank commanders. I wish her well and hope she uses great caution. Though I am confused if she goes to work through high water when it is simply time to go?
She’s Assistant Director of Nurses at a nursing home. This is a rural area, and a lot of less-motivated people “call in” when there’s bad weaher. She has to be there.
 
Vern, both my wife and I drive SUVs. We live about 5 or 6 miles outside of the closest town. Even with 4wd we have been snowed in for multiple days. When we could get out to the main roads, it was often another day or two before regular cars could negotiate them safely. We have constant problems with high water after heavy rains as the farm fields tend to run over the roadways in a few places and the extra ground clearance is necessary to pass.

I used to drive a fancy imported convertible, it was relegated to good weather use, and then eventually traded in to get a mid-sized SUV so I could get out to civilization as needed. Funny thing is we are less than a 1 hour drive from downtown Chicago so it is not like we live in an undeveloped area, it it just that once outside of the towns/cities, the world really is different.

Do I get great gas mileage? Nope. My VW Touareg averages about 16mpg combined with a 6 cylinder engine. My wife has a Volvo XC90, also wiht a 6 cylinder engine, she manages 16 or 17 miles per gallon. Every once in a we think about getting a “regular car” but then some weather event wakes us up again. Given that I operate a few small retail stores, sometimes I really wish I had a BIGGER SUV to carry stuff more efficiently/effectively, even if it got lower gas mileage.

But one thing I still gripe about is the comment about “driving solo” because I do that. Each morning I pick up children, we drive for about 10 miles together and then I drop them at school. I drive an additional 7 miles to my office “solo” and then return home all 17 miles “solo” each evening. There is usually tools, merchandise or other work related items in the cargo area of my SUV. At what point in my day am I to be judged for driving my SUV “solo” and who is qualified to judge me? I have no problem with a city driver who is driving a low fuel economy SUV. They are buying gas more often, and consequently paying fuel/road taxes far more often than someone in an econo-box car. So they are paying their fair share. In fact the city folk who drive SUVs probably drive far fewer miles per year than people like me who live outside of town . . . so while I may be using my SUV for so-called “legitimate” uses and they are just being “cool” the reality is that I am throwing a lot more pollution into the air than they are doing. I don’t see that as a problem either.
 
At what point in my day am I to be judged for driving my SUV “solo” and who is qualified to judge me?
This is the underlying question – why do so many of us presume we have the right to judge others, and when we find them wanting, use the power of government to make them conform?

I suspect some people’s idea of the perfect society would be like that of the ants in T.H. White’s The Once and Future King. “That which is not required is prohibited and that which is permitted is required.”
 
When you pollute your air it is your business. When you pollute my air it is my business. It seems you forgot to address your polluting of my air, how convenient.
 
When you pollute your air it is your business. When you pollute my air it is my business. It seems you forgot to address your polluting of my air, how convenient.
That seems only fair, after all, you pollute my air.😛
 
When you pollute your air it is your business. When you pollute my air it is my business. It seems you forgot to address your polluting of my air, how convenient.
No, I totally disagree with your point because it is senseless.

First, the government is penalizing the high gas users with greater taxes. While the tax rate is the same, those who use more fuel pay more tax. So there is already a ‘clean’ air penalty that is paid in greater amounts by SUV owner than by PRIUS owners simply because the SUV owner uses more fuel.

Secondly, it could easily be argued that electric cars and hybrid cars don’t have the same right to the road as “regular” cars because they are paying a disproportionately LOW amount of “road/fuel” taxes. Just in the past 12 months the state of Illinios actually cracked down on people who brew their own bio-diesel fuel because they were not paying fuel/road taxes, so the state actually leigitimized my arguement.

Third, you already said that folks like Vern’s wife have a legitimate use for their SUV. Under that guise, so do me and my wife as we are both rural residents. So you have already legitimized our use of SUVs. You can’t say that it is legitimate for me to use my SUV and then complain about YOUR air that I theoretically used.

Also, any modern SUV is going to pollute far less than any older vehicle on the roadway. So if you are going to judge owners by type of vehicle, it seems to me you should aim your anger at those vehicles that are the biggest causes of pollution. And don’t forget to judge all the folks who use charcoal in their BBQ grills, or mow their lawns with 2cycle mowers, or use weed wackers, chain saws, scooters, etc with 2 cycle engines or even the older 4cycle engines.
 
No, I totally disagree with your point because it is senseless.

First, the government is penalizing the high gas users with greater taxes. While the tax rate is the same, those who use more fuel pay more tax. So there is already a ‘clean’ air penalty that is paid in greater amounts by SUV owner than by PRIUS owners simply because the SUV owner uses more fuel.

Secondly, it could easily be argued that electric cars and hybrid cars don’t have the same right to the road as “regular” cars because they are paying a disproportionately LOW amount of “road/fuel” taxes. Just in the past 12 months the state of Illinios actually cracked down on people who brew their own bio-diesel fuel because they were not paying fuel/road taxes, so the state actually leigitimized my arguement.

Third, you already said that folks like Vern’s wife have a legitimate use for their SUV. Under that guise, so do me and my wife as we are both rural residents. So you have already legitimized our use of SUVs. You can’t say that it is legitimate for me to use my SUV and then complain about YOUR air that I theoretically used.

Also, any modern SUV is going to pollute far less than any older vehicle on the roadway. So if you are going to judge owners by type of vehicle, it seems to me you should aim your anger at those vehicles that are the biggest causes of pollution. And don’t forget to judge all the folks who use charcoal in their BBQ grills, or mow their lawns with 2cycle mowers, or use weed wackers, chain saws, scooters, etc with 2 cycle engines or even the older 4cycle engines.
That is funny I hope it was intended to be. You judged a link between Prius owners, fuel recyclers, lawn mowers, weed wackers, and barbeque cookers? Now you indicate $0.38 per gallon cleans the air and builds roads to? Wow, if that is true could we not increase to $1.00 a gallon and stop world hunger? I did not judge you nor your car I simply reminded you the issue is your pollution. My guess is you may feel guilty about producing more pollution than needed? FYI I smoke cigars, if I believed my cigars actually increase danger to others I would quit smoking them. I do not believe they cause a danger to others so I do not get upset about it. The SUV was not an issue when a few drove SUVs because the accumulative affect was small. Recently mass amounts of SUV are being driven so the affect is greatly increased. I am all for free markets, free markets have yet to deal with pollution control, maybe one day another solution will be found.
 
That is funny I hope it was intended to be. You judged a link between Prius owners, fuel recyclers, lawn mowers, weed wackers, and barbeque cookers
. . .
I am all for free markets, free markets have yet to deal with pollution control, maybe one day another solution will be found.
Actually I feel no guilt at all about my cars. I’ve been driving an SUV since before they were called SUVs and my first gift to my wife, instead of an engagement rind, was a downpayment on a Jeep Cherokee about 23 or 24 years ago. We’ve had at least 1 SUV for our entire marriage and its only been the last dozen years or so that they have been called SUVs or become politically incorrect.

But if you really are concerned about the environment, then you would know the damage that a charcoal grill or a 2cycle engine causes. The problem is most of the eco-nazis who blow wind about SUVs have no real clue about how much real pollution is spewed out by lawn mowers and BBQ grills.

BTW, each state has its own gas taxes, and allocates what it wants to use for clean air, road repair, etc. Even the gas used in your lawnmower is typcially subjected to those taxes. That is why people who make their own diesel via bio-diesel making kits run afoul of the laws and why some states are really cracking down on them.

Then you claim to be for free markets but errantly state they fail to deal with pollution. Clearly it is government intervetion that doesn’t deal effectively with pollution. Its the governments of the world who, through the regulation, impose all sorts of clean air standards on US industries but then EXCEMPT nations like China from the standards allowing them to undercut costs and simply move the pollution problem from here to there.

Sure our legislators claim to be eco-friendly when they vote, but they simply move the pollution souces to a place where people don’t have a voice to politically complain about it and they allow it.
 
Our old ranch house was like that. There was no insulation under the floor, and your feet would get ice cold.
We have issues with that now! Our house was built in the late 1960s. The windows leak, the kitchen floor gets COLD in the mornings in the winter. We do our best to make it as energy-efficient as we can; we do the plastic sheeting over the windows (makes a huge difference). We’re saving up the money to do the necessary work on the house to fix this, but until then, we do what we can.
This is the underlying question – why do so many of us presume we have the right to judge others, and when we find them wanting, use the power of government to make them conform?
This is what bothers me about the environmental movement. Instead of encouraging people to take responsibility for their lives, their role in the environment, too many people want Big Brother to come in and monitor us and dictate to us the minutia of daily living.

Most intelligent people are going to try to lead more energy efficient lives, to conserve gasoline and drive only when necessary, to be less wasteful of water and other resources, if for no other reason than it saves them money!

It’s interesting that you bring up the lightbulb issue, Melensdad. I got my latest copy of Vegetarian Times today and there were two letters to the editor from people concerned about mercury going into our landfills from those lightbulbs. I didn’t even realize that was an issue.
 
As any other option if used properly the SUV is efficient, however, the fact is every day we see many, many people driving solo in SUV’s because they thing it is cool.

So which group do you think she belongs in?

BTW water crossing is truly dangerous and low gas mileage has no direct correlation to safety crossing water. The poor decision by “boys” may be leading you to a false sense of security concerning crossing water with an SUV. My dad used to tell stories about crossing water in his tanks (yes, tanks) They got 4 gallons to the mile (gas) or 4 miles to the gallon (diesel). Crossing water was a serious concern of tank commanders. I wish her well and hope she uses great caution. Though I am confused if she goes to work through high water when it is simply time to go?
We can afford two vehicles. One is a small chevrolet that holds four and gts good gass mileage. The other is a GM Van that holds 8. Our family has seven in it. When both are need to be driven on some days the van might only have me in it as the car takes my husband to work. I had a woman curse at me one day because I was driving a van and was the only one in it.😃 IMHO she was a fool for her actions.

That van hauls people, groceries and other things that would require three cars to carry and thus use more gas then we use now. Also the van is safer and gets us there at the same time. LOL
 
There have been a couple threads where the enviornment has come up as a moral issue.

I wonder how far we are supposed to go to be good stewards to the environment, and who has the correct perspective on what is the “correct” way to be a good steward?
🤷
This area of thought certainly calls for prudential judgment. We are called to be good stewards of the earth. But, we must carefully examine any and all associations with secular environmental groups, as they tend to ally with athiestic and pro-abortion groups.

As to wildlife problems, it seems we would have to engage the state and local wildlife departments at some point on the predator issue. Talk about unintended consequences!

At home, I get my exercise turning lights OFF! I use CF bulbs where I can, but they’re nearly all Chinese now. This brings up the issues of slave labor, child labor and mandatory abortion in China. This is a tough call, because I have heard Catholic missionaries say that trade with China opens the door for them.

I do a lot of recycling. I don’t like the idea of burying tons of plastic, so I recycle everything I can. Aluminum uses LOTS of energy to produce, so I recycle all the aluminum I can. I crunch and donate soda cans to Catholic schools, who sell them.

I guess that if we do our part, we can make a difference. It may be hard to see sometimes, but God knows.

Christ’s peace be with all.
 
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